[Will Hunt]

Just another thing about guidebooks. When I started out on this project about 4 years ago now (fucking hell!) I had it very much in mind that I needed to get photos of women and BAME people in there. In particular I was very inspired by the Wired Pembroke guide where the presence of women operating across the grade spectrum was really noticeable.

For the first few years I was focussed on getting topo photos done for the limestone crags and gathering up scripts for the crags (and frankly, childcare and work commitments made progress very slow). Over this time I took my camera climbing with me and made a point of trying to get action photos wherever I could. I'm not a great photographer but I am very committed to this book, and I think that at least 70% of what makes a good climbing photo is its composition which can be very simply boiled down to one golden rule which is not shooting from below. Because I make myself put the time in to do this I think I've got some decent shots. But, once you've done the following, you find that you've lost a very significant amount of your own climbing day:
Arranged to go climbing on a day when the light is good and you can go climbing at the right time of day to catch said light
Persuaded someone to climb the route you want to photograph
Climbed an adjacent route/abbed in off a dodgy crag top belay (lowering over the lip of Malham from an only half-adequate belay to photograph Swift Attack on the Terrace Wall was particularly memorable, it was only once I was over the edge that I found a thread back-up which made me 100% happy with the belay)
Switched over to an abseil if you've climbed a sport route
Hauled your camera up
Realised you need to change lens and have juggled £00's of precision glassware around at 20m off the ground
Hung around waiting for people to get climbing
Harangued people (climbers and also passing tourists) to move themselves or bags out of shot (you also have to hassle people to wear non-rock coloured clothes before they leave the house)
Prayed that the sun goes in/comes out (depending on what rock type and crag you're working on)
etc etc etc

You can't really do this if you've a climbing partner waiting to climb something and you're arsing around trying to get photos, so you're best off doing this when operating as a three. If you consider that you might also have to spend a lot of time (hours, if you want to get it right, and getting it right is vitally important) sketching lines and belay positions onto the topo photo printouts that you shot on a previous visit (when you need the crag to be dry, seepage-free, have sun on it BUT NOT TOO MUCH SUN IF IT'S LIMESTONE!, be in the right season (i.e. not summer if you're shooting crags with tree cover)), then its a miracle if you get any climbing done at all. This work has to slot in alongside your work and family commitments and you have to try not to sacrifice too much of your climbing or you'll end up resenting the project.

So it's difficult to get photos and I was also surprised by how difficult it is to get people to model for photos. I have become almost a person non-grata at LMC evening meets because I spend half the time trying to boss people around when they just want to get on with climbing. I was at Anston Stones on Sunday and Carl had asked if I could try and get some pics for the new Esoteric East guide. I got some shots (nothing great), but you really do have to be prepared to intrude on other people (Ned Feehally and Ben Pritchard in this case) in quite an awkward way to manage it.

Also, when you're trying to get guidebook photos, sometimes the requirements are quite specific. Like, I'm going to Brimham tonight and I need a landscape photo of a lady leading a trad route with the action on one side of the frame and some backdrop (to put map, approach description etc etc over) on the other. Any landscape photos where the action is dead centre will not be useable (unless they can be cropped significantly) as a spread because the climber will be gobbled up by the gutter of the book.

If you ask people who you know are going to a crag which you need a photo for to get a photo for you, they will generally not do it. They'll either: find it too awkward to ask to take a photo of a stranger, say it's too crowded, say the light isn't right, say nobody is wearing the right colours, be too busy doing their own climbing, etc etc. Sometimes they will take a photo and it'll be crap. Sometimes they'll take a photo and it will be brilliant and you will fall to your knees, raise your hands to sky and scream "thank you, God!" and love that person forever for helping you.

Scouring social media is one way to get photos, but often people have uploaded to Instagram and got rid of the original photo from their phone, leaving you with a fairly low-res image to work with.

