[steveri]

Boulder Hut on the Wirral has pre-booked 2h slots at regular rates. New slots every half hour. There's no klaxon after 2h but seems to self police ok. They've extended memberships too I think.

[fatneck]

Local wall has just re-opened, frozen all annual memberships and multipasses, charging flat rate £7.50 for an hour of either climbing or bouldering, or £15 for two hours of climbing, need to book in advance.

This is madness!!

The Climbing Hangar have been brilliant - they froze all memberships while they were closed and when they re-opened only charged us 50% of the usual fee for the first month (the marketing was that this was worth 15 sessions free) before they started charging again. Now it's pre-booked sessions only - 3 hour sessions off peak and 2 hours at peak times. In addition, the main site at Sandhills has been significantly refurbished during lock down and at £27 per month for "unlimited" climbing I feel pretty lucky it's my local!

Nice one Ged

[SA Chris]

Maybe Ged needs to expand Northwards too, as part of global domination.

[Bradders]

Local wall has just re-opened, frozen all annual memberships and multipasses, charging flat rate £7.50 for an hour of either climbing or bouldering, or £15 for two hours of climbing, need to book in advance.

Curious if any other walls in the UK have adopted this approach? Prices me out of taking the kids for a decent session; I usually belay them for a bit, then while they have a snack and a chill out I boulder for a bit.

I think a lot of walls make a considerable slice of their profits not from really keen climbers (and definitely not outdoor climbers), but from kids groups, parties, indoor only climbers and parents buying a drink and snack while waiting for the above. Before all of this those groups may well have effectively been subsidising people like me who buy a membership but otherwise spend practically no other money there. If the customer groups previously subsidising everyone else have dried up (which they presumably have done for many walls, or at least reduced), then you can understand why a price rise would affect the other groups.

That will be exacerbated if a) it's the only real option in the area, so it doesn't have competition to deal with (an hour's drive is pretty far to go for a wall session if you ask me), and b) the population density isn't high enough in the local area to cover fixed costs at the lower price point.

The walls in big cities are covered by both those factors, hence prices stay low.

Yup, understand they are in financial difficulty, but fleecing customers is not the way out of it, Especially when weather is (half) decent, and there are so many new home boards about. Friend went the other evening, she said there were 4 people in.

I mean, one person's "fleecing" is another person's "only way of staying in business....

That said, 1hr just isn't enough for any sort of climbing session. Takes me an hour just to do a quick fingerboard sesh! Surely there's a better sweet spot price point they could hit. 

Out of interest which wall is it Chris?

[SA Chris]

Transition Extreme, Aberdeen.

All valid points, but as you say, the price point is not where it should be. The climbing population is sufficient that at peak times just about every line in the centre is being used.

An hour might seem like a long way to drive, but the bouldering section is pretty poor, to the point that even in good times, I know of a lot of people who would happily head to Central Belt climbing facilities on a wet weekend to get a decent session in. And it's an easy drive by English standards.

[sdm]

Local wall has just re-opened, frozen all annual memberships and multipasses, charging flat rate £7.50 for an hour of either climbing or bouldering, or £15 for two hours of climbing, need to book in advance.

Curious if any other walls in the UK have adopted this approach? Prices me out of taking the kids for a decent session; I usually belay them for a bit, then while they have a snack and a chill out I boulder for a bit.

Ours was similar when they first re-opened (seems a long time ago now!). Memberships were frozen when the walls closed in March and initially stayed frozen. Prebooked slots only and you had to book in for either roped climbing or bouldering/training areas. You could book as little as 5 minutes in advance if there were spaces.

I can't find their original reopening prices but I think it was something along the lines of:
2 hour sessions: £11.00, 2.5hr sessions £13.50. Another nearby wall started off at £14.50 for 2 hours but has now reduced to £9.50.

Once they had been open a few weeks, they started allowing people to stay on at the end of their slots as long as there was capacity in the next slot. Only the 17.30-20.00 slot regularly fills so you can effectively now stay as long as you like at other times. They also slashed the prices of the quietest sessions so arrivals between 6am and 10am dropped down to £5.50. You can now move freely between bouldering/training and ropes if capacity allows.

