[duncan]

Interesting discussion.  Pembroke, Dorset and Devon all have big caves or other areas of very steep rock which are untouched or barely developed and could have the potential for super-routes. They will need a really driven developer and first ascentionist, probably a local, in the mold of a Pete Oxley or Neil Carson: they will have very fickle conditions and are frequently a pain to access.

[Alex-the-Alex]

Agreed, good chat. Similar to Duncans point. For the primed Hercules of the indoor arena days spent stripping ivy and trundling flakes cant seem that appealing either. Any time spent hunting new routes and boulders or cleaning and bolting is time away from training. Unless you have truly unlimited time to climb and you can make that your free/recovery days. But the days spent cleaning often leave you more wiped than climbing.. And you’de have to explain to coach why you’ve got a scrittly eye infection, rashes up to your elbows and possibly lymes disease. Similarly, any and all of the major training centres are often near the main cities/hubs and a long way from the wild hoary frontiers where the biggest cliffs and monsters still wait. Until Broadford opens its gaelic climbing academy most of these places are still a fair way to travel and a big commitment away from the training halls for the young olympians.

Artificial boulders will be well cool. But the limits of climbing are always going to be on real rock. No matter how good artificial walls and boulders get there will always be something harder on rock, its just harder to find. The thing about indoor setting and 3d printed designer boulders is that they’ll always be designed within or just beyond the limits of climbers at that point in time. Once the design process is deliberate and human there’ll always be a subconscious element of making it just possible or in the fashion of the times.

[SA Chris]

The only limit on what can be transported currently is the strength of our roads. The pressure below the tires/tracks is the limiting factor and this cannot be reduced because it can already be spread over the maximum footprint of our road lanes.

If the load is spread you can go a lot heavier, but why would you bother?

https://osagespecial.com/2018/08/five-of-the-biggest-things-ever-moved-on-the-road/

Wouldn't want to take it over Snake Pass though!

I'm sure there are many caves like Dave Mac's Arisaig one littering the remote parts of the coastline.

The Cannibal Cave has curiously seen little development! https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofScotland/Sawney-Bean-Scotlands-most-famous-cannibal/

[sdm]

If the load is spread you can go a lot heavier, but why would you bother?

Exactly. We are already at the hard limit of what can be transported over our roads unless you start going for very disruptive practices.

https://osagespecial.com/2018/08/five-of-the-biggest-things-ever-moved-on-the-road/

Wouldn't want to take it over Snake Pass though!

Other than the Saudi evaporator, I'm not sure what the rest of them are doing in an article on the "biggest things ever moved by road".

[tomtom]

From working on river bank protection that often uses large boulders. Once these get above 10 tonnes (eg 2.5 by 2 by 1m then you get into a whole new range of logistical problems - from the low loaders needed to move them down to the size of the machinery required to place them (and the machines to transport the machinery..). Basically it suddenly costs a shit load more once you get above a certain size.

It would be much more cost effective to buy an old quarry and make things out of the sides. With a big cafe and car park in the middle obvs.

[Franco]

I have no idea what’s left to do in Scotland and am sure that there will be harder stuff done yet in the uk but I feel it’s more likely to be done by x comp beasts who grow tired of chasing the five rings not someone who’s come through the grades outside.  This was my original point.

 That depends more on loads of factors. EG a uk ethics decision to allow bolting of volcanic rock would open up lots of sport projects but remove lots of death 9's from the trad scene.

Is it really the case that there are cutting edge (9b and up)sport routes to do on volcanic rock. Surely if there is these could be bolted as I don’t think they will become future trad routes.

Surely you can see how daft this comment is? You could have said this prior to every past improvement in Trad standards.  Do you honestly think that no one is ever going to climb a Trad 9b?

There is no logic that we can call on to decide what we do and don't bolt. It is an entirely political decision, based on what people value at the time. We just have to be careful in that process not to knacker stuff up for future generations, as best we can.  There's never a perfect solution.  The Trad ethic in this country has arguably damaged the sport scene, and the bolting of stuff like the slate has done the same to the next level of Trad. Fortunately we have nowhere near exhausted the rock in these islands.

