[colin8ll]

W.C. Revo for rope lead solo. I mounted Revo on the bottom anchor. This is different than most common lead rope solo set ups.

I'd love to hear more about how his self-belay setup works in practice. I imagine falling off into space with a locked belay device at the anchor must lead to an almighty faff to get back to the ground.

[cheque]

 

How would you lower off?

[mrjonathanr]

Trail an 8mm ab cord?. (Off topic but I do hope your 'cheque pictures' venture diversifies into literature. The name is just waiting...)

[petejh]

Great stuff.

You could have a short length of lightweight tag-line clipped to an in-situ ab rope hanging out on space, so it slides up the rope as you climb. If you fall off and were left hanging, you could pull over the ab rope and transfer to it.

Alternatively, carry a hand jammer, footloop and prussic and jug up your lead rope back to the rock. Would need to continue climbing though.

Really need the next step in rope-solo evolution: the wireless/bluetooth-operated remote belay device, so you attach the device at ground level and lower yourself remotely.  Bet it'll come, or someone will jimmy-rig one!

[teestub]

You could have a short length of lightweight tag-line clipped to an in-situ ab rope hanging out on space, so it slides up the rope as you climb. If you fall off and were left hanging, you could pull over the ab rope and transfer to it.

Wouldn’t that essentially be a solo top rope set up with extra faff?

[petejh]

Not really because the ab rope wouldn't stop you hitting the ground if you fell and your gear ripped. You'd just be tagged to it, so you could pull it across to you and connect onto should you want to get back to the ground - you aren't connected to it in a 'fall protection' sense.

(I don't know what his set-up was, mine is just conjecture.)

[HaeMeS]

Really need the next step in rope-solo evolution: the wireless/bluetooth-operated remote belay device, so you attach the device at ground level and lower yourself remotely.  Bet it'll come, or someone will jimmy-rig one!

This should do the trick. Remote controlled as well... https://www.faulhaber.com/en/markets/environmental-safety/electronic-partner-for-individual-climbing-epic/
Not sure how to attach the EPIC to the bottom of a climb 
Maybe that’s why in Germany bolts are sometimes placed at knee-level on beginners route 

[petejh]

Very cool. Wonder what setting it defaults to upon battery failure?

Any ground anchor would do as long as it took the direction and force of the load. Sling around a block, upward-pulling cams, wires etc.

[SA Chris]

I just looked at that thing and gave an involuntary shudder.

[tomtom]

Very cool. Wonder what setting it defaults to upon battery failure?

Any ground anchor would do as long as it took the direction and force of the load. Sling around a block, upward-pulling cams, wires etc.

accidently smash your smartwatch/wrist controller into the wall and it just pays out slack relentlessley..... whilst you're trying to tap the fucking screen with your nose holding on to a minging crimp with the other hand... etc..etc..

[petejh]

TAKE!

[tomtom]

Alexa: Take.

[SA Chris]

Taike, Teyke, Tayke, Tairk FUCKING TAAAAAKE!!!!

[duncan]

[SA Chris]

They're all dead Dave.

[Oldmanmatt]

Honestly, I can’t wad all of you.
But cheers, actually pissed myself.

[mrjonathanr]

How do people go shunting these days? Planing to spend a bit of time pottering on my own on a self belayed top rope so thinking of buying a bit of semi static and digging out the shunt.

Maybe using a shunt on a 10.5 static attached to harness with a drawer+maillon?
Or would a thinner rope eg 10mm and a gri gri be a more versatile setup?

Haven’t done this for a while so wonder if there’s any top tips ukbers would recommend?

Thanks. Jon

[Serpico]

Maybe using a shunt on a 10.5 static attached to harness with a drawer+maillon?

That set up is going to give quite a hard catch, I'd be concerned about rope/anchor/kidney damage.
I have two setups. One for just going doing some routes, one for working stuff.
The routes set up is:
30m 10mm semi static climbing line
10m 10mm semi static rigging line
3 x rope protector
Shunt connected to belay loop via petzl non-inverting maillon (can't remember the name).
A loop of cord through the eye of the shunt goes to an improvised chest harness to keep it from trailing.
An old style petzl basic (the wraparound handle-less jumar) is attached via a QD to my belay loop and trails a few Cm below the shunt. This is my backup to the shunt, if the shunt fails to engage it will come to rest on this.
In the bottom hole of the basic is a short open sling so I can quickly shift to jugging up or down the rope.
I typically use this on a single rope setup but you can use it on a double with one device on each for greater redundancy.
The setup for working routes is a Death-Modified-GriGri(1) on a dynamic rope, a static doesn't slide through it well enough. The back up for this is regular knots in the rope and making sure you don't fall off the first few metres. If you're working something with a low crux then pre-stretching the rope is essential.

