[abarro81]

Is there any  reason for the BMC not to publish its correspondence with various police forces? Obviously people are putting their own on FB, and the conclusion will probably be the same (i.e. the police don't have a clue*) but it would be interesting to see what different forces are saying, even if only out of idle curiosity.

* E.g. on some FB groups you see Derbyshire police saying to one person that you can drive a short way no problem, and pushing others hard not to drive at all for their exercise, despite being asked basically the same Q. It surprises me they don't make internal policies and stick to that, surely easier than having to make a judgement call each time you interact with someone?

[petejh]

The BMC have been in touch with the police who have given no such reassurance about climbing, so the BMC cannot say that there is no risk to climbing.

Ru, who in 'The Police' have the BMC asked?

Is it not the case that, like in most things in life, the answer you receive depends on who you ask? I'm not suggesting they have, but 'IF' the BMC wanted a negative opinion to back up their stance, then they could very easily get one. But that isn't how we as climbers usually operate with access issues - we all break minor access guidance that if you asked for an official opinion you'd be told don't go.


Below is the current advice from Surf England (my emphasis added):
(exchange 'surfing' for climbing.)
…….

The government advice is changing daily, this note reflects the position on the 22/03/2020 and is not a substitute for checking the advice directly on .gov.uk.

Should I be surfing through the coronavirus crisis?

This is a question heavy on many surfers minds.   The government has issued advice to help with that call, so you can make a decision that reflects both your personal circumstances and your wider social obligations.

Our guiding principle here, is that we follow the advice from government.  So let’s break that down.

If you or someone you live with has coronavirus or symptoms, then you should be staying at home and self isolating.   This means not going surfing.

The guidance on self isolation is here:  https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-stay-at-home-guidance

Everyone should be following the guidance on social distancing, which is about reducing social interaction to reduce the transmission of COVID-19. The guidance does allow for outside exercise (staying >2 meters from other people).  The full guide is here:  https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-guidance-on-social-distancing-and-for-vulnerable-people/guidance-on-social-distancing-for-everyone-in-the-uk-and-protecting-older-people-and-vulnerable-adults

It is an individual decision based on your specific circumstances.  Someone caring for high risk family members is bound to have a different perspective compared to someone with no dependants.

If you do decide to head out, please bear in mind the stress on all our emergency and healthcare services and don’t take any unnecessary risks, surf well within your capabilities and take care getting to and from the sea.  You may also want to consider going at quieter times and please take note of any local notices as certain beaches or access points may have restrictions.

What is Surfing England doing in response to coronavirus? 

We’re keeping a very close brief on the government’s guidance, which provides the backbone to all our decision making through this period.   The steps we are taking include:

Regular updates for our surf schools and clubs on the evolving position, so they can make informed decisions about their operations
Updates on the governments support packages and how our surf schools will be able to access vital financial support
Closing the Surfing England office and our team are all working remotely
Our full events programme is under review, including announcement of our AGM, for which we are investing online options
We are in touch with Sport England to understand what support may be available for clubs and the sport more widely
Our surf coach trainers are working with us and the ISA to look at developing online modules so we help new coaches and make sure the industry is ready to pick back up when we are through the crisis.

Why haven’t the beaches been closed like Spain and other EU countries?

We have been challenged on this a few times.   It’s important to be clear on two points.

Firstly, the response in each country is based on their specific situation.  Factors like levels of infection, population size, density and demographic, cultural and societal norms, availability of healthcare etc all play into that country’s decision.     Because the situation is different for everyone, you will continue to see a range in the type and level of response between nations.

Secondly, it is simply not our call or within our power to close beaches or ban surfing.   That responsibility sits with the UK government and we will continue to follow their advice.

We are in unchartered waters, and we don’t have all the answers, but we’re 100% committed to supporting, and pulling together with our amazing surfing community to get us through these tough times.

Stay in touch with us on social and keep safe.

Ben Powis
Operations Director, Surfing England

…….

[petejh]

The position of the Swiss Alpine Club:

……………

An interview with Bruno Hasler - Head of Training and Safety at SAC

Can you climb and boulder in times of the Corona crisis?
Yes, that's basically ok.

Under what conditions is it okay to go climbing or bouldering?
One should behave in such a way that there are as few accidents as possible and risky routes are avoided. They also apply in the climbing gardens and bouldering areas Federal recommendations. In particular, it is important to “keep your distance”. If too many climbers climb in the same sector, you should change the sector. It is also important to only climb with people from the same household, or at least always with the same person. In addition, the travel distances must be kept as small as possible

The SAC recommendation thus contradicts the federal recommendation. What do you say?
We are aware of this. We try to do the balancing act between the very restrictive recommendation of the federal government "stay at home" and a somewhat open recommendation. We hope that the recommendations will be better adhered to.

