[SA Chris]

AFAIK, all white water sports are in artificial environments these days, easy to replicate the Olympic course by placing the gates in the same place.

Probably right of BMX and MTB, although the courses are probably left in place, IDK.

Also true about the distance events, although in theory all of these would still be there if you wanted to run or cycle them at 2 am to avoid traffic, it's not like they've ceased to exist.

[petejh]

All the skiing and snowboarding events. Except maybe ski-jump. But even the 'standardised' ski-jumps in different locations have different prevailing weather conditions.

So apart from all of these, climbing is unique.

[Wil]

Bouldering and Lead routes both have software which can be used to design them now. Percy told me that this was commonly used for lead, but new for bouldering and he wasn't sure if it would be useful for him when setting problems as bouldering has a bit more "feel" to the setting. It would be easy for the models of the routes to be logged in the software and saved for the future though, so replicating the problems precisely will be possible.

[petejh]

I like the artificial boulder idea and am aware of some in the Sheffield parks. Has there been any 'good' ones created yet? If not what are the barriers, apart from money, to creating something amazing in the high 7s / low 8s for the keen?

[BRidal]

A bit of intentional stirring of the pot in my previous post, I think it's quite simple in that if you have competitions in mind when you're training that is where you also seek the reward, succeeding outside feels more like a bonus. But that changes as soon as your focus changes, which i'm sure it will for many.
The artificial boulder/route idea actually appeals to me a lot, it removes a lot of the logistical factors that complicates climbing hard outside, making the pursuit of difficulty far more achievable, and all it takes to be legitimised is the acceptance of a reasonable portion of the community, it only takes a couple instagram posts to get people excited about a crag nowadays, i'm don't think this would be much different.How far can you justify going with it though, are these artificial structures in air conditioned buildings to keep conditions consistent?

[duncan]

Bring Back Broughton!

Isn't the schoolroom all about fixed problems with some historical resonance?  Are there any schoolroom 'Last Great Problems' still to do? 

Mr Moon could commission some wads to set LGPs on his eponymous board (or quite possibly set them himself).

[SA Chris]

All the skiing and snowboarding events. Except maybe ski-jump. But even the 'standardised' ski-jumps in different locations have different prevailing weather conditions.

So apart from all of these, climbing is unique.

If you look, you'll note I did use the word "Summer". Winter is very different, conditions change minute to minute, remember Alan Baxter's medal when conditions got very Scottish very quickly.

[SA Chris]

I like the artificial boulder idea and am aware of some in the Sheffield parks. Has there been any 'good' ones created yet? If not what are the barriers, apart from money, to creating something amazing in the high 7s / low 8s for the keen?

The Cunningar Loop ones in Glasgow have some pretty hard problems on them, although they are rather eliminate in nature. They were bespoke though, but I guess not impossible to recreate.

[BRidal]

Competitions are harder to do well in, require more time invested, and are a better representation of you're overall climbing ability than any one route could ever be, therefore they are a more rewarding pursuit.

Tell that to an onsight ascent of Salathe...

I find two things interesting here:
1. One route? What about many routes? Comparing multiple comps to one route is potentially a bit of a straw man, it's like comparing doing 1 quick tick to 1 project. The comparison would surely be a season of comps to a season of climbing all over the world?

Touché

Surprisingly I hadn't considered onsighting big walls, I won't be impressed until Pete Whit adds a sub 7 speed time to his CV though

I hold climbers who perform across disciplines and styles in very high regard, probably because variety of movement is more what I'm interested in coming from comps. But in terms of leaving a legacy, I think it more comes from excellence in a narrower style, and huge amounts of time invested in to single bits of rock. Which is a very different kind of challenge

[gme]

Loads of interesting stuff.

On bonjoys point I don’t see another option in the uk as we will run out of rock. If we want hard stuff here it’s going to have to be artificial. Think more routes than boulders. Big outdoor lead walls maybe with fixed routes that are not changed.

