UKBouldering.com

Lees bottom downgrades (Read 8153 times)

old cheese

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 319
  • Karma: +13/-1
  • does my arse look big in this
Lees bottom downgrades
June 02, 2020, 11:12:05 pm
I noticed that the morning after my ascent of A6 girl at Lee Bottom it was promptly downgraded. Now, I am not just being paranoid here but feel a bit cheated.

For those that have done this it involves a desperate pull off the floor moving into more droppable moves. I have worked this for some time now.

I find it a little tight that this downgrade has happened. I heard that the reason for the downgrade was because this, and the only way is A6 have had a few ascents recently (apparently a quote by the Crag moderator).

This make no sense. People have been locked down, training hard and once the lockdown has eased it coincided with loads of strong, psyched people trying to keep away from the crowds at larger and more popular venues. It is inevitable that more people would visit there than normal and get it done. It doesn’t mean it’s easier now.

By this rule the joker would be 7a given the amount of jumpers that twat up that!

Peeved!!!

abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4289
  • Karma: +341/-25
#1 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 08:05:54 am
I thought 7c+ was fair for those things on the left.

Stu Littlefair

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1836
  • Karma: +283/-2
    • http://www.darkpeakimages.co.uk
#2 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 08:14:08 am
7B+ if you’re short tho.

tomtom

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 20282
  • Karma: +641/-11
#3 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 08:22:27 am
Or wait for a few months for something to drop off and then it’ll be upgraded :)

Footwork

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 634
  • Karma: +63/-0
  • Living With Wads
    • Living With Wads
#4 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 08:28:48 am
People have been locked down, training hard and once the lockdown has eased it coincided with loads of strong, psyched people trying to keep away from the crowds at larger and more popular venues.


Ru

Offline
  • *****
  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1972
  • Karma: +120/-0
#5 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 08:53:17 am
Is this on UKC? Seems a bit unjustified, but I just looked and few people seem to have been clicking the grade consensus thing. Register your opinion on there. The grade on UKC isn't gospel.

Edit: I note that since I posted this, someone has voted for mid 7C, presumably to get the averages down.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 09:53:11 am by Ru »

T_B

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3078
  • Karma: +149/-5
#6 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 08:59:01 am
Given Joe Lawson is the crag moderator on UKC, reading between the lines it’ll be the usual let’s make sure everything on Peak Lime is graded hard and in line with the Tor/X/Rubicon.

So rather than upgrading Hulk and Pump Up the Power to 8a, soft 7c+s get bumped down.

Get yourself to Rocklands Neil for the big numbers!

Bonjoy

Offline
  • *****
  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • Leafy gent
  • Posts: 9932
  • Karma: +561/-8
#7 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 09:11:28 am
Slightly off topic (I haven't done A6 so don't know about the grade), I found the other day that UKC gradelock any climb that is in a Rockfax guide, I.e. the crag moderator can't unilaterally change the grade.
Lobby the right person at UKC/Rockfax and you could get it changed back permanently!

bolehillbilly

Offline
  • ***
  • stalker
  • Posts: 274
  • Karma: +31/-0
#8 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 10:24:53 am
Good tick old man. Just take the grade on the topo, always spot on!

Doylo

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 6694
  • Karma: +442/-7
#9 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 10:32:46 am
Don’t pay attention to stupid logbooks - simples. 

Coops_13

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1206
  • Karma: +75/-0
    • YouTube
#10 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 03:08:30 pm
One thing that I think is quite good on MountainProject (most things aren't good) is that the voting system directly changes the grade of the problem online. So the person first sharing the problem doesn't get full power to keep the grade sandbagged (or not)

Will Hunt

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Superworm is super-long
  • Posts: 7976
  • Karma: +631/-115
    • Unknown Stones
#11 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 03:43:10 pm
I've nothing to say about the grades at Lees Bottom, but on the issue of votes in online databases - things are confused massively by the frailty of the human ego.