In a specific case, is it okay if someone from Zurich is bouldering in the Murgtal or climbing at the Galerie Süd near Amden?
Everyone has to decide for themselves. Murgtal or Galerie is certainly better than when a Zurich man travels to the Bernese Oberland.

What about ski touring and mountaineering?
Discussions are currently taking place in this regard. Details will be communicated in good time.


Rules of conduct for climbers and boulderers in Switzerland:
Only climb in well-secured routes
Avoid dangerous bouldering (e.g. highballs)
Follow the recommendations of the federal government - also on the rock
Climb only with people from the same household or always with the same person
Changes the sector when too many people are present
Do not visit distant climbing and bouldering areas

Note: These rules are now valid (as of April 22, 2020). Should the situation worsen locally or nationwide, they lose their “validity”.

....................

[shark]

New BMC article up:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/what-is-the-bmc-access-team-doing

Includes about planning for post CV

[Ru]

Ru, who in 'The Police' have the BMC asked?

Is it not the case that, like in most things in life, the answer you receive depends on who you ask? I'm not suggesting they have, but 'IF' the BMC wanted a negative opinion to back up their stance, then they could very easily get one. But that isn't how we as climbers usually operate with access issues - we all break minor access guidance that if you asked for an official opinion you'd be told don't go.

I don't know the details, but so far as I am aware (and reading between the lines somewhat) the police just refused to give any useful advice at all. Which would be fairly standard for most bodies in the UK with a regulatory function. It means we haven't thought about it, we don't want to commit to an answer that could be quoted back at us, and we reserve the right to decide you've done something wrong at a later stage.

[SA Chris]

Ru, who in 'The Police' have the BMC asked?

FFS, this such an open goal..

[Ru]

Ru, who in 'The Police' have the BMC asked?

FFS, this such an open goal..

The Police said you can go climbing as long as you don't stand so close to me.

[spidermonkey09]

I think its very likely that the climbing guidance will end up very similar to the Swiss. Dont know off the top of my head how bad their outbreak was, but I suspect ours was considerably worse, so its reasonable to assume we will take a few weeks to get there. Ditto Austria.

I think the surfing argument holds some good lessons for us, with the caveats Ru offers, but I would maintain that social distancing is considerably easier in the sea than at Stanage Plantation and the numbers involved are an order of magnitude different.

given the above, I think DanMs advice to chill out a bit and wait to see what happens still holds to be honest. Everyone wants to get outside but the national conversation is on the process of changing. Sturgeons paper outlining what the next stage might look like in Scotland seems pretty reasonable to me, and presuming that is replicated across the UK I think its pretty likely we'll be climbing in some form in a few weeks.

[shark]

Ru, who in 'The Police' have the BMC asked?

FFS, this such an open goal..

Are you thinking Stewart Copeland?

[petejh]

New BMC article up:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/what-is-the-bmc-access-team-doing

Includes about planning for post CV

That BMC article STILL conflicts with what the CPS police guidance ACTUALLY SAYS. 

The CPS/Police guidance:
''Likely to be Reasonable: Driving to countryside and walking (where far more time is spent walking than driving).

Exercise can come in many forms, including walks. Exercise must involve some movement, but it is acceptable for a person to stop for a break in exercise. However, a very short period of ‘exercise’ to excuse a long period of inactivity may mean that the person is not engaged in ‘exercise’ but in fact something else. It is lawful to drive for exercise.''
..

Contrast the official guidance, with the BMC's latest article:

BMC
''The advice around getting outside currently remains the same; stay local and don’t drive, ensure you keep at least two metres away from other people and hand wash/sanitise after touching any shared surfaces, e.g. stiles/gates.''
..

Is that the BMC's official position? Is it an accidental misrepresentation of the guidance? Is it an opinion piece?
It's impossible to tell - because they write 'The advice' rather than 'The government's advice' or 'The BMC's advice'.

Edit: Actually I get the strong impression now that the BMC are terrified of their own members swamping the countryside. This is reflected in them twice refusing to acknowledge in public the official CPS guidance that it's reasonable to drive to go and do exercise. They seem to believe that their role is not to represent climbers/hillwalkers but to control them.

[mrjonathanr]

It is not the gov advice, so it is the BMC's advice.