[mrjonathanr]

Thanks Serpico, I think I have all that in the loft somewhere... You'd recommend a 10mm rope over a 10.5? Thinking of buying the Mammut/Teufelberger stuff from Buxton caving supplies.

[Serpico]

I'm not sure what my rope is exactly, it may well be 10.5mm. The thicker the better with a shunt.
Pyschi had a deal on rope protectors if you don't already have any.
The maillon I use:
https://www.inglesport.com/product/petzl-p11-8b/

[Paul B]

Using a Microtraxion is a lot nicer than a shunt, modified GriGri etc. for TR solo.

People also seem to rate the climbing technology roll and lock.

There's a FB group dedicated to this if you're brave enough.

[mrjonathanr]

Thanks Paul, Microtraxion sounds good but pricey. How do you access the FB page please?

[danm]

Good set of tech tips from Petzl here, filterable by activity inc self belay: https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/Rock-climbing

[danm]

The Microcender range are superior to a standard toothed jammer like the Basic for backup because they are much kinder to the rope under a shock load (which is a given as it is being used as a towed backup device) - they tend to slide a little first rather than rupture the rope sheath. A Troll/ISC Rocker or equivalent towed backup device is probably even better. Microtraxions are awesome, worth getting despite the cost as they have many versatile uses in hauling, self rescue etc as well. I carry one plus a Tibloc for sea cliff and other adventurous climbing these days (not that I do that much!) as for long prusiks and rescue they are so much better than prusik loops.

[Paul B]

Thanks Paul, Microtraxion sounds good but pricey. How do you access the FB page please?

It's called "Ropo solo climbing" or something similar and the group admin is Yann Camus:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCskhJI3ZHn6j4R67mo2Nncw

EDIT: https://www.facebook.com/groups/RopeSolo/

They split it earlier this year into two groups, one for TR and one for lead. There's a fair amount of people asking silly questions. The lead one is interesting (from an engineering point of view) that some people are now modifying the WC Revo for use as a lead solo device (as Silent Partners seem to be selling for silly money).

That green company do a MT alternative, the "spoc":
https://www.decathlon.co.uk/edelrid-spoc-progress-capture-id_8587196.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw88v3BRBFEiwApwLevZRVjlYd1M8lPfQmQfb3QG6eTnfLuZO-Tu2OeiDcybaqx9gsiRLNyxoCpxsQAvD_BwE

The group seems to like these:
https://www.northernarbsupplies.co.uk/product/climbing-technology-rollnlock-pulley-and-rope-ascender?gclid=CjwKCAjw88v3BRBFEiwApwLevVTQ6tcygkWPH1P3B43VMvmM9myDDcLbCl6yeJtsWgRvsK1IvpwKdBoCt8EQAvD_BwE

I used my MT a lot last year when getting fit for going abroad. I went to a local venue which is pretty vert and just ran laps (walking off the top each time). I used a GriGri on the rope just off the floor to make sure everything fed easily enough and to ensure I wasn't entirely screwed if I needed to lower off. It's helpfully got stakes and a nice rounded grass edge too.

I can't say I bothered with a backup  .

I think John Middendorf was instrumental in the design of the rescucender non-toothed cams? On a separate note, my Dad allowed me to take a grinder to a GriGri when I was ~16yr old. He had zero understanding of what I was doing or intended to do with it.

I carry one plus a Tibloc for sea cliff and other adventurous climbing these days (not that I do that much!) as for long prusiks and rescue they are so much better than prusik loops.

I had a massive marital disagreement on the Grand Wall when my warning about the MT and the next draw (DMM Phantom, so tiny) wasn't heeded. The MT went through the draw and caused mayhem.

[Johnny Brown]

The Microcender range are superior to a standard toothed jammer like the Basic for backup because they are much kinder to the rope under a shock load (which is a given as it is being used as a towed backup device) - they tend to slide a little first rather than rupture the rope sheath. A Troll/ISC Rocker or equivalent towed backup device is probably even better.