If something is clearly overgraded at "Grade X" you'll get a lot of votes confirming it as benchmark or (at best) "low in the grade". Observe: https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/crookrise-541/karjala-187032

For stuff that's clearly undergraded, the message comes through loud and clear: https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/earl_crag-542/hanging_groove-84962

Then there's problems of votes sticking around from before hold breakages/new sequences etc and being bundled in with votes from after the changes. There's all sorts of biases going on.

spidermonkey09

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2818
  • Karma: +159/-4
#12 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 03:51:31 pm
I've nothing to say about the grades at Lees Bottom, but on the issue of votes in online databases - things are confused massively by the frailty of the human ego.

If something is clearly overgraded at "Grade X" you'll get a lot of votes confirming it as benchmark or (at best) "low in the grade". Observe: https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/crookrise-541/karjala-187032

For stuff that's clearly undergraded, the message comes through loud and clear: https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/earl_crag-542/hanging_groove-84962

Then there's problems of votes sticking around from before hold breakages/new sequences etc and being bundled in with votes from after the changes. There's all sorts of biases going on.

Agree with this. Can't see how the MountainProect system would end up with anything but grade inflation.

jamesturnbull97

Offline
  • **
  • addict
  • Posts: 119
  • Karma: +8/-0
#13 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 04:05:25 pm
I've nothing to say about the grades at Lees Bottom, but on the issue of votes in online databases - things are confused massively by the frailty of the human ego.

If something is clearly overgraded at "Grade X" you'll get a lot of votes confirming it as benchmark or (at best) "low in the grade". Observe: https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/crookrise-541/karjala-187032

For stuff that's clearly undergraded, the message comes through loud and clear: https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/earl_crag-542/hanging_groove-84962

Then there's problems of votes sticking around from before hold breakages/new sequences etc and being bundled in with votes from after the changes. There's all sorts of biases going on.
Why don't we all just adopt the Will grading system. If it's piss then 6b+, If you'd had to have a few goes then 7a/+, or if you can't do it it might even scrape 7b+.

Bonjoy

Offline
  • *****
  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • Leafy gent
  • Posts: 9932
  • Karma: +561/-8
#14 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 04:07:49 pm
I'm with Will here, I dont think that's a good system. There are various cognitive biases at work with grade voting already. Add in the power to directly change the grade and you also get perverse incentives in the mix.
Plus you get the ascentionist bias effect  which tends to distort grades on morpho probs. To explain, you have a prob which is reachy for Mr Mean-height, piss for Miss Lank Will, and impossible for Tiny Tim. Time passes and you end up with a bunch of downgrade votes from Wills, a couple of no-change votes from Mean-heights, and nothing from Timmy (he's literally too small to get up it). The grade duly goes down, even though the correct grade is the original (assuming grade convention is followed), and even though it's a total sandbags for a good chunk of climbers.

monkey boy

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1194
  • Karma: +65/-0
#15 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 04:18:10 pm
I think a lot of the problem is ego. I had a great conversation the other day when I challenged a friend as to why he hadn't upgraded a problem that he quite clearly found hard. When he looked back through his logbook he said that at least 50% of the problems a grade higher had actually been easier. He then upgraded the problem.

I used to only downgrade problems, I think it was probably an ego thing but now I upgrade and I downgrade depending on my actual feelings about the problem. Just because something suits you doesn't mean it's piss and just because you find it nails doesn't actually mean it's nails.

Then, like Jon says, you have height and conditions to factor in. Is a problem graded for conditions on the day, average conditions or minty conditions  :worms: ?

Will Hunt

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Superworm is super-long
  • Posts: 7976
  • Karma: +631/-115
    • Unknown Stones
#16 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 04:47:48 pm
Then, like Jon says, you have height and conditions to factor in. Is a problem graded for conditions on the day, average conditions or minty conditions  :worms: ?

I think a better way of thinking about it is to not ask the question "how hard did I find this?", but to try and think of what other climbs it is like and to wonder how it compares to them difficulty wise. So for instance, Rumble in the Jungle feels and climbs similarly to Suavito but has an easier crux and is less sustained - hence my view that it is 7A+ or 7A with the new beta.


If it's piss then 6b+, If you'd had to have a few goes then 7a/+, or if you can't do it it might even scrape 7b+.