I think it is difficult for them as said, but it does not help that communications are so poor

[SA Chris]

I found interesting seeing how different sports approached the lockdown rules, and out of the bunch surfing seems to be in stark contrast to cimbing.......We are not doing ourselves any favours while our community and the BMC are our biggest critics

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-52270658

This happened locally. Whether the callout (made by a member of the public) was well intended, or done out of malice towards a "scab" surfer we will never know. However, it got a high profile and reiterated the RNLI's request to not surf.

Some key differences though; surfing is not perceived (rightly or wrongly) as a high risk sport (like "rock climbing") and generally there are no major access issues when it comes to accessing most surf spots.

[gme]

First hand experiance of London today. I could go out bouldering with ever single mate I had for a day, all trying the same problem and not come close to being anywhere near as much of a risk as the 100s I can see in Mile End park.

[csl]

First hand experiance of London today. I could go out bouldering with ever single mate I had for a day, all trying the same problem and not come close to being anywhere near as much of a risk as the 100s I can see in Mile End park.

I've been shocked by the number of people sitting in parks here too. However it's worth remembering that this lockdown will be a hell of a lot harder for people stuck in small flats without any outdoor space, which is likely to be a lot of people in London.

[petejh]

Ru, who in 'The Police' have the BMC asked?

Is it not the case that, like in most things in life, the answer you receive depends on who you ask? I'm not suggesting they have, but 'IF' the BMC wanted a negative opinion to back up their stance, then they could very easily get one. But that isn't how we as climbers usually operate with access issues - we all break minor access guidance that if you asked for an official opinion you'd be told don't go.

I don't know the details, but so far as I am aware (and reading between the lines somewhat) the police just refused to give any useful advice at all. Which would be fairly standard for most bodies in the UK with a regulatory function. It means we haven't thought about it, we don't want to commit to an answer that could be quoted back at us, and we reserve the right to decide you've done something wrong at a later stage.

I expected that to be the case.

I'm not criticising you (far from it). But when you wrote earlier ''The BMC have been in touch with the police who have given no such reassurance about climbing, so the BMC cannot say that there is no risk to climbing.''

and
''but this [advice to not surf] was ignored allowing the police to come to terms with the idea, presumably after a few close shaves.If the police have now said that surfing is ok, within limits, that's great.''

Could you not have also phrased that as ''I don't know whether or not the police have said surfing is reasonable. Surfers have been going surfing.The BMC have been in touch with the police, who have given no reassurance that climbing is or isn't considered reasonable, so the BMC cannot say that there is or isn't a risk to going climbing

You can't expect the BMC to recommend that though.

Why not? This is exactly what Surf England - a body that represents a similar group of outdoor recreation enthusiasts - have said. To quote them:
It is an individual decision based on your specific circumstances.  Someone caring for high risk family members is bound to have a different perspective compared to someone with no dependants.
If you do decide to head out, please bear in mind the stress on all our emergency and healthcare services and don’t take any unnecessary risks, surf well within your capabilities and take care getting to and from the sea.  You may also want to consider going at quieter times and please take note of any local notices as certain beaches or access points may have restrictions.

Why do you not believe the BMC could have said that or very similar?
What do you believe the role of the BMC to be, if not to represent the best interests of climbers and hilwalkers?
I'm presuming here that the BMC doesn't believe it exists to attempt to best represent the legal interests of individual climbers and hillwalkers - as surely that would be better done by a lawyer.

[shark]

I'm a bit perplexed that the BMC communications can seem so very poor to some...

The initial guidance to stay off the hills came after the UKC article with the same message and slightly just pipped Boris's shutdown post.

After that we had a three week vacuum of communication which was unacceptably poor.

Things have improved over the last couple of days maybe because the evident agitation on social media got through. There is still a lot of room for improvement. Ive had it commented that the first 15 minute preamble by Dave in the Q&A was "all a bit woe is me/us" and I dont disagree.

Access and Freedoms at the crags and in the Hills is the primary function of the BMC. This sort of situation is when the BMC should really be springing into reaction and seen to be springing into action. Especially by the leadership.

Could. Do. Better.

[Ru]

Pete, I was replying to Lopez' post that stated, "statements began coming out from the Police saying they had been monitoring the situation closely and were happy that people surfing were within the rules/guidelines and behaving responsibly." I then went on to say that, if that was the case, the surfing representative bodies are in a different position to the BMC, which has received no such assurances from the police.

[petejh]

Ah OK thanks.

But in that case, why wouldn't the BMC, looking at the fact that surfers are going out surfing, at the vey least conclude that climbing is in a similar position to surfing?

