[Oldmanmatt]

As a slight aside and illustration of what I was talking about with the “population in chains” comment above (at least metaphorically):

https://time.com/5861100/china-uighurs-birth-control/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=editorial&utm_term=world_&linkId=92206862

[SA Chris]

https://www.climbing.com/news/ten-sleep-route-names-changed-to-honor-racial-justice-movement/

Thoughts?

Should the UK's one get renamed too?

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/dumbuck-1385/happiness_in_slavery-47412

and could this be seen as offensive?

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/malham_cove-610/mulatto_wall-12710

[sdm]

UKC have already renamed a bunch of route names in their database in the past few weeks.

[SA Chris]

Really? Have they let the guidebook writers or first ascentionists know?

[teestub]

and could this be seen as offensive?

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/malham_cove-610/mulatto_wall-12710

Putting aside the routes named after NIN songs, this one definitely is a dated and offensive term. Believe this one has been highlighted previously.

[fatneck]

Some really interesting discussions going on on Insta - Daniel Woods and Nina Williams particularly.

Nina has some really interesting points leading to a good discussion about naming of routes and boulder problems and how guide book writers are handling this.

Daniel's two posts here. Great to hear him recognise himself as the epitome of white privilege.

There was a post on the Fell Running group on Facebook about encouraging diversity within the sport and it seems that the majority of people felt it was enough to be welcoming which "everyone" in fell running is and therefor it's not a problem...

I think there is a definite role for the climbing wall fraternity to actively seek to engage with BAME communities. I'm not sure what this looks like but I will be speaking with my local friendly climbing wall owner with a view to encouraging this!

UKB has always been the domain of the least marginalised, stigmatised and most privileged people in the country (white men) and often not the easiest place for new folk to fit in. A niche forum within a niche section of a niche sport is likely to be under-representative. I can only think of a handful of climbers from BAME backgrounds and I certainly don't know any.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this other than to open a discussion about how we could be more inclusive...

[cheque]

Incredible how long the name of this route (someone’s added the original name in the first feedback comment if you’re unaware) survived- I was dismayed to see that the 2018 CC guide simply describes it as “Devon’s least PC route name”. It’s an improvement on not making any comment whatsoever (as with the similarly-titled route in the 2016 Bosigran guide) but fucking come on. The book that first made me aware of it (100 Limestone Climbs by Chris Craggs) breezily uses the name repeatedly, the impact assisted by the book’s style of using capitals for route names.

[SA Chris]

I assumed (was told?) it was an acronym (not the original racial one) but can't remember what it was of.

Likewise, I once heard that Chic in the Moelwyns was supposed to be short for "California Here I Come" but this too was lost in time.

No idea if either is true.

[andy popp]

I assumed (was told?) it was an acronym (not the original racial one) but can't remember what it was of.

I've heard it stood for "wall, overhang, groove." No idea if that is true. In any case, the slur it spells out would have been in very well known in the 1920s.

[SA Chris]

That sounds about it, not saying it's right though.

[Will Hunt]

This is very relevant as, only last night, I sanitised my first route name. There are two crap choss grooves at Gigg South Upper Crag called Left-hand and Right-hand Siamese Twin. I knocked the "Siamese" off. Nobody is going to notice this (the routes are only in because they share a topo with Power Pinch, Go Johnny Go, and Custard Crack).

UKC have made a start with their database but from what I can see it hasn't gone much further yet than doing a Find and Replace in the database on the worst words and any examples pointed out to them. I expect they'll tackle the rest of it as they go along and let it be community-driven (though this isn't enough really, since the community is largely white and unmarginalised).

The Instagram post from Nina sums up well what I think the basic principle should be:

Distinguish between immature/vulgar/crude names and racist/sexist/ableist/homophobic/transphobic/ethnocentric/anti-Semitic names. Keep the vulgar names and toss the names that are historically violent and exclusive against entire communities of people.

Nina also hints at the challenge that might be involved:

How do we draw that line? Imperfectly.

I've actually done the first pitch of Mulatto Wall and only yesterday when Chris posted did I actually learn what Mulatto means (I've never heard that word used outside the context of Malham's Right Wing). It seems pretty obvious that this needs to be Bowdlerised, which is something I approach with trepidation because, realistically, if there's going to be lots of these then it can't all be done by committee. No-star routes at Gigg South are one thing, but a 3 star route on Malham's Right Wing? Whatever name I go with will get criticism from one quarter or another.