There are some really fucking hard (in my opinion) 7B+s out there. Like Crystal Method for instance. I just don't understand how people can say that Code Orange or Fallen Idol can be the same grade. Maybe Crystal Method should go up?  :worms:

Actually, Fallen Idol is a good example of the "low in the grade" phenomenon I mentioned before.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/roche_abbey-1211/fallen_idol-176905

Agree with Bonjoy as well that you won't be scooping in votes from people who get shut down.

Joe Lawson

Offline
  • *
  • newbie
  • Joe
  • Posts: 19
  • Karma: +7/-0
#17 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 05:00:10 pm
Right first of all, whoever has said that I downgraded the boulders on UKC because people have been getting up them recently has taken that out of context. It is the fact that more people have been getting up them and confirming the grade of 7C. There are a variety of factors which contribute to the downgrade include updated beta from the original, less dusty holds (i.e friction dependant pinches) and also bringing the grades in line with the rest of the crag e.g 'Mr Meseeks' at 7C (which sees few repeats comparitively despite being the best moves at the crag) and the original line of the crag 'Far From the Madding Crowd' at 7C+. Not an uncommon thing to happen in the development of bouldering crags, definitely not the first time it's happened on UKC and certainly not a personal attack.

abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4289
  • Karma: +341/-25
#18 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 05:15:00 pm
Well I reckon Mr Meseeks is 7C+ and FFTMC is 7C (there's a kneebar) so we're in a world of pain now  :lol: :worms:

Joe Lawson

Offline
  • *
  • newbie
  • Joe
  • Posts: 19
  • Karma: +7/-0
#19 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 05:32:03 pm
 :worms: Well case in point, beta is always evolving. Been 5 years since I did FFTMC so I'll take your guys word for it. Have heard of new beta though besides kneebarring. This is what the UKC crag moderator role is there for, unfortunately can't please everyone.

abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4289
  • Karma: +341/-25
#20 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 05:41:33 pm
I should caveat that I've never heard of anyone else using a knee, I'm just stiring

monkey boy

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1194
  • Karma: +65/-0
#21 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 05:50:44 pm
Then, like Jon says, you have height and conditions to factor in. Is a problem graded for conditions on the day, average conditions or minty conditions  :worms: ?

I think a better way of thinking about it is to not ask the question "how hard did I find this?", but to try and think of what other climbs it is like and to wonder how it compares to them difficulty wise. So for instance, Rumble in the Jungle feels and climbs similarly to Suavito but has an easier crux and is less sustained - hence my view that it is 7A+ or 7A with the new beta.


If it's piss then 6b+, If you'd had to have a few goes then 7a/+, or if you can't do it it might even scrape 7b+.

There are some really fucking hard (in my opinion) 7B+s out there. Like Crystal Method for instance. I just don't understand how people can say that Code Orange or Fallen Idol can be the same grade. Maybe Crystal Method should go up?  :worms:

Actually, Fallen Idol is a good example of the "low in the grade" phenomenon I mentioned before.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/roche_abbey-1211/fallen_idol-176905

Agree with Bonjoy as well that you won't be scooping in votes from people who get shut down.

How I find it normally includes how it compares to similar problems.

Regarding Lees. I think FFTMC done the old school way is the hardest climb there and Mr Meseeks is after that. I added a low start to A6 (where you start matched) and this is definitely 7C+, maybe 8A but think it's too shit to be repeated!

Joe Lawson

Offline
  • *
  • newbie
  • Joe
  • Posts: 19
  • Karma: +7/-0
#22 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 05:52:53 pm
No me neither, but a double heel method that avoids cranking on the grim holds like you would with the original beta has emerged.

Offwidth

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1767
  • Karma: +57/-13
    • Offwidth
#23 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 07:10:35 pm

I think a better way of thinking about it is to not ask the question "how hard did I find this?", but to try and think of what other climbs it is like and to wonder how it compares to them difficulty wise. So for instance, Rumble in the Jungle feels and climbs similarly to Suavito but has an easier crux and is less sustained - hence my view that it is 7A+ or 7A with the new beta.


That's certainly part of the best way to change a grade. A proviso is you may not realise the differences for a shorter person so you need to watch enough other people and confirm with other climbers you trust as well.