Why would the BMC instead conclude that: ''The advice around getting outside currently remains the same; stay local and don’t drive,'' (despite CPS guidance saying driving for exercise is likely reasonable).

I can't understand the gulf in approaches. One is quietly supportive and the other is actively unsupportive.

[Ru]

I've no idea if the BMC know/knew about the surfing situation. I didn't, until I read that post from Lopez.

[petejh]

Most people would agree the primary role of the BMC is to support our ability to go climbing, hillwalking and mountaineering. Right now lack of access is the biggest threat to our ability to do what we enjoy.

It's been 4 weeks since the Surf England advice was issued. In that time did no-one in the BMC think to look at what other similar organisations representing outdoor recreation were saying to their members about access?

[Ru]

It's been 4 weeks since the Surf England advice was issued. In that time did no-one in the BMC think to look at what other similar organisations representing outdoor recreation were saying to their members about access for their activities?

10 minutes later I still don't know the answer.

[T_B]

Where’s the updated Surfing England statement?

The latest advice on their website is from 10 April and says “Our preference is to stay out of the water”.

https://www.surfingengland.org/latest-advice-10-04-2020/

[petejh]

It's been 4 weeks since the Surf England advice was issued. In that time did no-one in the BMC think to look at what other similar organisations representing outdoor recreation were saying to their members about access for their activities?

10 minutes later I still don't know the answer.

 
Rhetorical question, but a valid one.


TB: The advice is here: https://www.surfingengland.org/latest-corona-virus-update-22-03-2020/

They say on April 4th: ''We all have tough personal choices to make.   Our preference is to stay out the water.   We hope you will join us, and the thousands of surfers who are standing in solidarity with the NHS, doing every little we can to help prevent the spread of Covid 19 and reducing the pressure on all our frontline services.
The current state is temporary, it will end, and the waves will still be there for us when it does.''

But this is on the back of their guidance earlier: 'Everyone should be following the guidance on social distancing, which is about reducing social interaction to reduce the transmission of COVID-19. The guidance does allow for outside exercise (staying >2 meters from other people).
It is an individual decision based on your specific circumstances.  Someone caring for high risk family members is bound to have a different perspective compared to someone with no dependants.
If you do decide to head out, please bear in mind the stress on all our emergency and healthcare services and don’t take any unnecessary risks, surf well within your capabilities and take care getting to and from the sea.  You may also want to consider going at quieter times and please take note of any local notices as certain beaches or access points may have restrictions.

'Preference' seems a sensible choice of word. It suggests nuance. They acknowledge people going surfing with 'it's an individual decision.'' and ''If you decide to head out''.

[SA Chris]

Ru, who in 'The Police' have the BMC asked?

FFS, this such an open goal..

Are you thinking Stewart Copeland?

Yup, Plus Gordon Summers and Andy Summers

[Johnny Brown]

Secondly, it is simply not our call or within our power to close beaches or ban surfing. That responsibility sits with the UK government and we will continue to follow their advice.

I think this is the key section from the surfing statement. The BMC should be saying something similar.

I can't understand the gulf in approaches. One is quietly supportive and the other is actively unsupportive.

Obviously one big difference is that in Cornwall, where the I believe the discussions with the police were, there is a large local surfing community, many of whom are able to access the water without travelling. That shaped the debate. The presumption in climbing has been that no such people exist and it's all about preventing the masses rushing to National Parks. And yet that issue exists for surfing/ bodyboarding etc too, only they've managed it more successfully. Likewise MTB.

Secondly the initial ban on surfing was met with significant opposition right from the start - not the case in climbing. I tried to have this discussion weeks back - around the Curbar drone shaming - and was largely shouted down by peple assuming I didn't grasp the basics. I suspect that surfing culture retains much more of a independent/ rebel streak than climbing nowadays.

A third point - only discovered this today - our CEO is at his place in Wales for lockdown. Along with the non-furloughed access officer Elfyn (Cath's role is more lobbying afaik) that's a significant part of the team in an environment where regulation, sentiment and enforcement seems markedly stronger than elsewhere.

This point about local hillwalking and climbing being fine needs to be made soon as part of a broader statement about genuine risk. If the Government want to draw some arbitrary lines and enforce them that's up to them - but I see little prospect of it and we shouldn't be assuming it will happen and to our detriment. Remember this government remains very right-wing and their supporters will not tolerate them eroding individual freedoms unnecessarily.

Good news to finish - I've been invited to join an ongoing series of BMC video conferences to discuss direction and action, as has Ru I believe. I'll be remaining engaged on here but happy to take PMs with any specifics.