Mulatto Wall is the name given to the aid route that was put up in the 60's and when Fawcett freed it he didn't change the name. Flipping through my 1974 copy of the Yorkshire Limestone guide, I can see that this is not the most egregious example from that era. The terrifying arete that looms over Gordale's lower waterfall is now known as Deliverance (there's a few other routes as well). I can't make out exactly what line the aid line took (I think various free routes dip in and out of the aid line) but it used to be called Big Nig (free at HVS, says the 1974 edition!  ).

There are some names which are only problematic by association. For instance, China Syndrome (in the select) is not in itself offensive, but it sits next to two unstarred routes which aren't in the select (Yellow Wall an Yellow Peril). Yellow Wall was added in '66 and is called such because the rock is yellow (as opposed to the black rock to the right which gives Black Wall its name); China Syndrome and Yellow Peril (in and of itself a problematic phrase) were both added in 1980. So in our coverage, you have see China Syndrome which isn't placed in a racist context; it's only when it comes to a new definitive that this will become apparent. Do I get ahead and change the name of China Syndrome now?

As Nina points out, this goes beyond race. The same crag also has a problem called The Bitch (the reference is not a female dog). Is this bad enough to warrant sanitising? I'm leaning towards "no", but maybe women who have been called a bitch would think quite differently? Although as a slur it is gendered (in the same way that prick is gendered) it doesn't strike me as being excessively hateful.
It's not my area, but what about Strapadictomy? Seems fairly clear that it belittles the struggles of trans people.

[SA Chris]

There's nothing Racist about China Syndrome.

"

China syndrome" is a fanciful term—not intended to be taken literally—that describes a fictional result of a nuclear meltdown, where reactor components melt through their containment structures and into the underlying earth, "all the way to China."

It's purely a matter of geography, with China being on the opposite side of the globe to where the supposed US meltdown would have occured. If it had been a UK reactor the film was about it would have been called the Australia Syndrome.

[SA Chris]

BTW this could be the second route name purge this year;

https://rockandice.com/opinion/misogyny-on-the-rocks-the-tinder-p-dilemma/

[duncan]

Thanks for starting this.

In my school in 1970s Somerset there was a single black - a trans-racial adoptee - and a handful of south and east asian kids in about 1800 pupils. We were taught about the slave trade in quite some detail when I was 12/13, both from an economic perspective but very much about the human suffering too. I remember the plans of the ship's deck and how many people were squeezed in to them and it made a big impact at the time. The school was a new Comprehensive and had a relatively liberal ethos for the 70s - boys did needlework and cookery, girls did woodwork and metalwork. Some of the staff were time serving ex-Grammar school but many of the younger ones bought into a modern  education. However, there was no mention of racism and no connection made with contemporary issues. I studied O level history (18th to mid 20th century European) and the external syllabus made no mention of slavery: I learned a whole lot about the Lancashire cotton industry, flying shuttles and Spinning Jennys, but nothing about where the cotton came from. 

Two points I've been reflecting on recently. There is good evidence that BAME and east asian students perform less well than expected when assessment is not anonymous. This 'white bonus' disappears when marking is blind. I've been pushing to make all assessment anonymous (clinical assessments and presentations are more of a challenge, written work should be trivially easy) for the last year but it has felt like banging my head against a brick wall at times. The default setting for the softwear used for on online marking is not anonymous and it seems remarkably difficult to change this. I think we're nearly there and recent events have certainly helped but I've been staggered how much persistence has been needed when this should be a no-brainer. It shouldn't have been necessary but made it clear to me how discrimination can exist in organisations whose individuals see themselves as non-discriminatory and the need to actively counteract it.

I don't feel equipped to talk about barriers to participation in the outdoors but I think it's more complex than the price of shoes. Wil, of this parish, made some sensible points here although he shares my limitation. Covid-19 has had a big impact on the range of people in my local outside spaces. Hampstead Heath has gone from Notting Hill the movie to approaching Notting Hill the carnival. I've been going for walks on the Ridgeway for decades. For the first time this Sunday my fellow walkers started to resemble what you would expect from south east England including London. Perhaps things are starting to change.

[Will Hunt]

There's nothing Racist about China Syndrome.

"

China syndrome" is a fanciful term—not intended to be taken literally—that describes a fictional result of a nuclear meltdown, where reactor components melt through their containment structures and into the underlying earth, "all the way to China."