.....a good example of the "low in the grade" phenomenon I mentioned before.....
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/roche_abbey-1211/fallen_idol-176905


It's laughable to trust 6 votes as having any meaning at all unless you know and trust those who voted. A benefit of Mountain Project is the grade views are attached to names.  The real proof UKC voting has bias is that low in the grade VS classics on Stanage all get mid grade VS on hundreds of votes and yet most classic moorland top end VS climbs (ditto in Yorkshire) that would be solid HVS on Stanage don't even get voted borderline HVS on tens of votes. The only explanation is on average the climbers are different (again Mountain Project avoids this with the names).

UKC does usually indicate if routes are major soft touches or sandbags for a grade (but not always... ego and cognitive bias can be a  powerful combination ). Below that you can sometimes factor on large voting numbers for the likely bias. Eg subtract a third to a half a grade for classic popular Stanage VS. With all my experience I think this popular classic should be HS even for Stanage:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/stanage_popular-104/straight_crack-10325

Compare to this with near identical averaged votes:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/kinder_northern_edges-133/misty_wall-16962

Back on bouldering  (putting aside morpho issues like unusual reach) if you know it feels too easy it normally is. If you think it's too hard it could be conditions, missed beta or other factors.  Even people I trust implicitly on grades can on rare occasions miss a weird easier sequence (the mystery 4c method for Verandah Buttress I searched for in vain, until I was shown how, proved that conclusively for me).
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 07:17:30 pm by Offwidth »

old cheese

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 319
  • Karma: +13/-1
  • does my arse look big in this
#24 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 09:11:55 pm
I wanted to open this up in the general way to get this kind of discussion going. It seems unfair that a crag moderator can just change the grade which is what has happened here just because a few people have done it recently and mentioned it to him. If you look on UKC now there is a massive range of opinions from 7b+ (!!) to hard 7c+ for this problem.

I know when I registered my ascent, before the downgrade I plumped for low 7c+ and haven’t changed my opinion on that. I may not have climbed tons of that grade but have done quite a few 7c’s and know it was harder for me, an average 5 10 climber with slightly long arms.

I do understand the subjective nature of grading and have been around long enough to appreciate this but chatting to a couple of mates and downgrading seems a tad shortsighted and egotistical. There are other opinions worth seeking. It does strike me as ‘well, it felt 7c to me’ about it.

It’s a fucking hard move getting off the ground and the heel/toes don’t work if you are my size! Non of that shizzle for me!

Also, both A6 problems are harder than the mr creosote into the only way is A6 link-up which did feel 7c! And that’s a fact

Joe Lawson

Offline
  • *
  • newbie
  • Joe
  • Posts: 19
  • Karma: +7/-0
#25 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 09:35:06 pm
Well the way UKC logbooks work is with crag moderators to be in place to edit information for crags they are familiar with, it's not a perfect system but it works and most people are fairly happy with it. If this annoys you then I'd maybe suggest trying out one of the websites with a logbook feature that allows you to log climbs at whatever grade you feel like e.g 8a.nu or 27crags etc.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 09:52:23 pm by Joe Lawson »

old cheese

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 319
  • Karma: +13/-1
  • does my arse look big in this
#26 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 10:00:51 pm
Well the way UKC logbooks work is with crag moderators to be in place to edit information for crags they are familiar with, it's not a perfect system but it works and most people are fairly happy with it. If this annoys you then I'd maybe suggest trying out one of the websites with a logbook feature that allows you to log climbs at whatever grade you feel like e.g 8a.nu or 27crags etc.

That’s not what I am suggesting Joe. I don’t think that would be helpful. I would think trusting what the first ascentionist (Who I guess would know his onions) and wait until more of a consensus rather than hearsay of a couple of mates and tall climbers beta.

old cheese

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 319
  • Karma: +13/-1
  • does my arse look big in this
#27 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 10:09:33 pm
Well the way UKC logbooks work is with crag moderators to be in place to edit information for crags they are familiar with, it's not a perfect system but it works and most people are fairly happy with it. If this annoys you then I'd maybe suggest trying out one of the websites with a logbook feature that allows you to log climbs at whatever grade you feel like e.g 8a.nu or 27crags etc.


