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Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors (Read 50168 times)

teestub

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Worth noting that Kieren Forrest didn't get worked going outdoors. He cruised a route that had totally shutdown Caff, Oli G, and took Robins endless sessions including one minus undies to save weight. I think that's the new benchmark - can you cruise routes that older wads have to shed their keks for.

Maybe this says as much of your current crop of ‘wads’ in N Wales when it comes to sport climbing as much as about the new breed 😆

wasbeen

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Competition climbing could end up being a bit like tennis. You could be number 5 in the UK and making peanuts (or a loss), barely known outside the community. Once you retire though burn-out and injury there may not be much to show other than a few medals from events in obscure places that the other athletes didn't go to because they thought they might get food poisoning.

teestub

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Competition climbing could end up being a bit like tennis. You could be number 5 in the UK and making peanuts (or a loss), barely known outside the community. Once you retire though burn-out and injury there may not be much to show other than a few medals from events in obscure places that the other athletes didn't go to because they thought they might get food poisoning.

Was interesting with this is a comparison so had a look. Jamie Murray is current British number 5 with a net worth of $6 million. Looks like most of the top British tennis people are worth a million or two.

petejh

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Is funny that I’m sat in van outside the cave waiting to go to LPT and there’s a 12 year-old here getting on Statement, a 15? Year-old on Infanticide (8c) and Kieren trying Big Bang. So maybe ther is some allure to outdoors. Or maybe it’s all distraction until the serious business of plastic comps resumes.

nai

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I imagine his worth is probably about right but that will be from doubles, where he has ranked world no 1 and is still quite high. A no. 5 singles ranking doesn't sound right, don't think he's played for ages. 
Current UK no 1, Dan Evans has career earnings of $3,000,000 in 14 years, probably some from sponsorship too but I'd guess with all the travel, coaches, physio etc there's not a lot of that left.

gme

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Have not even considered the financial side.

Don’t know much about it but would guess Shauna is making a lot more than Steve.
She is probably a good example as probably our only true world class comp climber, she is well ahead of all other females in uk, has climbed 8B+ but appears to have very little interest in outdoors or at best it’s a distant 2nd.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 06:20:11 pm by gme »

wasbeen

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Have not even considered the financial side.

Don’t know much about it but would guess Shauna is making a lot more than Steve.
She is probably a good example as probably our only true world class comp climber, she is well ahead of all other females in uk, has climbed 8B+ but appears to have very little interest in outdoors or at best it’s a distant 2nd best.

More than money, I guess she is pretty much the only person in the UK who can accurately describe themselves as a full-time professional climber (Molly, Will?).

Aussiegav

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I would be really interested if any of these uber wads leave a legacy / or have ambitions to a have a legacy in climbing like those did in the 80's & 90's.

When was the last cult climbing movie? yet week in week out we see new movies published and to be fair, they morph into one.

Maybe its becoming like tennis, and other sports like surfing, where the charisma and personalities are forgone for the pursuit of excellence and corporate appeal?

The other thing to consider is that we live in the 10mins of fame generation. Perhaps, for these guys at the elite level, doing routes/boulder problems of yesteryear or outside just doesn't generate the 'likes' & 'shares' from their peers. 
maybe for them, doing route routes from the 80s, 90s & 00s is a novelty retro thing??

in regards to the OP, i imagine all countries will have their hardest climbing indoors,  its where you can control the environment most to push the difficultly with least effort.

Look at skateboarding, gymnastics (once an outdoor pursuit), surfing (new wave pools). the level difficulty will rise, but its probably going to really boring to watch unless you're doing it.

post edit:
(I wasn't being critical or judgemental, we all have our reasons for climbing. More of a reflective questioning)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 07:40:02 pm by oldfella »

Yossarian

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I arrived in Sheffield back in '96. By then, all Dawes' famous hard routes were 10 or 12 years old. To an 18-year old, that felt like ancient history and I couldn't believe how few repeats there'd been and next to no style improvements.

I can't really fathom how the top youths today view routes like Liquid Ambar and Hubble which are now 30 years old. For me, that would have been '66, the year Flying Buttress Direct was finally freed. How motivated would you be to go out and get worked by something that old when down the wall you're a hot new thing at the cutting edge? Youths will either engage with the outdoors or drop out.

I don't see any 'future' for the sport indoors because what the sport has always been about is tracing acts of history across the actual, physical landscape. The piece of rock becomes associated with the creator and stands as a testpiece across time. That's a huge difference with most sports - a peak performance in climbing is also a creative act of enduring public sculpture. That can't happen indoors so it will be a different, more conventional sport where a winner is chip-paper tomorrow and a loser the week after. There may be the odd memorable moment but I can't see much of that making it into the history books. Those will continue to be written  outdoors, where there is no lack of inspiring new climbs being drawn on an everlasting canvas we can all go and visit.

This, exactly. It reminds me of that Fred Nicole bit in Hueco at the beginning of one of the Masters of Stone films - something along the lines of, “More than the climbing, I am impressed by the creativity of the nature”...

I started writing about how, as the parent of an 8 year old comp climber in her first season, I found the whole experience surprisingly toxic. That’s mostly off topic but, even the the younger age groups, it was so competitive and stressful that I can see why most kids might end up viewing outdoor climbing as an unwelcome distraction, or an annoying thing they get asked by relatives.

Personally, my proudest moment of the whole season was when she told one of her coaches she would rather be in Font, shortly before coming second in her first Blokfest.

In terms of organised sport and flying fucks given, I went to a school where the entire social hierarchy was based on one’s ability at rugby - a sport like many others I now express absolutely zero interest in. Climbing was something I discovered through both a maverick relative and an amazingly-inspiring teacher, and which provided the perfect blend of nonconformity / danger / adventure. It’s quite depressing that, these days a 15-year old might be more syked about getting over-caffeinated sugary drink company sponsorship and a signature hang board than the prospect of dossing in Verdon for a month after their GCSEs...

spidermonkey09

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Interesting discussion. I think I fall somewhere between JB's "jumpers for goalposts" vision and GME's slightly more cynical interpretation. I do think that the comp trained youth are streets ahead of crimp hardened outdoor climbers in terms of their potential to get up hard stuff.You can see this in microcosm lower down the food chain in the current UK sport climbing scene where strong guys in their early 20's honed on boards are pissing up 8's in a few sessions through sheer surplus power!

Regarding cult climbing films, I'm not sure something can be 'cult' if its part of the mainstream can it? Climbing is now firmly part of popular culture and so by definition any film that becomes halfway popular also is surely. Perhaps the closest example is Ricky Bells stuff.

Yossarian

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In terms of hard climbing (and I realise this is something I know much less about), for every indoor uberwad who’s figured out how to translate his or her ability to rock there are a dozen or more “look at my 159 / 1-armed-three-course-burrito-challenge” Insta-twats who make a lot of noise but get shut down everywhere except Magic Wood / narrowly scrape themselves up a holiday 8b over a 2 week trip.

London and the SE is rife with this sort of stuff, which is why I thought Jim Pope’s vid was so great because it might persuade some of them that there’s more to climbing than flexing on the rings at Yonder.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2020, 01:18:52 pm by Yossarian »

BRidal

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I had written out a long reply to this thread since I felt obliged to defend my generation a bit, but the site timed me out and deleted my spiel so you're getting this instead.

Competitions are harder to do well in, require more time invested, and are a better representation of you're overall climbing ability than any one route could ever be, therefore they are a more rewarding pursuit. We'll get around to doing hard stuff outdoors when we're too old for triple dyno's.  :worms:

Mark Lloyd

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Maybe you should take your triple dynos outside Billy's, Johnny Dawes probably has a few old projects

Yossarian

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Your indoor stuff / training, etc is obviously totally hardcore / rad and you are also at the top of your game. I'm not dissing you in the slightest. I just quite enjoy hearing about people who can't do 147 ticking hard 8Bs in quick time vs (far less talented but) strong wall wads making a massive meal of outdoor board problems.

In the same vein as the Jim Pope vid, I maintain that Toru Nakajima's Alone on the Peak is one of the most profound climbing films of the last decade or so. I find it mind-blowing that a comp climber so young could come to the UK so ill-prepared in some areas (language) but so exquisitely-prepared in others (syke / ability / tenacity) and rip everything up. Please don't tell me he was more excited about some comp results that season.

Ditto Ondra's syke to try Belly Full of Bad Berries, and having the contrition to admit that, despite having the greatest ever accumulation of climbing-specific skill / strength / self-knowledge and determination, he knew he was going to flail on it.

teestub

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In the same vein as the Jim Pope vid, I maintain that Toru Nakajima's Alone on the Peak is one of the most profound climbing films of the last decade or so. I find it mind-blowing that a comp climber so young could come to the UK so ill-prepared in some areas (language) but so exquisitely-prepared in others (syke / ability / tenacity) and rip everything up. Please don't tell me he was more excited about some comp results that season.


That crack climbing apprenticeship has already served Ondra well in one comp, and if Bishton is down for the Olympics I’m sure he’ll get another crack there!

All of Toru’s video output that I’ve seen has been really great, his take on climbing seems to be so deep and thoughtful. Worth checking out the Lucid Dreaming vid and the waterfall climbing one of you haven’t watched them

abarro81

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Competitions are harder to do well in, require more time invested, and are a better representation of you're overall climbing ability than any one route could ever be, therefore they are a more rewarding pursuit.

Tell that to an onsight ascent of Salathe... ;)

I find two things interesting here:
1. One route? What about many routes? Comparing multiple comps to one route is potentially a bit of a straw man, it's like comparing doing 1 quick tick to 1 project. The comparison would surely be a season of comps to a season of climbing all over the world?
2. The implication is that how rewarding climbing is is purely based on how hard it is, unless I've misunderstood? Are there no reward points of badassness? E.g. I find 50m routes more rewarding than boulders because I find them more badass and enjoy the process more. So I'm more pleased to have done Tom et je ris than any 8B I've done, even though it's less challenging. I wonder if this is a mindset difference between those coming up through comps vs through outdoors? Or just me misunderstanding your post.. (not me dissing boulders, insert your preference there, be it big walls, cave sport routes, aesthetic aretes etc)

Fiend

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Good discussion guys. I'm probably somewhere in the middle viewpoint as far as any qualitive aspect goes, but I do agree with gme that the potential for comp climbers with their extreme physical prowess at climbing movement (as opposed to just campussing) is likely to be an increasingly effective springboard to hard outside #sends

gme

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I had written out a long reply to this thread since I felt obliged to defend my generation a bit, but the site timed me out and deleted my spiel so you're getting this instead.

Competitions are harder to do well in, require more time invested, and are a better representation of you're overall climbing ability than any one route could ever be, therefore they are a more rewarding pursuit. We'll get around to doing hard stuff outdoors when we're too old for triple dyno's.  :worms:

Billy. Nothing to defend. I am all for the comps and think it’s going to take things forward. My post was never meant as a negative at all.

I am not saying one route is better than the other but think that the future boundaries are going to be pushed by ex comp climbers who’s level of training is going to make them physically much better.

Most people on here are old and come from a what to us is a traditional route where new routes etc are held in high regard. Unfortunately for your generation this isn’t going to be the case in the Uk as there isn’t much left, especially ground breaking.

Bonjoy

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I think there's a better alternative future that hasn't really been considered by many yet. Whether it ever happens is anyone's guess and I suppose depends on a whole lot of factors, not least someone with a wad of cash and influence getting the ball rolling.
That is, permanent artificial boulder problems. Could be indoors or out. Stand alone lines of the utmost quality and difficulty. Perhaps designed/set by the best comp setters and hard FAers. Perhaps with a cash prize for whoever's gets the FA. A new type of competition could be built around sets of them. With easier but equally good lines built beside them. Then left in place for all to try afterwards.
This would retain many of the best aspects of natural climbing and first ascents, whilst bypassing the ultimate show stopper I.e. the ever increasing difficulty of finding the next grade of climb. As things stand it's not the ability of climbers that has slowed growth in outdoor standards, it's the fact that every time grades go up the gap between too easy and impossible gets smaller and finding natural features that fit in that gap eventually gets nigh on impossible.

colin8ll

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There's a gym in Sweden with a permanent route and associated competition. It's branded as The Project https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2017/02/the_project_-_a_unique_competition_in_stockholm-70948


Fwiw I can't imagine climbers getting motivated enough by something contrived to really put in the work to push things forward here. I think king lines will reign supreme for some time to come. Sharma certainly doesn't seem to be running out of great looking DWS lines.

Bonjoy

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There's a gym in Sweden with a permanent route and associated competition. It's branded as The Project https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2017/02/the_project_-_a_unique_competition_in_stockholm-70948


Fwiw I can't imagine climbers getting motivated enough by something contrived to really put in the work to push things forward here. I think king lines will reign supreme for some time to come. Sharma certainly doesn't seem to be running out of great looking DWS lines.
This is only half of what I have in mind. These climbs are still coloured plastic blobs on plywood and hence no more inspiring, and little more permanent than any other indoor climb.
To be properly inspiring and permanent (and for practical purposes I'm only thinking boulders here, not routes) you'd want sculpted pseudo-rock installations. Kind of like the built boulders you get in some city parks, but of far higher quality, and with well designed stand alone lines, rather than loads of random holds for making eliminates. The whole point is, there is no practical reason (excluding money) that boulder problems every bit as good as the best natural lines can't be built. And if you can build something as good as the best lines in Rocklands/Font/Grampians etc, it stands to reason you can build things even better and crucially for this debate, harder.
With the right construction you could build a master copy, laser scan it and then have copies built all over the world ( a la Moonboard) and a prize for the first filmed and witnessed ascent.
Making the world's hardest boulder might be an iterative process with multiple top level climber adding a move each to the prototype copy, before the finished article is fixed and the FA attempted.

SA Chris

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I was going to say similar Bonjoy. I think that the downfall of high level comps is the temporary nature of the competition "landscape". Once the Olympics is over, the final routes and problems will be packed away and never climbed again (speed excepted obv.)

Is this unique in current Summer Olympic sports? Only other I can think of is showjumping. All other sports you can try run 100m, swim a 50m or vault a standard horse anywhere in the world.

There could possibly be a market for replicating Olympic routes, or doing as Bonjoy says above, otherwise the routes on rock are the best "immovable" benchmark of your performance as a climber to see how you measure up to others.

Agree this is a great discussion.

abarro81

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Is this unique in current Summer Olympic sports?

Although subtly different, because the arena/playing field is fixed, I would think of many other sports as being the broadly the same - football, tennis, boxing, hockey, judo etc. You can't replicate playing against a certain team/opponent at a certain point in time for those sports - there's the same fleeting nature to the challenge, and it's hard to compare the best now to the best of bygone eras (unlike running, jumping, throwing etc).

teestub

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Is this unique in current Summer Olympic sports? Only other I can think of is showjumping. All other sports you can try run 100m, swim a 50m or vault a standard horse anywhere in the world.

The Mountain biking courses, and I guess to a lesser extent the cycling road race and any running road race courses, although of course they are still there post Olympics, just a little harder to access! Also the kayak stuff, they normally have a special course for that stuff to I think?

Nutty

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Is this unique in current Summer Olympic sports? Only other I can think of is showjumping. All other sports you can try run 100m, swim a 50m or vault a standard horse anywhere in the world.
BMX, mountain bike, canoe/kayak? Marathon, triathlon and road cycling to a degree (the courses won't be the same anywhere else)?

(Sorry, just seen teestub covered most of these).

 

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