It's purely a matter of geography, with China being on the opposite side of the globe to where the supposed US meltdown would have occured. If it had been a UK reactor the film was about it would have been called the Australia Syndrome.

For instance, China Syndrome (in the select) is not in itself offensive

 

It is the fact that the route was added later to sit next to Yellow Wall (not racist in itself, it's just a reference to the colour of the rock and is a counterpoint to the earlier Black Wall - again a reference to the colour of the rock) and sits along Yellow Peril (racist). If you read Nina's Instragram post you'll see her reference a route called Yellow Fever which is not racist in and of itself but becomes racist by association by being on a section of crag called China Wall.

If in our guide all the routes were to be included I would Bowdlerise Yellow Peril and China Syndrome. As it is I'm leaning towards leaving it as it is for now because nobody will be able to look at that part of the book and be marginalised as it stands, and I'm working on the principle that an editor shouldn't change route names unless it is necessary.

[andy popp]

In the news today: on the 60th anniversary of independence of the Democratic Republic of Congo, for the first time ever a Belgian monarch expresses regret for the nation's colonial history, but stops short of an apology. Similarly, British Prime Ministers have expressed regret for slavery, but never an apology. Personally, I think both countries need to take that step.

King Leopold II ran the Congo as a private enterprise in the late C19th/early C20th and did so with unparalleled brutality - up to 10 million may have died under his regime. Belgian then maintained a highly exploitative relationship with its colony until independence in 1960. One year later, Belgium conspired in the assassination of the of Patric Lumumba, the DRC's first democratically elected leader.

Link: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/30/belgian-king-philippe-expresses-profound-regrets-for-brutal-colonial-rule

[SA Chris]

Sure I mentioned before, but this is worth a read, for an insight into the Congo's horrific history.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blood-River-Journey-Africas-Broken/dp/0099494280

[Oldmanmatt]

I don’t really know how to explain this, but for many years I was the butt of considerable abuse, at Wadebridge comprehensive, North Cornwall.

I was variously “Dego”, “Wop” , “Gupta” or “Ghandi”.

My mother is of Italian descent and my father had a Romany grandmother. I’m quite dark skinned, if blue eyed. (In later life, I have often been taken as Lebanese, Turkish or generally Eastern Mediterranean).

A North Cornwall secondary school in the early 1980’s was not exactly ethnically diverse. However, a local doctor had adopted a couple of brothers from somewhere in Africa and Jamie Yoki  (the eldest, and I don’t think I ever knew exactly where he came from or how to spell his name) was in my year. He was one hell of an athlete and top set for all academics.

More importantly, for me, a family with origins in the Subcontinent, moved into the town to open an Indian restaurant. There were two boys, if I remember correctly, and the eldest (Johnathan, I think) joined the year above me, in my first year, the younger went into Primary.

The family were also called Glover.

I think, right up to the fifth year, many people assumed I was Johnathan’s brother.

I was quite well aware of the difference a perceived racial origin could have on your day to day life...


 I should add, I know Johnathan was often called ‘Paki” , but I don’t think anyone ever threw that my way. Also, looking back, it’s funny that the kids didn’t know there was a difference between a “Wop” and person from South East Asia...

[cheque]

Distinguish between immature/vulgar/crude names and racist/sexist/ableist/homophobic/transphobic/ethnocentric/anti-Semitic names. Keep the vulgar names and toss the names that are historically violent and exclusive against entire communities of people.

Conflating route names that are racist or similarly poisonous with those that simply have swear words in is an absolute gift to people who don’t want the former to change. My mates in Arkansas are embroiled in trying to change racist route names (one of the state’s best and most famous boulder problems has a KKK-related name and was put up quite recently by a fairly well-known, currently-active climber...) and large parts of the depressingly substantial resistance to this is whataboutery regarding the existence of routes with rude or sweary names (lots or those in AR too) as a kind of attempted justification.

[andy popp]

I was variously “Dego”, “Wop” , “Gupta” or “Ghandi”.

Matt, I really want to reply to your long post yesterday but am snowed under with work today. What I didn't know until recently is that WoP - originally applied to Italian-Americans and other American immigrants from southern Europe - is that it is an acronym for "Without Papers."

[Wil]

Lots of thoughts to reply to here.