That’s not what I am suggesting Joe. I don’t think that would be helpful as all sorts of egos would bandy weighted opinions about which is clearly what ‘moderators’ seem to be able to do on UKC. Who moderated you? I guess it’s up to us. Just because you might find something easy does not mean it is. We all know climbers are getting stronger and a move like that could suit a board climber.

I would think trusting what the first ascentionist (Who I guess would know his onions) and wait until more of a consensus rather than hearsay of a couple of mates.

Joe Lawson

Offline
  • *
  • newbie
  • Joe
  • Posts: 19
  • Karma: +7/-0
#28 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 10:15:18 pm
To be honest it's the short climbers rather than the tall saying it's easier. It's been a while since the first ascent and this was seemingly the consensus it's been coming to.

But if you're going to continue to throw your toys out of the pram over the issue I'll change it back as I never thought ammending a grade on UKC with a justifiable reason would cause such offence.

old cheese

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 319
  • Karma: +13/-1
  • does my arse look big in this
#29 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 03, 2020, 10:29:41 pm
Sorry Joe, I have avoided getting  personal but you have. I am not throwing my toys out of the the pram at all. I am asking just what measure you use to downgrade problems. You have offered sod all

you say its consensus? Look at UKC and see the consensus there! There isn’t any.

you say that you have justification? All you said is that you spoke to a couple of people.

What I do know is what you said to someone which I don’t think could have been taken out of context

Do what you like. You are twisting this into something it’s not.


Ru

Offline
  • *****
  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1972
  • Karma: +120/-0
#30 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 04, 2020, 09:00:13 am
The voting on UKC is interesting. From 1-2 votes for OWIA6 and A6 Girl yesterday morning, there's now 19 votes, including a bunch of daft low grades like low 7b+. Prior to yesterday everyone seemed to take 7c+  - all 8a.nu entries are at 7c+ and every post I can find on Instagram takes 7c+. It's like Grooved Arete again.


« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 09:22:55 am by Ru »

T_B

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3078
  • Karma: +149/-5
#31 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 04, 2020, 09:36:33 am
19 sends of Working 9-5 stand, 4 votes at mid 7c+, but it’s gone down to 7c. The shorties will be loving that one  :lol:

T_B

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3078
  • Karma: +149/-5
#32 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 04, 2020, 09:43:29 am
Joe - as crag mod can we have some more info for The Wave seeing as folk are logging the problems? Might take the pressure off Lees? I know a couple of years ago it was hush hush but I thought that was less about access and more about the projects having not been done. But presumably anyone operating at 8b+ knows about it now? Thanks.

Bonjoy

Offline
  • *****
  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • Leafy gent
  • Posts: 9932
  • Karma: +561/-8
#33 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 04, 2020, 10:00:35 am
The voting on UKC is interesting. From 1-2 votes for OWIA6 and A6 Girl yesterday morning, there's now 19 votes, including a bunch of daft low grades like low 7b+. Prior to yesterday everyone seemed to take 7c+  - all 8a.nu entries are at 7c+ and every post I can find on Instagram takes 7c+. It's like Grooved Arete again.
Yes, I had a look yesterday and noticed this! Looks like a recent crop of votes, including a number of bottom of the table outliers. Does looks suspiciously like grudge voting (not by anyone on here I'm sure!). Which is another good reason auto grade changing based on votes is not a great idea.
 :lol: I remember the Grooved Arete argument!

Davo

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 442
  • Karma: +24/-4
#34 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 04, 2020, 10:01:06 am
19 sends of Working 9-5 stand, 4 votes at mid 7c+, but it’s gone down to 7c. The shorties will be loving that one  :lol:

Ouch. There goes one of my 7C+s!! To be fair I am 5 foot 11 and thought it was probably bottom end but I certainly found it harder than Paint it Black. Personally I would have thought low 7C+ was fair ...

Nike Air

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 675
  • Karma: +72/-1
#35 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 04, 2020, 10:14:13 am
 :-\
Where is this then?
Joe - as crag mod can we have some more info for The Wave seeing as folk are logging the problems? Might take the pressure off Lees? I know a couple of years ago it was hush hush but I thought that was less about access and more about the projects having not been done. But presumably anyone operating at 8b+ knows about it now? Thanks.

grimer

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1576
  • Karma: +144/-1
#36 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 04, 2020, 10:17:07 am
:-\
Where is this then?
Joe - as crag mod can we have some more info for The Wave seeing as folk are logging the problems? Might take the pressure off Lees? I know a couple of years ago it was hush hush but I thought that was less about access and more about the projects having not been done. But presumably anyone operating at 8b+ knows about it now? Thanks.