Because of all this, you tend to find if you flip through any guidebook (I'm sure there will be exceptions), that the vast vast majority of photos are taken of bouldering (easy to get good photos), or are taken by the small handful of people in the core guidebook team, or people who have worked on guidebooks and so never ever go to a crag without their camera, or people like Mike who are masochists and love taking great photos, or pros who know the score and do it for a living. The subjects are very often the same small group of people who know the score and actually bring a change of clothes to the crag when you ask them too instead of laugh it off because they think you were joking.

I'm sorry I've rambled. I want to be very clear about two things:
Most importantly is that this is not me saying "it's hard so we won't bother trying". We must continue to try as hard as we can to increase the number of photos of women and BAME people in guidebook photos. It's important. I will do my best to make this happen for our book. The reason I say all of the above is not to try and excuse the lack of BAME people in guidebooks, but just to try and explain why something that seems so easy (getting photos of anybody [male/female/BAME/etc] for a book) is actually harder than you think already without then applying the additional filter of looking for subjects who unfortunately make up a fairly small percentage of the climbing community.

Secondly, I recently put out a public appeal for photos and must have received over a hundred different responses. Some of them were, frankly, terrible, but a lot of them were absolutely brilliant and have been a huge help. I am grateful to every single person who submitted for taking the time to do so. Even if their photos were crap, they heard a cry for help and they answered as best they could.

[dunnyg]

I got a free red coat the other day, so if you get a telephoto lens you can take some snaps of me next time I go out x

[petejh]

Off topic - Will I feel your pain. Getting good photos for guidebooks is bloody hard thankless work. Asking pro's or doing it yourself are the only ways to get it done. I had a secret weapon for NWL - Mike Hutton, total legend. He took various shots over a few years. Towards the end of the project I still had a list of 'wants', so I arranged a day for him to come to N.Wales when I'd arranged to get 6 different climbers on 6 different esoteric crags (Enemy Wall E6 first ascent, Surprise Zawn 'DWS' - Robins solo'ing above a low tide, Lower St Tudno's E2 girdle traverse, Hornby Crags, Noticeboard Crag, one other I can't remember). At the end of the day he was totally fucked from dashing from one place to the next, setting up, packing up, moving on to the next. All timed to try to get the light. Think we gave him lunch, and a couple of pints and a pork pie in the evening. Top bloke who seems to still get loads of pleasure from just being out at crags capturing great images.

[Rachel Rock Tots]

Well, I appeal for people to be in my films each time I make one and I have narrowed that down in the past (I didn’t shoot Prom Traverse for Stonnis until I’d found a couple who were up for it for example) just never based on ethnic background. I think like a lot of people who’ve always considered themselves anti-racist I now feel more emboldened to be like “I specifically want to feature someone who looks like you because I feel like that would be a good thing” than I have in the past. There are organisations dedicated to BAME involvement in the outdoors and I thought I’d get in touch with them too.

This is good to hear Mike, I’m glad you are feeling more confidence to make positive changes.

Do keep me updated if you find any such organisations, that would be good to support.

[battery]

I'm following this conversation with interest but have little of any clarity to add at this point. However I heard parts of this on the radio the other day and her words and her strength have shaken and emboldened me. We must do better.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-53200019/wembley-park-murders-emotional-interview-with-mum-of-sisters-found-dead

[sdm]

Really? Have they let the guidebook writers or first ascentionists know?

I don't think so. I think they came to the conclusion that they needed to make the changes immediately and that they can sort out guidebook issues and new names later. I think most have been renamed something generic with a note on the climb page as to why it has been changed (but not referencing the old name).

There is a thread on UKC about it but I haven't followed it so some or all of the above may be inaccurate.

[cheque]

(one of the state’s best and most famous boulder problems has a KKK-related name and was put up quite recently by a fairly well-known, currently-active climber...)

This is like a proper geek out pub quiz question! All the famous ones I can think are from the dosage era visits.

Grand Dragon

Hauled your camera up

I’ve never bothered with this step Will, I just ab or jug with the bag slung over my shoulder.