I learned about the slave trade at school, I'm shocked to learn that wasn't universal. I also opted for history at GCSE where we studied 20th C American history including the Civil Rights movement right up to Rodney King. The references to Britain's role in all of this, or civil rights in the UK, or 1980s race riots were limited. We studied China under Mao Zedong too. I remember also having lessons on racism in primary school, despite being in a very white rural area of south Wales. These were well intended but remarkably clumsy and led by the same council employee who did our cycling proficiency tests and videos about why you shouldn't climb on pylons.

Re: Route names. There are clearly some routes names that should just be chucked out. I feel like this should be acknowledged in guidebooks rather than simply changed. I hadn't even thought about the context problem, but that's clearly important.

I've been recording some interviews with people around their experiences of feeling included in the outdoors (rather than climbing specifically). Some of them will start to appear on my website and in all good podcast apps, the first one is out already. This was really sparked by constantly seeing what I consider to be aggressive and unnecessary responses to articles about race or gender in climbing. It's the "we're not racist", "why are you bothering to bring this up?" and "leave this out of the outdoors" attitudes that really annoyed me. If you don't want to read it, don't, but it's very noticeable how fast and consistent the response is from many people. The Countryfile tweet linked above is a good example, there's nothing accusatory in it, just a black man explaining how some people feel, and it's jumped on by thousands of people.

[teestub]

(one of the state’s best and most famous boulder problems has a KKK-related name and was put up quite recently by a fairly well-known, currently-active climber...)

This is like a proper geek out pub quiz question! All the famous ones I can think are from the dosage era visits.

[Oldmanmatt]

I was variously “Dego”, “Wop” , “Gupta” or “Ghandi”.

Matt, I really want to reply to your long post yesterday but am snowed under with work today. What I didn't know until recently is that WoP - originally applied to Italian-Americans and other American immigrants from southern Europe - is that it is an acronym for "Without Papers."

I didn’t know that. I knew the term from all those Saturday afternoon B&W, BBC2, war and gangster movies that we grew up on in the ‘70s/‘80s, which I assume is where everybody else at the time picked it up.

This reminded me of a relatively recent occasion of this for me. I was doing the Plymouth Uni Small Craft Surveying CPD course in 2009. Only about ten candidates and one was a twenty-something from Southampton. On the first day, I had done the whole introduction thing and asked a question or two, before lunch. Over lunch, this lad comes up to me, complimented me on my “Well spoken” English (his words) and asked which part of the world I came from.

This is a far from everyday thing, which is why the specific examples stick out, but it has been elucidating, over the years.

[galpinos]

This was really sparked by constantly seeing what I consider to be aggressive and unnecessary responses to articles about race or gender in climbing. It's the "we're not racist", "why are you bothering to bring this up?" and "leave this out of the outdoors" attitudes that really annoyed me. If you don't want to read it, don't, but it's very noticeable how fast and consistent the response is from many people. The Countryfile tweet linked above is a good example, there's nothing accusatory in it, just a black man explaining how some people feel, and it's jumped on by thousands of people.

I totally agree with this. I'm in a few outdoor facebook groups and any post raising this issue is jumped on with aggressive "everything is fine", "they can going walking/climbing if they want" responses, the second of which seems reasonably telling.

[Oldmanmatt]

This was really sparked by constantly seeing what I consider to be aggressive and unnecessary responses to articles about race or gender in climbing. It's the "we're not racist", "why are you bothering to bring this up?" and "leave this out of the outdoors" attitudes that really annoyed me. If you don't want to read it, don't, but it's very noticeable how fast and consistent the response is from many people. The Countryfile tweet linked above is a good example, there's nothing accusatory in it, just a black man explaining how some people feel, and it's jumped on by thousands of people.

I totally agree with this. I'm in a few outdoor facebook groups and any post raising this issue is jumped on with aggressive "everything is fine", "they can going walking/climbing if they want" responses, the second of which seems reasonably telling.

Looking through the likes of my Insta feed, where I follow a lot of climbing, diving, mountaineering, bush craft, survival skills etc type groups and hashtags, I don’t think I’ve seen any, let alone a little, Black participation. Even though some of the tracking and bush craft groups are Africa based.
Plenty of Middle Eastern (diving, bushcraft and climbing, in particular), several East Asian (again diving and bushcraft. Particularly Philippine, Korean and Sri Lankan) and, of course, climbing is obviously massive in Japan.
I shall do some active hunting, see what’s around.