You obviously don't climb hard enough to know!

Nike Air

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 675
  • Karma: +72/-1
#37 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 04, 2020, 10:19:40 am
:-\
Where is this then?
Joe - as crag mod can we have some more info for The Wave seeing as folk are logging the problems? Might take the pressure off Lees? I know a couple of years ago it was hush hush but I thought that was less about access and more about the projects having not been done. But presumably anyone operating at 8b+ knows about it now? Thanks.

You obviously don't climb hard enough to know!

 :wavecry: yes there is that!

Offwidth

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1767
  • Karma: +57/-13
    • Offwidth
#38 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 04, 2020, 10:25:25 am
The voting on UKC is interesting. From 1-2 votes for OWIA6 and A6 Girl yesterday morning, there's now 19 votes, including a bunch of daft low grades like low 7b+. Prior to yesterday everyone seemed to take 7c+  - all 8a.nu entries are at 7c+ and every post I can find on Instagram takes 7c+. It's like Grooved Arete again.

There have been several joke grades and a few deliberate incorrect spoiler grades that I know for a fact have been inserted on UKC route logs. To help stop this they should be recording grade votes with the user names... those misusing the system risk looking like a knob or a fool.

36chambers

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1678
  • Karma: +154/-4
#39 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 04, 2020, 10:35:11 am
The voting on UKC is interesting. From 1-2 votes for OWIA6 and A6 Girl yesterday morning, there's now 19 votes, including a bunch of daft low grades like low 7b+. Prior to yesterday everyone seemed to take 7c+  - all 8a.nu entries are at 7c+ and every post I can find on Instagram takes 7c+. It's like Grooved Arete again.

There have been several joke grades and a few deliberate incorrect spoiler grades that I know for a fact have been inserted on UKC route logs. To help stop this they should be recording grade votes with the user names... those misusing the system risk looking like a knob or a fool.

I'm starting to think the 8a.nu approach is the best for grading. You can take what grade you like and everyone knows who's picked what grade. It's been reassuring in the past, when I've seen people of my statue giving personal grades for certain problems.

Duma

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5751
  • Karma: +226/-4
#40 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 04, 2020, 10:38:29 am
I've always thought that you should have your user attached to a grade vote. Tbh I'd go as far as having to register a successful (non anonymous) ascent to be able to vote, though that obviously biases morpho problems toward those suited as mentioned upthread.

In Joe's defence, I'm sure being crag mod is a thankless task, and no one likes getting their project downgraded, whether or not its justified! (Just glad I did The Hatchling before the new Rocklands guide came out and gave it 7C!)

Disclaimer, never been to Lees Bottom, and prob never will.

RobK

Offline
  • ***
  • stalker
  • Posts: 291
  • Karma: +14/-0
#41 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 04, 2020, 10:47:39 am
There have been several joke grades and a few deliberate incorrect spoiler grades that I know for a fact have been inserted on UKC route logs. To help stop this they should be recording grade votes with the user names... those misusing the system risk looking like a knob or a fool.

Agreed. As far as I can tell it doesn't let you vote more than once for the grade so there might be some sort of capacity built in for this?

turnipturned

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 715
  • Karma: +107/-1
#42 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 04, 2020, 10:55:05 am
Quote
I'm starting to think the 8a.nu approach is the best for grading. You can take what grade you like and everyone knows who's picked what grade. It's been reassuring in the past, when I've seen people of my statue giving personal grades for certain problems.

Shame the recent update has turned 8a.nu into complete shite and I can't actually log anything anymore. Good timing though, won't be logging anything for a long time until by collarbone attaches itself back to my shoulder.