[galpinos]

Top bloke who seems to still get loads of pleasure from just being out at crags capturing great images.

I only know him vaguely through the wall but a really nice chap.

[SA Chris]

He's worth following on Facebook, puts up some great stuff

[Oldmanmatt]

It is amazing how deeply rooted and pernicious, institutional racism is and how banal it seems until it is pointed out:

[Oldmanmatt]

Publisher and Editor in Chief of Rock and Ice, steps down:

https://rockandice.com/climbing-news/an-apology-from-the-publisher/

[tomtom]

Publisher and Editor in Chief of Rock and Ice, steps down:

https://rockandice.com/climbing-news/an-apology-from-the-publisher/

The comments (following the article) are not especially encouraging for the way forward though 😱

[andy popp]

The comments on Woods' instagram posts are also a complete shitshow.

[teestub]

The comments on their Insta posts for the (terrible) Bisharat article and also this letter are about 80% horrible too. Same old defensive unconsidered positions.

[Offwidth]

Off topic - Will I feel your pain. Getting good photos for guidebooks is bloody hard thankless work. Asking pro's or doing it yourself are the only ways to get it done. I had a secret weapon for NWL - Mike Hutton, total legend. He took various shots over a few years. Towards the end of the project I still had a list of 'wants', so I arranged a day for him to come to N.Wales when I'd arranged to get 6 different climbers on 6 different esoteric crags (Enemy Wall E6 first ascent, Surprise Zawn 'DWS' - Robins solo'ing above a low tide, Lower St Tudno's E2 girdle traverse, Hornby Crags, Noticeboard Crag, one other I can't remember). At the end of the day he was totally fucked from dashing from one place to the next, setting up, packing up, moving on to the next. All timed to try to get the light. Think we gave him lunch, and a couple of pints and a pork pie in the evening. Top bloke who seems to still get loads of pleasure from just being out at crags capturing great images.

Spot on. I'd add he is fabulous company on these photography trips and is the only person I've ever met who can talk as much as he does without ever being annoying.  Mike does need some income though.

There are quite a few other climbing photographers not far behind him in the hero stakes. It's one of the most selfless tasks in guidebook production.

[Offwidth]

Back on the subject...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/04/police-smash-car-window-ryan-colaco-tv-interview-racism

[Bradders]

Back on the subject...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/04/police-smash-car-window-ryan-colaco-tv-interview-racism

Thanks Offwidth.

Two related incidents:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CCO45i-nUu7/?igshid=13bnkf96lw27v
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/53305712

Two Olympic athletes seemingly aggressively detained, stopped and searched for, essentially, driving a Mercedes, with their 3 month old child in the car.

Imagine being stopped like this with your child there! The only mitigation is a mention that they drove on the wrong side of the road, but if that's true, why weren't they charged?! Smells like bullshit to me, trying to justify it.

I can safely say I've never even considered the possibility I might be stopped whilst driving, let alone like this, unless I actually broke the law. The idea of just being randomly stopped is inconceivable to me.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CCMMSqZhwg3/?igshid=qt22nbkif6cc

Three black men out for a walk in London with a dog. Off to the park. Stopped and searched not once but twice. Nothing found. Zero evidence they'd done anything wrong whatsoever. They're clearly relaxed and peaceful, then out of nowhere are forcibly restrained.

Again, I can safely say I've never even considered the possibility I might be detained like this whilst walking my dog. In my mind neither of these can possibly be justified as anything other than racial profiling. Both times the people assaulted by the police react badly; they don't exactly keep calm, but why should they! I think I'd be angry too.

[Will Hunt]

Carey Davies (ex?) BMC hillwalking man currently being targeted by all sorts of trolls/bots/cunts on Twitter for posting about a White Lives Matter banner being flown on Mam Tor.

I believe more hikes are planned...