[Bonjoy]

Artificial boulders will be well cool. But the limits of climbing are always going to be on real rock. No matter how good artificial walls and boulders get there will always be something harder on rock, its just harder to find. The thing about indoor setting and 3d printed designer boulders is that they’ll always be designed within or just beyond the limits of climbers at that point in time. Once the design process is deliberate and human there’ll always be a subconscious element of making it just possible or in the fashion of the times.

I don't buy this at all. It just reflects the current limited expectations and demands on setters and hence what setters produce. Can the species that produced Einstein and Mozzart not produce a setter capable of making a better arete than Angle Parfait? Creating a permanent masterpiece would be a whole different discipline, maybe more suited to time served developers rather than indoor setters. Developers know what makes a new problem work, the importance of the random factor, and what ruins a problem. In many ways all they'd have to do is replicate a flawed almost perfect outdoor line (these are ten a penny compared to actual perfect lines) and fix the defects and tweak/exaggerate the parameters of the best moves. Not rocket science and certainly a skill that would get better and better with practice.

[Alex-the-Alex]

Yes I don’t disagree with that. Setters and technology probably will allow better problems than exist in nature to be fabricated. But if you are creating something with an audience and a purpose its almost always going to be within the limits of what you think possible at that time. And whats desired. I don’t know much about setting but im guessing all route setters at the tippy top level set their problems within a narrow band of what they feel is possible and just beyond possible for the climbers in the n minutes they get to try them? Thats likely be the same for these designer boulders. An unclimbable fabricated arete wouldnt be a boulder it would be a sculpture, art. But that’s maybe where your Mozart comes in?

I realise its stating the obvious that theres always something harder on real rock but I think its likely to stay true for a while yet. Strange thing is that if these boulder fabricators get good enough the desire to go out and find the next generation of pure hard lines is likely to dry up even more as the chance of finding those lines in nature gets slimmer and the fake boulders get better.

[SA Chris]

Do any of the artificial boulders in England have any inkling of something decent?

I've only been to the ones in Glasgow, and think they are pretty good, some interesting features, and seem to have stood up to use, although the material is pretty harsh on the skin.

[Ru]

... and Mozzart ...

Half composer, half cheese.

[SA Chris]

perfect complement to half man, half biscuit.

[gme]

I have no idea what’s left to do in Scotland and am sure that there will be harder stuff done yet in the uk but I feel it’s more likely to be done by x comp beasts who grow tired of chasing the five rings not someone who’s come through the grades outside.  This was my original point.

 That depends more on loads of factors. EG a uk ethics decision to allow bolting of volcanic rock would open up lots of sport projects but remove lots of death 9's from the trad scene.

Is it really the case that there are cutting edge (9b and up)sport routes to do on volcanic rock. Surely if there is these could be bolted as I don’t think they will become future trad routes.

Surely you can see how daft this comment is? You could have said this prior to every past improvement in Trad standards.  Do you honestly think that no one is ever going to climb a Trad 9b?

To be honest yes i do think that people wont climb trad 9b. Maybe some very hard crack might get done like recovery drink but thats it. The hardest trad trad routes now are 8b+ or 8c i think, so a full number grade lower which means that we will need to be climbing 10b to get to a point where 9b trad is being done.

It takes about 10 years to go up a half letter grade so 10b is 40+ years away but this will probably slow down. 8a+ trad was done in 1983 so we have only moved one and a half letter grades in nearly 40 years. I will most likely be dead by then so my thought process struggles beyond these time frames and by then we will probably have invented some kind of suction device that will make all routes a sports climb.

On top of that there are a lot of other things that stack up to give me confidence i am right.

Hard Trad climbing is a niche pastime and i suggest will become even more so.

None of the really good climbers have any interest in it. And i am talking really good here not 9a which is barely into half decent these days.

The traditional trad crags dont give opportunities for 9b routes and all the 9bs on the sports crags that would fit the bill for a hard trad route will be already bolted

Obviously if we all turn in to woodlice then it will be possible.