On the replication of walls The moonboard proves there is a desire for this with 40k+ people using it. Very basic though and hardly classic   

The school shows how and indoor wall can have history just as much as outside first ascents. Maybe a venue could be built that could generate the same thing. I love the idea of having just one problem on a section of wall but can’t see how it’s commercially viable.

[Bonjoy]

How far can you justify going with it though, are these artificial structures in air conditioned buildings to keep conditions consistent?

In the perfect world each boulder would be in an air conditioned space, at a fixed temperature, humidity, and altitude. In the real world, conditions would be less standardised. But this is the case to a greater or lesser extent for all other sports with fixed benchmarks and doesn't prove too problematic.

[wasbeen]

How far can you justify going with it though, are these artificial structures in air conditioned buildings to keep conditions consistent?

In the perfect world each boulder would be in an air conditioned space, at a fixed temperature, humidity, and altitude. In the real world, conditions would be less standardised. But this is the case to a greater or lesser extent for all other sports with fixed benchmarks and doesn't prove too problematic.

The Walltopia wall in Sofia is inetersting - the holds stay in the same place but the holds are lit for different routes - like a giant moon board:

https://www.walltopia.com/en/projects-category/item/376-boulderland

Wound certainly make setting lead walls easier/cheaper

[petejh]

I think the argument that the UK will run out of rock for harder routes needs examining. There's clearly some truth to it, but there doesn't need to be loads of options at the harder grades - each one will take a lot of effort and time.
I know of one location in Ireland that will have 9b's and harder of world-class quality. Flatanger-style caves. No it isn't 'the UK' but it's accessible to all UK climbers who are psyched.

I think much comes down to priorities and motivation to keep trying something that isn't on your doorstep, rather than the routes not being out there. If climbers are motivated to bolt them and work for the routes then there is amazing stuff to go for if you're a 'hoary frontiersman' (love that phrase) who can pull like fuck.

As mentioned before there's an open proj 9a+ on LPT. Others elsewhere in the UK.

[gme]

I don’t know about the place you mention in Ireland but if it’s one of the islands it’s not going to happen I guess due to logistics/weather etc . Why head over there when Spain/France is easier. To be of interest it would have to be something really special such as flatanger.

In the uk I stand by what I said. Where are the 9b+/c/c+s that the future wads will be looking for? They don’t exist.
I am talking about cutting edge here and 9 a+ is not that unless your flashing it. 9a+ at LPT would only just about get an article in uk press and nothing more than a few words on 8a.nu.

[Bonjoy]

I suspect a 9a+ project on LPT could be demoralisingly conditions dependant. The relatively modest grade by world standards not reflecting the effort and heartache required to get everything to align to get it done. When being at the cutting edge of standards requires total dedication to training it's easy to see why you might not be motivated to risk throwing a lot of time at something involving a lot of uncontrollable random factors, and a relatively modest reward (on paper).

[36chambers]

In the uk I stand by what I said. Where are the 9b+/c/c+s that the future wads will be looking for? They don’t exist.
I am talking about cutting edge here and 9 a+ is not that unless your flashing it. 9a+ at LPT would only just about get an article in uk press and nothing more than a few words on 8a.nu.

Have places like Malham and Kilnsey given their hardest lines now? Not including ridiculous traverses or whatever.

[petejh]

I don’t know about the place you mention in Ireland but if it’s one of the islands it’s not going to happen I guess due to logistics/weather etc . Why head over there when Spain/France is easier. To be of interest it would have to be something really special such as flatanger.

In the uk I stand by what I said. Where are the 9b+/c/c+s that the future wads will be looking for? They don’t exist.
I am talking about cutting edge here and 9 a+ is not that unless your flashing it. 9a+ at LPT would only just about get an article in uk press and nothing more than a few words on 8a.nu.

I agree with the sentiments about 9a+ on LPT.