Having pretty much every backup device ever made at my disposal, I tend to opt for the Microtraxion. The advantages of a microcender etc are purely theoretical unless you plan on long falls right below the anchor. If I want a second system I use a Kong back-up on short lanyard. IMHO it's the best of the rocker derivatives for climbing contexts.

I think John Middendorf was instrumental in the design of the rescucender non-toothed cams?

Those Rock Exotica devices were developed from the Gibb's ascender, which I'd guess long pre-dates John. Petzl bought them ~15 years ago.

[Paul B]

Those Rock Exotica devices were developed from the Gibb's ascender, which I'd guess long pre-dates John. Petzl bought them ~15 years ago.

Perhaps I'm paraphrasing what I read on another niche corner of the internet. He was posting drawings and all sorts of stuff.

Do you mean the Kong Duck?

[Nutty]

Do you mean the Kong Duck?

I think he was refering to the Kong Back-up: https://www.kong.it/en/2-products/items/c3-professional/f31-fall-arrester/p398-back-up

[Johnny Brown]

I was. The clue was in me writing 'Kong back-up' not 'Kong Duck'.

[mrjonathanr]

Cunning . Slight cost differential puts it out of my bracket though.  Thanks for all the replies. Have plenty of experience, ex rope access. I have enough shunts, stops, jammers grigri-esque things to run a small job - but all dated over 15 years old now.

 The question is whether buying more kit is merited for a few evening TRs?

[Johnny Brown]

I think historically people have fixated on impact forces and the risk of teeth damaging rope when in reality the risk of excess stretch or the device failing to arrest has greater consequences. Therefore I would always advise following Petzl’s advice and never use a shunt, don’t be afraid to use a jammer  and a low stretch rope.

[danm]

Yeah, on reflection I think my view might be swayed by the fact all the testing I did (and I did a LOT) at Lyon was generally looking at worse case stuff, i.e the longest lanyard people might use and falling right next to the belay. One major access company did use the WC Ropeman as a backup device for a while and that was madness, rope shredding chaos every test I did on it.

[mrjonathanr]

Therefore I would always advise following Petzl’s advice and never use a shunt, don’t be afraid to use a jammer  and a low stretch rope.

Interesting. For 7 years every company I worked for had a Stop on the main rope and Shunt on the safety. Sounds like you’re saying that is bad practice (the Shunt as back up on a cow’s tail)?

[Serpico]

Using a Microtraxion is a lot nicer than a shunt, modified GriGri etc. for TR solo.

I'll probably get a Traxion style device at some point if only for hauling at work, presuming I actually ever work again...
The thing I like about the Shunt is if I have to reverse a couple of moves, to a rest for instance, I can easily slide it down the rope. Can you do that with the MT?
Similarly the advantage with a modified Grigri, when working routes, is being able to instantly switch to abseiling without having to escape the system.

[Paul B]

From my experience not that easily; the spoc has a little pull to release cord. JB pointed out that the MT has also got the ability to accept a cord (there's a small hole in the cam).

[Serpico]

Ultimately I'd like a device to replace the Grigri, that'll slide on a semi static, that I can also use for conventional belaying on a skinny.
I'm also getting more curious about lead soloing, prompted by routes like Militia at the G-Spot where it's basically the only route there and be layers may be reluctant.

[Johnny Brown]

One major access company did use the WC Ropeman as a backup device for a while and that was madness, rope shredding chaos every test I did on it.

It was worse than that when I did it, just chopped the rope! But the manager in question did have a point - there's no point having a device that is kind to the rope if it can't be relied on to engage.

For 7 years every company I worked for had a Stop on the main rope and Shunt on the safety. Sounds like you’re saying that is bad practice (the Shunt as back up on a cow’s tail)

This has basically been my career. In 2000, Lyon won a contract from the HSE to test rope access PPE - I was employed to do the testing. The Shunt performed abysmally. It was the weakest device on test, did the worst in the drop tests and was the easiest to misuse. Since then I've mostly been an IRATA trainer and was contracted to rewrite their training syllabus in 2011. There weren't many alternatives to the Shunt 20 years ago and industry inertia was enormous, but since about five years ago you're highly unlikely to see a Shunt on site. They have been banned in our training centre since ~2012.

There aren't really any proper stats around, but the reason they were considered safe for so long was that the back-up system was so rarely required. When it was, they often failed to arrest falls mainly due to accidental override, but also the fact that once slipping they require very little energy input to keep slipping. This was part of the reason for the only death on the ropes in the North Sea.