They have now reintroduced memberships and multipasses, with the option for people to keep theirs frozen if they weren't ready to return yet.

If you avoid peak times, it has been very quiet. Mask wearing is enforced around reception and encouraged elsewhere but the number of people bothering to wear one is disappointing. Adherence to distancing measures is as mixed as everywhere else.

The pricing would have put me off if I was taking kids too (they were full price at first). Southern rent prices suck.

[Bradders]

Transition Extreme, Aberdeen.

All valid points, but as you say, the price point is not where it should be. The climbing population is sufficient that at peak times just about every line in the centre is being used.

An hour might seem like a long way to drive, but the bouldering section is pretty poor, to the point that even in good times, I know of a lot of people who would happily head to Central Belt climbing facilities on a wet weekend to get a decent session in. And it's an easy drive by English standards.

Had a skim through their Facebook posts. Does sound like a bit of a cluster fuck. Like initially saying parents coming in solely to belay their children would have to pay?!

[SA Chris]

Pricing now revised, 2 hr session on ropes is now £10, no change for bouldering which is daft.

[Bonjoy]

Just a thought, in case anyone had looked into this more closely and knows the details.
I’m guessing many/most have downloaded the NHS Covid app. I have to have it in order to check in to my office (mostly I work from home).
So the app works on proximity to other phones with the app. This means if you go to a climbing wall, even if it’s a huge open venue and everyone is very spread out, most people’s phones will be sat in bags/coats, all crowded together in racks of lockers. Therefore, to the app it will look like everyone in the wall has sat on top of each other’s heads for several hours. Is this going to mean one CV case will lead to everyone at the wall that night having to quarantine for two weeks, regardless of actual bodily proximity??








Note: I've retitled this thread to more accurately cover the general Covid climbing wall discussion it has become

[tomtom]

You're advised that if you leave your phone in a locker to switch the bluetooth tracing function off. In the app there's a pretty obvious slider/switch to do this.

[Will Hunt]

Is there a difference in how the QR code scanning and how the proximity tracing works? I know that the proximity tracing data is anonymised and relies upon people reporting their positive tests to the app, but is it the same for the QR code? I was speaking to my brother in Singapore this morning and he told me that their QR code system (which is all they have) is there so that contact tracers can call you up and find out more about your whereabouts within a premises i.e. it's not a case of quarantining everyone who went to the restaurant, they might just quarantine those who were sat near the positive case.

Not that that would really work in a climbing wall as everyone is milling around all the time.

[Bonjoy]

You're advised that if you leave your phone in a locker to switch the bluetooth tracing function off. In the app there's a pretty obvious slider/switch to do this.

Okay, cheers. Have only just downloaded and not had a play with yet.
I can see the value of this feature, but on the flipside it does mean I'm turning the app's functionality off at the time when I'm most likely to meet someone with CV19 (having had it switched on all day while sat upstairs at home). Presumably even if I left it on I would get no alert if the CV19 guy at the wall had switched their bluetooth off. Apologies if I'm totally missing how this works!

[tomtom]

I think some common sense (oh no!!) is required in how its used... and its clearly not a 'silver bullet' solution.

AFAIK it times how long and how close you are to another phone... and then there is an algorithm that assigns a risk of exposure to that combination. E.G. 0.5m away for 10 min is much worse than 3m away for 20 min etc... It won't be that simple but you get the jist. So yes - if you leave it in a locker next to another phone and then that person tests positive - it will think you were having a cuddle with the other person for a couple of hours - rather than being at opposite ends of the wall.

I normally keep my phone with me when I'm at the wall (I've not been since covid mind) so if it were in my chalk bucket pocket where it normally is - then if someone else has their phone in the same way it will work fine for the proximity tracking.

Living in a terrace I can see the phones of neighbours both sides on bluetooth - so thats an issue too I guess!