But not about the island venues. These are places a wad could easily spend a week on a comfortable campsite living cheaply. The weather is good and the season is long. I think in people's imaginations it's like going to the ends of the earth in winter!
If Ondra can be bothered to tour around and visit Malham/Kilnsey and the even the Tor - camping at Malham I believe, then it isn't unreasonable for top wads living in the UK to spend some time bolting and projecting world-class 9b-9cs in an 80m cave of immaculate rock a half day's travel away.
I think there's an element of mistakenly thinking cutting edge climbers want it all on a plate when people have these debates - but when you look at what the really top climbers actually do, they put in the travel and the hard graft.

[SA Chris]

You mean this?

https://www.steve-mcclure.com/articles/142-inishmor-irelands-new-super-venue

[dunnyg]

Makes me want to learn how to use a bolt gun (though I wont be bolting up those 9bs, sorry!)

[petejh]

You mean this?

https://www.steve-mcclure.com/articles/142-inishmor-irelands-new-super-venue

Yes. I've been doing new routes there for the last 3 years, visiting a few times each year. I'm going next week.
It isn't the case that there are no good hard new things to do. It's just a lot of people believe that there isn't.

[SA Chris]

TBF, it does look fucking amazing.

[gme]

I don’t know about the place you mention in Ireland but if it’s one of the islands it’s not going to happen I guess due to logistics/weather etc . Why head over there when Spain/France is easier. To be of interest it would have to be something really special such as flatanger.

In the uk I stand by what I said. Where are the 9b+/c/c+s that the future wads will be looking for? They don’t exist.
I am talking about cutting edge here and 9 a+ is not that unless your flashing it. 9a+ at LPT would only just about get an article in uk press and nothing more than a few words on 8a.nu.

I agree with the sentiments about 9a+ on LPT.

But not about the island venues. These are places a wad could easily spend a week on a comfortable campsite living cheaply. The weather is good and the season is long. I think in people's imaginations it's like going to the ends of the earth in winter!
If Ondra can be bothered to tour around and visit Malham/Kilnsey and the even the Tor - camping at Malham I believe, then it isn't unreasonable for top wads living in the UK to spend some time bolting and projecting world-class 9b-9cs in an 80m cave of immaculate rock a half day's travel away.
I think there's an element of mistakenly thinking cutting edge climbers want it all on a plate when people have these debates - but when you look at what the really top climbers actually do, they put in the travel and the hard graft.

I have seen pics and talked to a few who have been and whilst it looks really good most say the opposite about conditions.  Does it not suffer damp like most coastal areas. Tides? Heard swell is a bit of an issue and that coast gets lots.
I still think to develop stuff there will be difficult when compared to oliana, ceuse and even flatanger.

[petejh]

I've made over ten visits over the last three years and know the place well:
Tides are mostly irrelevant, it's all non-tidal. Swell can be a concern if a large swell combined with a high tide but in over ten visits swell has only once been an issue and that was a time I was there bolting by myself in December in a storm - when the 'swell' was clearing the 45 metre high cliff! (I have footage).
Conditions - it's south facing and a complete sun-trap. Grease is nowhere near the issue it is on LPT (and that's not 'that' bad compared to the Diamond). The deep caves slightly more, but really not much of an issue. We've had more issue with the sun, honestly it can get baking there in March.
The folk from Sheffield dabbled a little bit for a few days - obvs Ste Mac's dabbling includes onsighting 8b and flash FA of 8b/+. They barely scratched the surface.

Actually - disregard all that. It's too far, too smeggy, too hard, too complicated and too expensive. Stay away.

[gme]

Why are people not going ? Maybe you need to invite ondra over and bolt a free lines for him.

[petejh]

I imagine he'd totally love the place: Flatanger-on-Sea.

People don't go because most people are herd-based. Which is fine by me. But when I read people here saying there aren't cool places to do amazing new hard stuff in our collection of little islands I can't help wanting to point out that actually there are and it just takes a little bit (not a lot) of gumption.