The thing I like about the Shunt is if I have to reverse a couple of moves, to a rest for instance, I can easily slide it down the rope. Can you do that with the MT?

You can, but it's definitely fiddlier. But if a hold breaks or a foot slips while you're moving a Shunt you're highly likely to deck. A device like the Kong back-up can be set to move freely up or down, or sprung like a Shunt but doesn't require disabling to adjust.

[mrjonathanr]

Thanks JB. I stopped access work in 2001, so that makes sense.

Paul linked to the Climbing Technology rollnlock. Wondered if that could be easier than the MT to descend to step down?

Teeth in MT look pretty fearsome, wondered if that could affect impact force and damage to sheath in a fall?

[petejh]

Gri-gri hard to beat for all-round ease of use.
Microtraxion runs better, but having the option to go up/down as easily as on a grigri far outweighs for me the benefit of smooth-running if you need to work moves on a route.
 
So it depends on the purpose of the TR soloing - for harder stuff where you want to work moves i.e. going up/down, a grigri. For fitness laps where you don't expect to work moves, a microtraxion. And always use a back-up obvs.

Personally I rarely bother with a back-up rope if I'm using a gri-gri as my TR solo'ing device. Although irrationally sometimes use one if the cliff feels scary because those falls kill you more right. Also irrational in that I haven't actually seen the research showing trails of the gri-gri performance in TR solo'ing falls.

If I'm using a microtraxion I feel more exposed by having a toothed device (even though the research suggests it's safe) but also by the little disengage catch on the side of the device - weird things can happen when your mind's elsewhere working a route.

If using a back-up I'd second using the Kong one, or the ISC RED / Rocker type devices because they trail up the back-up rope pretty effortlessly. (Although good luck dealing with getting anything from ISC!)

[mrjonathanr]

Interesting /alarming grigri test Paul linked to here

[petejh]

Yeah that's an interesting vid and he's a brave man doing that trial without a back-up rope.

Most important take-away from that vid is the length of rope (thus weight of rope) under him being 1.5 - 2m: not enough to engage the cam, as shown.
Usually when TR solo'ing you wouldn't have so short a length of rope underneath you, so the gri-gri- cam would be expected to engage. However you could end up in some weird scenario where you'd got some gear or a bolt in below you and the rope's weight taken by it so the gri-gri didn't engage - for e.g. working moves on an overhanging traversing route with the rope isolated into bolts/gear below to keep yourself in close to the rock. I've done this on various cliffs working out moves on new routes on a gr-gri. It only takes one unlucky moment in a lifetime.

Moral: use a back-up rope (or at least tie a knot!)

[Paul B]

but since about five years ago you're highly unlikely to see a Shunt on site. They have been banned in our training centre since ~2012.

I deal with one particular Contractor who don't seem to accept this. I see their RAMS for other reasons and they regularly include a Shunt in either the RAMS themselves or their rescue plan. I comment, they remove, but next time it's back...

I'm also getting more curious about lead soloing, prompted by routes like Militia at the G-Spot where it's basically the only route there and be layers may be reluctant.

The reason I modified a GriGri all those years ago was that I'd regularly drive from the NE to Kilnsey to meet someone who was invariably, considerably, late. I used to use it to put a TR up on Face Value (believe it or not, other belay options weren't readily available; the crag was often empty) via Diretissima.

I never found it particularly easy (or fulfilling) but perhaps with the use of a MT to deal with the issue of slack etc. might make it less of a PITA. It was a useful skill to have when I re-bolted a few things the other year as I could just get on with it myself.

This Pete Whittaker article might be of interest:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/series/pete_whittaker/how_to_rope_solo_-_with_pete_whittaker-11160

[mrjonathanr]

Ultimately I'd like a device to replace the Grigri, that'll slide on a semi static, that I can also use for conventional belaying on a skinny.
I'm also getting more curious about lead soloing, prompted by routes like Militia at the G-Spot where it's basically the only route there and be layers may be reluctant.

Have you looked at this? https://www.adventureclimbrescue.co.uk/product/taz-lov2/

some of the posters on that facebook rope solo group raved about it.