Where I see it being useful is if I'm stood next to someone in the que to drop off the lad at school for ten min who tests positive and has the app. Or if I'm in a bar/restaurant (I don't go there anymore..) and near someone who tested positive etc..

A false positive (e.g. my neighbour getting it but there being bricks and mortar between us) would be a pain as I suspect I would now legally be obliged to isolate for 14 days... but probably better to have a few too many false +ves than -ves...

[Will Hunt]

There's a clear and simple summary of how it works here.
https://covid19.nhs.uk/risk-scoring-algorithm.html


I wouldn't be turning it on at home so as to avoid false positives with adjoining neighbours.

[James Malloch]

A false positive (e.g. my neighbour getting it but there being bricks and mortar between us) would be a pain as I suspect I would now legally be obliged to isolate for 14 days... but probably better to have a few too many false +ves than -ves...

I thought that you only have to legally isolate when called by someone from Test & Trace, and this app is advisory. I think that's also how some companies (I know it's happened at a Sainsburys near a friend) have not allowed staff time off work after being notified by the app...

The below is from the MEN: https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-contact-tracing-apps-self-18989026

Matt Hancock has said that people who are asked to self-isolate by the newly-launched NHS trace app after coming into contact with someone with coronavirus are not subject to a 'legal requirement.'

Does anyone know how it works in practice? If I get a notification does it tell me exactly where I came into contact with someone? I guess that, whilst it's still in the early day's I'd probably want to make a judgement on the situation before deciding if I should isolate.

Taking Tom's comments, e.g. if it was in a queue at a school I'd be more convinced it was a true exposure to the virus compared to if it said I was at home.

[sdm]

There's a clear and simple summary of how it works here.
https://covid19.nhs.uk/risk-scoring-algorithm.html


I wouldn't be turning it on at home so as to avoid false positives with adjoining neighbours.

"For the purposes of contact tracing, a high-risk encounter is classed as one where an individual has been within 2 metres of someone who has tested positive for Coronavirus for at least 15 minutes."

If this is true, it makes the app completely useless for anyone who takes social distancing at all seriously. I will not reach that threshold with someone who wouldn't have contacted me outside the app anyway.

It talks further up the page about shorter distances being higher risk but then appears to say this isn't considered in deciding whether someone teachers the isolation threshold.

It is worth noting that the text I quoted above is unchanged from the IoW beta version of the app from August. It could be that the threshold has been updated for the full release and the words haven't?

But unless there is confirmation that shorter distances are treated differently for calculating the isolation threshold, I won't download the app.

[Fiend]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54320482

From Monday, it will be a punishable offence not to comply with an official instruction to self-isolate, with fines starting at £1,000 and rising to £10,000 for repeat offenders or serious breaches.

The law applies to people who have tested positive for coronavirus, or who have been told by NHS Test and Trace to self-isolate because they have been in close contact with someone with the virus.

I paid quite a bit of attention to this article, and I swear the following paragraph was added after my first reading of it:

If the app tells you to self-isolate, you're supposed to, but it is not a legal requirement in the same way as when you test positive for the virus or are contacted directly by NHS test and trace.

Which supports what James said.

Interesting examples posted above.

[Will Hunt]

"For the purposes of contact tracing, a high-risk encounter is classed as one where an individual has been within 2 metres of someone who has tested positive for Coronavirus for at least 15 minutes."

If this is true, it makes the app completely useless for anyone who takes social distancing at all seriously. I will not reach that threshold with someone who wouldn't have contacted me outside the app anyway.

It talks further up the page about shorter distances being higher risk but then appears to say this isn't considered in deciding whether someone teachers the isolation threshold.

It is worth noting that the text I quoted above is unchanged from the IoW beta version of the app from August. It could be that the threshold has been updated for the full release and the words haven't?

But unless there is confirmation that shorter distances are treated differently for calculating the isolation threshold, I won't download the app.

I'd suggest reading the page fully before springing to conclusions. It explains what updates have been made since the IoW test and that further updates can be made in an evidence based way as more data becomes available.