[Wil]

I've had to leave the room a few times at work because I've been so angry at what some of the people I work with are saying. I did challenge it initially, but was met with a brick wall and a total lack of will to engage critically with anything. Some simply don't have the rhetorical skills to engage, the world is black and white (no pun intended). As I'm only there temporarily I don't have a lot of capital, plus I'm an outsider there being "posh" and male.

I have, unfortunately, heard lots of talk of "White Lives Matter" and "It's them that's the racists now anyway" and at least one "they've got equality now, what more do they want?" This is in a care home with a 2:1 split between white, working-class women and black African women who immigrated as adults. I've also seen team leaders at the home imitating the accents of black residents (one Jamaican, one Nigerian).

The awkward thing here is that the last point is simply that the conversation hasn't got there for many of them. To my sensibilities imitating the accents is shocking, but they view it as a friendly gesture. In fairness they do it with some of the white women as well (Scottish and Irish), but I don't think they would understand this as "othering" or understand why doing it with white people might have a different context to black people.

[Offwidth]

Carey Davies (ex?) BMC hillwalking man currently being targeted by all sorts of trolls/bots/cunts on Twitter for posting about a White Lives Matter banner being flown on Mam Tor.

I believe more hikes are planned...

I should imagine a few of the bastards post on UKC given some of the debate there on the BLM and statue threads. Carey left the BMC to edit TGO. One of the good guys.

https://www.tgomagazine.co.uk/magazine/the-team/

[duncan]

Trevor Massiah on the curious climber podcast. Funny and serious, sometimes simultaneously. Worth listening right to the end.

[Wood FT]

Trevor Massiah on the curious climber podcast. Funny and serious, sometimes simultaneously. Worth listening right to the end.

Thoroughly enjoyed this, if that’s the right word. Only had the pleasure of meeting him a few times but what a lovely chap.

[andy popp]

on UKC given some of the debate there on the BLM and statue threads. Carey left the BMC to edit TGO. One of the good guys.

I tried to debate one of the most avid UKC posters on these issues a couple of weeks ago. The topic was slavery, economic history, and British wealth today. Despite themselves constantly repeating the two simple-minded assertions they'd latched on to, I was accused of making assertions, not arguments. But when I carefully laid out the case over several posts, they and another poster simply stopped replying to me. My conclusion was that there are some people for whom it is really, really important to insist that there is no racism and that slavery is barely even a footnote to British history. I wonder why on earth that could be ... ? It's almost like it's important to their identity ... ?

[Oldmanmatt]

on UKC given some of the debate there on the BLM and statue threads. Carey left the BMC to edit TGO. One of the good guys.

I tried to debate one of the most avid UKC posters on these issues a couple of weeks ago. The topic was slavery, economic history, and British wealth today. Despite themselves constantly repeating the two simple-minded assertions they'd latched on to, I was accused of making assertions, not arguments. But when I carefully laid out the case over several posts, they and another poster simply stopped replying to me. My conclusion was that there are some people for whom it is really, really important to insist that there is no racism and that slavery is barely even a footnote to British history. I wonder why on earth that could be ... ? It's almost like it's important to their identity ... ?

I am confused by this apparent desire for “tribal” (?) identity. I’m British, because that’s what it says on my passport, but I’ve always loved the fact that I only need to look back a couple of generations to realise I’m a total mongrel with great and great great grandparents from Scandinavia, Italy, Eastern Europe as well as three out of four countries of the UK and as for the Romany side, they literally come from “all over” Eurasia.
I’m proud that my children have dual nationality. Proud that my daughter was born in Arabia.
This doesn’t preclude me, simultaneously, being proud to be British (though it does lead me to conclude that I would be me, wherever I was born), it just means I don’t really see it as being “superior to” anywhere else.
OT. Sorry.

[Offwidth]

A couple of relevant articles from the Guardian today. Pretty much what you might expect from Benjamin...

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jul/07/benjamin-zephaniah-coppers-were-standing-on-my-back-and-i-thought-ok-im-going-to-die-here

...and the latest episode in the surreal developments in the US

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jul/06/donald-trump-bubba-wallace-noose-tweet-nascar