[Serpico]

I did, sadly it's 10mm minimum. Also the price
I went out with my setup a few days ago (shunt + basic) and it's very slick for repositioning when working moves, but I wouldn't mind making it a bit smaller, particularly the Basic.
Considering this combo:
http://www.grandwallequipment.ca/products/hauling_gear/u_ascend.html
With a trailing micritraxion to replace the Basic.

[Johnny Brown]

That looks suspiciously like a rocker. The Kong is far superior.

[mrjonathanr]

I appreciate that the CT rollNlock would not be as multidirectional as a rocker style device but with a microtraxion looks a really unobtrusive combination for TRS.

[mrjonathanr]

What about MT and Trango Vergo. I have a Cinch which I vastly prefer to the grigri and intend to test it out ASAP as it looks like it will self feed in a way that the grigri won’t. Vergo looks a significant upgrade
https://weighmyrack.com/Belay/Trango-Vergo

[Serpico]

That looks suspiciously like a rocker. The Kong is far superior.

Also looks like a Camp Lift but apparently feeds easier.
The Kong looks the best but is twice the price.
They say you can't put a price on safety, I have - about £50.

[danm]

What about MT and Trango Vergo. I have a Cinch which I vastly prefer to the grigri and intend to test it out ASAP as it looks like it will self feed in a way that the grigri won’t. Vergo looks a significant upgrade
https://weighmyrack.com/Belay/Trango-Vergo

I can't see that working as there is no way to keep it in the correct horizontal position for free rope movement if you are rope soloing? I've used one for normal belaying and would describe it as a Marmite device. I found it too awkward but could see why some people are fans.

[mrjonathanr]

Good point, although I've seen a photo of someone using it. I will see how the Cinch works.

[Yossarian]

The Microcender range are superior to a standard toothed jammer like the Basic for backup because they are much kinder to the rope under a shock load (which is a given as it is being used as a towed backup device) - they tend to slide a little first rather than rupture the rope sheath. A Troll/ISC Rocker or equivalent towed backup device is probably even better.

Having pretty much every backup device ever made at my disposal, I tend to opt for the Microtraxion. The advantages of a microcender etc are purely theoretical unless you plan on long falls right below the anchor. If I want a second system I use a Kong back-up on short lanyard. IMHO it's the best of the rocker derivatives for climbing contexts.

I think John Middendorf was instrumental in the design of the rescucender non-toothed cams?

Those Rock Exotica devices were developed from the Gibb's ascender, which I'd guess long pre-dates John. Petzl bought them ~15 years ago.

Just revisiting this because I want to revisit my shunting setup(s) for the spring.

JB - with a Microtraxion and your Kong Back-Up setup, are both devices on the same rope (or are you using a doubled rope)? And what sort of lanyard is the Back-Up attached with?

I've generally been using 2x Microtraxions with the upper one attached by elastic to a sling round my shoulders to keep it pulled up. I've experimented with a top MT along with a GriGri below, but its a pain in the arse to keep pulling through, so generally put the GriGri on my harness if I might need to go down at some point.

[dunnyg]

Last year I used a shunt and a microtraxion. I used the chest harness on the shunt so that caught me most of the time. Not as easy to zip up and down as it is With a grigri but was reassuring.

[Johnny Brown]

Trying to think if I've ever actually used a second device rope soloing... possibly not soloing for soloing's sake, more returning up fixed lines from abbing in to take pics or do a survey.

If I'm on one rope on a sport or sport-style crag I'd just tie a big knot or put the grigri on like you. But generally if I'm worried enough to want two devices I'd want two ropes. I attach the back-up with either a tied rope cow's tail or lanyard like a petzl connect. The adjustable ones are nice but do add an extra level of complexity that might not be good in fall.

[Paul B]

I've generally been using 2x Microtraxions with the upper one attached by elastic to a sling round my shoulders to keep it pulled up. I've experimented with a top MT along with a GriGri below, but its a pain in the arse to keep pulling through, so generally put the GriGri on my harness if I might need to go down at some point.

I think you might've been on relatively steep ground?

A Cinch will self feed* as the bottom piece and gets used by people cleaning aid pitches as a backup for that reason(that's either from PtPP or Chris McNamara's book, I can't remember which).

*Stonelove - "don't quote me on that"

[csl]

I stumbled across this video on youtube and the accompanying blog post - lead rope soloing is not something I'll be doing myself but was interesting to read/watch.


https://www.brentbarghahn.com/climbing-blog/redpoint-rope-soloing-2021