The page also explains that 2m is not the only distance threshold that can trigger a high-risk encounter. Encounters between 2m and 4m are also considered as Medium risk which accumulates risk at half the rate - i.e. you'd have to be stood between 2m and 4m away from someone who tested positive for Covid for 30 mins for it to be considered high risk. This is adjusted according to how far out the Case is from the onset of their symptoms - so if it was the day before or the day after you'd have to be nearer them for a bit longer (not sure by how much exactly).

The page explains why the distances are lumped into groups. There is a degree of uncertainty involved for technical and practical reasons (there is uncertainty in GPS positioning and Bluetooth signal strength gauging; and there is variation in where the device will be carried on people's bodies - for instance a lady might carry it in her handbag).



What I'm not sure about is whether it stacks risk from separate encounters. So let's say I wait in a queue and stand 3m from the person in front of me and behind me. We're like this for 20 minutes. They each go home and begin displaying symptoms. Positive tests follow. If those encounters are considered individually then I don't get alerted; if they're accumulated then I do.

[tomtom]

No GPS involved Will.

Problem is using the strength of the Bluetooth signal as a proxy for distance. Which sounds fine, but the signal is not a constant ‘strength’ as the phone is cleverly always changing the strength of the BT transmission to save battery life. Makes it tricky.

The app stores which devices its been close to - but not where (unless you were checked in via QR code).

[Will Hunt]

No GPS involved Will.

Problem is using the strength of the Bluetooth signal as a proxy for distance. Which sounds fine, but the signal is not a constant ‘strength’ as the phone is cleverly always changing the strength of the BT transmission to save battery life. Makes it tricky.

The app stores which devices its been close to - but not where (unless you were checked in via QR code).

My mistake. I'm using it on Android which requires "location services" to be on to make use of the Bluetooth proximity thing. At first glance I'd assumed that meant GPS too but it's just to give the phone permission to do the proximity thing with Bluetooth.

[sdm]

"For the purposes of contact tracing, a high-risk encounter is classed as one where an individual has been within 2 metres of someone who has tested positive for Coronavirus for at least 15 minutes."

I'd suggest reading the page fully before springing to conclusions. It explains what updates have been made since the IoW test and that further updates can be made in an evidence based way as more data becomes available.

I read the full page first. The wording in the Risk Thresholds and Notifications section is unambiguous and is the only part of the page that defines what the requirements are for a notification to be triggered.

However, after further reading, I'm fairly confident that this is a failure of communication, not a failing in the app.

What I'm not sure about is whether it stacks risk from separate encounters. So let's say I wait in a queue and stand 3m from the person in front of me and behind me. We're like this for 20 minutes. They each go home and begin displaying symptoms. Positive tests follow. If those encounters are considered individually then I don't get alerted; if they're accumulated then I do.

There is nothing to say that it stacks; it seems safe to assume that it doesn't.

[SA Chris]

Shift this discussion to the other thread?

Anyway, I went down on Sunday afternoon with the kids which you would think might be busy-ish, it wasn't great climbing weather. Of the capacity of 25 climbers and 9 boulderers, there were us (I didn't have to pay as a belayer), plus another group of 4, and another pair, plus 2 people bouldering. We stayed over our allotted 2 hours, because there were just 2 people who came in to climb, and I had paid for an hour of bouldering, with only 1 other person bouldering. The skate park seemed busy, must be carrying the climbing wall financially for a change.

[mrjonathanr]

Local wall has just re-opened, frozen all annual memberships and multipasses, charging flat rate £7.50 for an hour of either climbing or bouldering, or £15 for two hours of climbing, need to book in advance.

This is madness!!

Quite. Pex is free 😉. Just saying...

[SA Chris]

He was quoting me. Long way from Pex, but yes, been out on the coast a lot. Getting dark very early now though.

[mrjonathanr]

I know but Fatneck isn't... But outside is cool. incredible (to me; middle aged bore,) that so many younger climbers I speak to see climbing as an indoor activity, unsullied by dirt and rain and sharp rocks and things.