[SA Chris]

I for one welcome our new woodlouse overlords.

[Ally Smith]

To be honest yes i do think that people wont climb trad 9b. Maybe some very hard crack might get done like recovery drink but thats it. The hardest trad trad routes now are 8b+ or 8c i think, so a full number grade lower which means that we will need to be climbing 10b to get to a point where 9b trad is being done.

Isn't Tribe at Cadarese supposed to be in the 9a/+ range on trad gear? Even if there's an element of hype in the comparisons drawn in the article below, it still sounds harder than 8c.

https://www.planetmountain.com/en/news/interviews/jacopo-larcher-tribe-his-most-difficult-trad-climb-at-cadarese.html

[MischaHY]

To be honest yes i do think that people wont climb trad 9b. Maybe some very hard crack might get done like recovery drink but thats it. The hardest trad trad routes now are 8b+ or 8c i think, so a full number grade lower which means that we will need to be climbing 10b to get to a point where 9b trad is being done.

Isn't Tribe at Cadarese supposed to be in the 9a/+ range on trad gear? Even if there's an element of hype in the comparisons drawn in the article below, it still sounds harder than 8c.

https://www.planetmountain.com/en/news/interviews/jacopo-larcher-tribe-his-most-difficult-trad-climb-at-cadarese.html

Not mention when Tom and Pete get their hard thing done in the desert.

[SA Chris]

I don't think it's the ability that's the issue it's the rock. It's unusual for rock to lead allow placements that lend themselves to relatively safe but very hard climbing, the insane cracks of the White Rim being an exception, and possibly places like Pembroke (are there any very hard projects left there?). Rock usually tends to be very blank, and needing bolting or relatively well endowed with holds and placements.

Who knows though, somewhere in the world there may be a 45 degree overhanging wall peppered with bomber rock 1 placements that are too small to be used as holds, and holds that lend themselves to very hard climbing.

[teestub]

Not mention when Tom and Pete get their hard thing done in the desert.

Did they give Century Crack 9a? Seems like that went down a lot faster than Recovery Drink at 8c+, very different styles I guess...

[SA Chris]

Think he means the as yet unclimbed Crucifix Project.

[36chambers]

Who knows though, somewhere in the world there may be a 45 degree overhanging wall peppered with bomber rock 1 placements that are too small to be used as holds, and holds that lend themselves to very hard climbing.

which will then probably be dogged to death with in-situ gear before the big lead anyway.

[gme]

To be honest yes i do think that people wont climb trad 9b. Maybe some very hard crack might get done like recovery drink but thats it. The hardest trad trad routes now are 8b+ or 8c i think, so a full number grade lower which means that we will need to be climbing 10b to get to a point where 9b trad is being done.

Isn't Tribe at Cadarese supposed to be in the 9a/+ range on trad gear? Even if there's an element of hype in the comparisons drawn in the article below, it still sounds harder than 8c.

https://www.planetmountain.com/en/news/interviews/jacopo-larcher-tribe-his-most-difficult-trad-climb-at-cadarese.html

Not mention when Tom and Pete get their hard thing done in the desert.

I did say its possible with cracks and could believe a 9b one may be found but these are pretty much sport routes without bolts.

Happy to be proved wrong and totally believe that one day 10c and harder will be climbed, 9b wont be very seen as hard, will be onsighted and will get climbed by average climbers not just the leading edge but i dont think that there will be any trad routes at that level and definitely not in the UK.

[SA Chris]

these are pretty much sport routes without bolts.

So trad routes then...

[SA Chris]

one day 10c and harder will be climbed, 9b wont be very seen as hard

... and 9a will be approaching a rest.

[Fiend]

The hardest route in the world has a crack as it's V15 crux... #justsayin'

[gme]

And lots of bolts.

[Fiend]

Just waiting for someone to strip them and retro-trad it

More seriously, I suspect the rock formations exist to have trad routes with  cutting edge sport difficulty (overhanging seams, well-spaced breaks with blank bits etc, imagine 8 Screaming Dreams stacked on each other...and tilted 20 degrees over). But the difficulty of working and doing them is another matter.