Joe Lawson

Offline
  • *
  • newbie
  • Joe
  • Posts: 19
  • Karma: +7/-0
#43 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 04, 2020, 11:09:09 am
Ok final one from me as this has gotten quite out of hand. Firstly 'Old Cheese' made this personal to me from the get go and throughout by twisting hearsay from a conversation at a crag where he was not present, then anonymously posting online in an attempt to make me look bad. Not to mention comments regarding things being easier for the tall etc.
This thread being started in the manner that is was and the continuation of comments to that affect would constitute to throwing toys out of the pram.
It really does seem that this ascent seems to be some sort of culmination of your climbing efforts and I don't want to be the one to take that away from you so I have reinstated the grade as not to cause bad blood, hope you enjoy it. All I was trying to achieve as a crag moderator was to keep grades on the logbooks in keeping with people opinions but really isn't worth this level of agro.
With regards to the Wave, it is not my place to reveal details of it to the greater public, I will leave that up to the developers of the crag as they see fit.

Nike Air

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 675
  • Karma: +72/-1
#44 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 04, 2020, 11:14:01 am

With regards to the Wave, it is not my place to reveal details of it to the greater public, I will leave that up to the developers of the crag as they see fit.

Cool I'm sure someone will want to be the first.

r-man

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Glory lurks beneath the moss
  • Posts: 5030
  • Karma: +193/-3
    • LANCASHIRE BOULDERING GUIDEBOOK
#45 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 04, 2020, 12:18:21 pm
 

With regards to the Wave, it is not my place to reveal details of it to the greater public, I will leave that up to the developers of the crag as they see fit.

The wave was first developed by Dan Warren, in 2006. He no longer lives nearby and I don't think he climbs much anymore.

SA Chris

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 29221
  • Karma: +630/-11
    • http://groups.msn.com/ChrisClix
#46 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 04, 2020, 12:28:49 pm
Because  #boulderinggradesmatter

Will Hunt

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Superworm is super-long
  • Posts: 7976
  • Karma: +631/-115
    • Unknown Stones
#47 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 04, 2020, 01:01:33 pm
Starting to wish that I'd taken 8A for Oops at Brimham, then maybe I'd be cool enough to climb there.

36chambers

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1678
  • Karma: +154/-4
#48 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 04, 2020, 04:24:00 pm
Starting to wish that I'd taken 8A for Oops at Brimham, then maybe I'd be cool enough to climb there.

Climbing higher grades doesn't make you cool, look at Footwork.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 04:33:00 pm by 36chambers »

Yoof

Offline
  • **
  • menacing presence
  • Posts: 183
  • Karma: +14/-0
#49 Re: Lees bottom downgrades
June 04, 2020, 11:24:50 pm
The voting on UKC is interesting. From 1-2 votes for OWIA6 and A6 Girl yesterday morning, there's now 19 votes, including a bunch of daft low grades like low 7b+. Prior to yesterday everyone seemed to take 7c+  - all 8a.nu entries are at 7c+ and every post I can find on Instagram takes 7c+. It's like Grooved Arete again.

There have been several joke grades and a few deliberate incorrect spoiler grades that I know for a fact have been inserted on UKC route logs. To help stop this they should be recording grade votes with the user names... those misusing the system risk looking like a knob or a fool.

The voting thing is interesting, having been on both sides of it. Most of the time if I think a grade needs changing I'll vote rather than writing "7C." to look 'ard in front of everyone. Anonymous voting does give the plus of an ego-less downgrade/upgrade, and I figured that would be how most people treat it. Downside of that is you don't get any sort of "easier for the short"-type information.

For super popular climbs that are on the border it seems that a lot of people use the voting for a slight bit of (maybe subconscious) self-affirmation (look at Three Pebble Slab votes), probably the case if people are psyched or don't have much experience of a grade.

In contrast the anonymous grudge-voting/downgrading Bonjoy mentions feels pretty shitty when it's your FA people are voting on. One of mine that I was mega psyched on was given 10(!) "chuck it in the bin" votes and several downgrade votes.  I'll bet that not all of the voters had tried it. Not sure if it would have been better or worse with names attached...

To summarise:
(1) You can't trust anyone's opinion whether it's anonymous or not.
(2) People vote on grade and quality based on how big they think their dick is, or on how psyched they are to have done a climb, or sometimes honestly how they found it.
(3) Everything is subjective, and therefore all grades should come with a +/- 3 grade margin.

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal