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Topic split: The future of hard climbing in the UK is probably indoors (Read 50185 times)

Wil

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One hard-to-predict aspect is how many people compete who have already qualified, since this affects the scoring too - so Ondra might compete, and by competing mean that Will does/doesn't qualify if the maths works out right vs other competitors who can still get a place

This is a very weird aspect of the scoring. It would make more sense for the qualifying to be scored only on those eligible, but still not fair due to the speed head to head. There are some interesting scenarios as well where one competitor can benefit disproportionately from someone else's mistake, leapfrogging someone else despite no change in their performances.

Anyway, key point is only one European place. It's a big ask!

gme

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There is a short interview on UKC with Kieran Forrestt about him doing LA.

Interesting quote at the end which sums up what my point was about the future WADs more likely to come from a comp background than the outdoor route.

"I still have goals I want to achieve competitively in Seniors. I also think the discipline of training focuses you on improving technique and strength which has allowed me to get onto routes like Liquid Ambar."

The level of focused training that is now happening for the comps and the standard that your required to be at to do well in them is going to to lead to the stuff being done outside not being that hard. Other than Ondra i think all of the top route climbers of this generation have come from this background. Schubert, Megos, Ghisolfi.  Also Ondra often seems to have upped his levels after a period focusing on comp training.

Contentious but i think outdoor climbing basically gets in the way of progress and I think the grades will go up a notch after the olympics next year.

petejh

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Much of the above seems to make sense. However we're talking more about repeats of existing hard routes and less about establishing new hard routes. It's still progress of a sort - progressing the pack of hard repeaters. But not progressing new climbs at cutting-edge levels.The two things possibly require very different mindsets and motivations. Not many people doing the new stuff, are the more comp-focused climbers bothered?

teestub

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I guess it depends whether you’re talking about actually bolting and cleaning or just climbing open projects? Can imagine some of these companies wads having a week holiday in Spain and Sharma pointing them at a 9b+ to try. Likewise when you see what Schubert did in a couple of days in Magic Wood, you can imagine him doing and 8C and above FA between training if it suited him.

I think actual bolting and discovering new boulders is still going to be the mainstay if hoary old frontiersmen.

gme

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I totally agree but suggest these hoary old frontiersman will be ex comp climbers. I guess fair few of them will turn there attention to outside once they are past there best at comps.

Other than Ondra not many of the cutting edge bolt there own routes now to be honest, generally go round mopping up old projects that were bolted by people who couldn't do them. Most of Sharmas early stuff, including Biography, was and i dont think megos, schubert or Ghisolfi have bolted anything (the later only recently).

I am not sure about Mutation or his other stuff at the Tor but i know Leachy bolted rainshadow and northern lights and Paul Ingham bolted Overshadow. North star was an old project(maybe pingham or Steve Dunning/Gresham) as well so only Rainman is steves own work.

gme

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PS this is the kind of shit i come on here for not politics or virus stuff. What the site was about years ago.

petejh

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Yeah agree with you there, tis a climbing site and a bit of politics and current affairs is fine, but 5 people endlessly shit-talking about politics, covid and trump loses appeal after a while. (and yes I'm aware I'm guilty of it!)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 02:33:14 pm by petejh »

dunnyg

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Slightly off topic, did Dave Macleod ever do any comps?

Johnny Brown

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I arrived in Sheffield back in '96. By then, all Dawes' famous hard routes were 10 or 12 years old. To an 18-year old, that felt like ancient history and I couldn't believe how few repeats there'd been and next to no style improvements.

I can't really fathom how the top youths today view routes like Liquid Ambar and Hubble which are now 30 years old. For me, that would have been '66, the year Flying Buttress Direct was finally freed. How motivated would you be to go out and get worked by something that old when down the wall you're a hot new thing at the cutting edge? Youths will either engage with the outdoors or drop out.

I don't see any 'future' for the sport indoors because what the sport has always been about is tracing acts of history across the actual, physical landscape. The piece of rock becomes associated with the creator and stands as a testpiece across time. That's a huge difference with most sports - a peak performance in climbing is also a creative act of enduring public sculpture. That can't happen indoors so it will be a different, more conventional sport where a winner is chip-paper tomorrow and a loser the week after. There may be the odd memorable moment but I can't see much of that making it into the history books. Those will continue to be written  outdoors, where there is no lack of inspiring new climbs being drawn on an everlasting canvas we can all go and visit.

ali k

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Slightly off topic, did Dave Macleod ever do any comps?
He did at least one of the BUSA comps when he was doing his degree, around the same time Dave Barrans was competing for Manchester. Can’t remember how he did in it but Barrans used to win everything. No idea about proper comps though.

Liamhutch89

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On what draws climbers to comps vs outdoors, i'm sure some part of it must be sponsorship and career related, but then I wonder if comp climbers actually do better in that regard?

Excluding Honnold who has enjoyed one-off crossover appeal and Ondra who does a bit of both better than everyone, my guess would be that those more known for their outdoor achievements and, perhaps even more importantly, portraying the 'lifestyle' element of climbing (Sharma, Woods, Webb, et al.) do better from sponsorship than the top comp climbers. But I may be totally wrong on that.

dunnyg

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Cheers, I had a cursory rapid google and didn't find any evidence - i'd guess he would shout about it somewhere if he won any "proper" comps etc..

gme

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I arrived in Sheffield back in '96. By then, all Dawes' famous hard routes were 10 or 12 years old. To an 18-year old, that felt like ancient history and I couldn't believe how few repeats there'd been and next to no style improvements.

I can't really fathom how the top youths today view routes like Liquid Ambar and Hubble which are now 30 years old. For me, that would have been '66, the year Flying Buttress Direct was finally freed. How motivated would you be to go out and get worked by something that old when down the wall you're a hot new thing at the cutting edge? Youths will either engage with the outdoors or drop out.

I don't see any 'future' for the sport indoors because what the sport has always been about is tracing acts of history across the actual, physical landscape. The piece of rock becomes associated with the creator and stands as a testpiece across time. That's a huge difference with most sports - a peak performance in climbing is also a creative act of enduring public sculpture. That can't happen indoors so it will be a different, more conventional sport where a winner is chip-paper tomorrow and a loser the week after. There may be the odd memorable moment but I can't see much of that making it into the history books. Those will continue to be written  outdoors, where there is no lack of inspiring new climbs being drawn on an everlasting canvas we can all go and visit.

So says the 40 year old hippy nature loving grit fondler. My kids dont give a flying fuck about any of that and whilst not into climbing are only interested in the latest footy and rugby players not that England won the world cup in 1966/2003 nor stories about the history of it all.

I think to most people coming through climbing walls climbing is a sport just like any other and unfortunately the canvas isn't relevant anymore.

I must point out i am not saying this is a bad thing, just different.

teestub

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That's a huge difference with most sports - a peak performance in climbing is also a creative act of enduring public sculpture. That can't happen indoors so it will be a different, more conventional sport where a winner is chip-paper tomorrow and a loser the week after.

I could see your point of view for most of it, but I think you went a bit off track here. Every sport has legendary figures from the past that endure through the ages, none of whom became ‘chip paper’ when they lost their peak performance.

petejh

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That's all a bit jumpers for goalposts JB (but I like it).

Worth noting that Kieren Forrest didn't get worked going outdoors. He cruised a route that had totally shutdown Caff, Oli G, and took Robins endless sessions including one minus undies to save weight. I think that's the new benchmark - can you cruise routes that older wads have to shed their keks for.

I wonder if the added drive that comes from competing and which seems like nectar to these indoor comp climbers is also what drives forward standards outside - when the competitive instinct gets transferred out to the crag by indoor adversaries trying the same projects? 
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 04:18:07 pm by petejh »

gme

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30 year old 8cs are basically piss in the bigger scheme of things and any of the kids who compete at a world level would walk up it if they were bothered.

Its us old buggers who keep the myths going.

remus

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Worth noting that Kieren Forrest didn't get worked going outdoors. He cruised a route that had totally shutdown Caff, Oli G, and took Robins endless sessions including one minus undies to save weight. I think that's the new benchmark - can you cruise routes that older wads have to shed their keks for.

Where does this one-upmanship end? Are the wads of the future going to rock up to LPT, do a few laps on LA in a down expedition suit and a pair of ankle weights then head home for another fingerboard session?

galpinos

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I could see your point of view for most of it, but I think you went a bit off track here. Every sport has legendary figures from the past that endure through the ages, none of whom became ‘chip paper’ when they lost their peak performance.

That will depend how well the indoor game endures. Legendary figures are created in sports by the stories told about them. Will the indoor game be compelling enough for those stories to be written and to engage and enthral the next generation like the the stories of "hoary old frontiersman" did to us?

My bookshelves have a lot of climbing books on them, I'm struggling to find one full of engaging tales* of comp climbing?

*Jerry's book does talk about comps but it's not the comps that made Jerry a legendary figure......

petejh

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Worth noting that Kieren Forrest didn't get worked going outdoors. He cruised a route that had totally shutdown Caff, Oli G, and took Robins endless sessions including one minus undies to save weight. I think that's the new benchmark - can you cruise routes that older wads have to shed their keks for.

Where does this one-upmanship end? Are the wads of the future going to rock up to LPT, do a few laps on LA in a down expedition suit and a pair of ankle weights then head home for another fingerboard session?
Just do it in greasy connies.

While we're on the topic of LPT, indoor wads, and progressing standards. There's a fully bolted new proj bang in the middle of LPT that will likely be 9a+ or harder. What could possibly (or to us, should) be more enticing to a young wad than to make the sort of history JB's talking about? Coming third indoors? :thumbsdown:

We're interested in Neil Carson because of his new routes - Big Bang chief among them. Not so much because he did alright in comps at some point. Could be the same for whoever puts up the LPT proj, bit more of legacy than a comp result.

gme

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Just do it in greasy connies.

While we're on the topic of LPT, indoor wads, and progressing standards. There's a fully bolted new proj bang in the middle of LPT that will likely be 9a+ or harder. What could possibly (or to us, should) be more enticing to a young wad than to make the sort of history JB's talking about? Coming third indoors? :thumbsdown:

Bronze at olympics or world champs i would suggest would be better.

petejh

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I think you're being a little bit provocative for the sake of the debate there. No way, years later, that most climbers will remember (or particularly care) who came third in the Olympic climbing. Like nobody really cares very much who were the beaten finalists in world cups or euro championships. It just doesn't resonate emotionally unless you're a very special sort of stat-o-tron.

gme

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I could see your point of view for most of it, but I think you went a bit off track here. Every sport has legendary figures from the past that endure through the ages, none of whom became ‘chip paper’ when they lost their peak performance.

That will depend how well the indoor game endures. Legendary figures are created in sports by the stories told about them. Will the indoor game be compelling enough for those stories to be written and to engage and enthral the next generation like the the stories of "hoary old frontiersman" did to us?

My bookshelves have a lot of climbing books on them, I'm struggling to find one full of engaging tales* of comp climbing?

*Jerry's book does talk about comps but it's not the comps that made Jerry a legendary figure......

I am not suggesting that indoors will repace outdoors more that the apprentice route for the best will be different.

Most kids get there fix through youtube or similar not books now anyway and it will only be more so in the future. I must admit even as an old fella i find watching the comps far more exciting than 99% of the outdoor climbing stuff.

gme

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I think you're being a little bit provocative for the sake of the debate there. No way would most remember (or particularly care) who came third in the Olympic climbing. Like nobody really cares very much who were the beaten finalists in world cups or euro championships. It just doesn't resonate emotionally unless you're a very special sort of stat-o-tron.

You miss understood. I dont mean what would be most memorable to the general public i was talking about the athlete. I bet the lad who did LA would prefer a bronze medal than that 1st ascent any day of the week.

Doylo

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, and took Robins endless sessions including one minus undies to save weight. I think that's the new

Plus no chalkbag and a 8mm rope.

teestub

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That will depend how well the indoor game endures. Legendary figures are created in sports by the stories told about them. Will the indoor game be compelling enough for those stories to be written and to engage and enthral the next generation like the the stories of "hoary old frontiersman" did to us?

My bookshelves have a lot of climbing books on them, I'm struggling to find one full of engaging tales* of comp climbing?

I agree entirely looking back at current climbing history, but indoor climbing and climbing comps are in a different position in terms of popularity to where they have been previously.

I think it’s the nature of any competitive events to create spectacle and legends, but whether this leads to any coffee table books time will tell. It will certainly lead to a lot of YouTube clicks though!

 

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