[shark]

On the pull-up theme - what’s the current consensus re Bachar ladders? Are they outdated and injury-inducing relics of an ancient civilisation? It struck me that, together with a fingerboard they could be quite useful for slightly more climbing specific strength exercises...

Strung my old one up in the garden and had a play this morning. I’m certainly wary and only use it to do one or two moves at a time. Anecdotally a lot of the damage was from coming back down when tired with bad form.

[Sidehaas]

What do people think about rest times between repeater sets?

If I only rest a couple of minutes between sets as per the lattice advice I struggle to complete the routine and also tend to tweak a tendon fairly regularly. On the other hand if I rest twice as long then I can finish the routine and not do myself damage. Am I reducing the training benefit by resting too much? I could of course take off some weight instead, but I'd have to go quite a long way below the recommended (lattice) %max in order to be able to finish.

I'm doing 7on/3off at just over 70% of my max hang weight and the aim is to get better at longer boulders again as I've lost the ability to climb hard for more than a couple of moves.
Thanks, great thread for some good advice and a bit of a laugh:)

[tomtom]

I have 3 min rest. 2 never seemed long enough for me.

[nai]

I think they classify it as AnCap don't they?  AnCap rests are generally 2-4 times work time so at 2 minutes that would be the lower end of that.  So you could lengthen the rest times to start with and bring them back down or increase the intensity as you improve.

FWIW, I recently completed an Andesron hangs block and rested 3 minutes between the 7 rep and 6 rep sets then took 5 minutes before changing grip.  That was at Alex's suggestion and seemed to work ok.

[Sidehaas]

Thanks guys

[Rob F]

My, this thread is getting long.

30 pull-ups is a mere warm up for the Leeds Crew (6 min 30 sec)...

[Rob F]

One of the other training forums I sometimes look at has a leaderboard where users can upload PB's for various standard lifts. Would be fun to do something like that on here whilst we're all cocooned away: max pull-ups, 20 mm edge hang time, one arm lock off time, 1 RM deadlifts etc etc...

[Rob F]

This is what I mean I case it not obvious...

https://www.sugdenbarbell.co.uk/pbchart

[IanP]

My, this thread is getting long.

30 pull-ups is a mere warm up for the Leeds Crew (6 min 30 sec)...

Given the maximum pull-ups that an olympic gymnast achieved was 40, and that was without strict form, 30 pull ups looks pretty hard!  And those guys looked proper strong 

[Sasquatch]

Cast off any ideas about there being two types of fingerboarding that do two different things and view the varieties of protocols on a spectrum of strength and strength endurance with variation in intensity and time under tension.

This was stated a ways back and is key. 

There is value in doing 90-95% max work(i.e. 5-10 second single rep max hangs), and there is value in doing 70-80% max work(i.e some version of 7/3 or 6/4 style repeaters).  It's all about how you structure it. 

However, there is a difference in isometric training and the research involved in isometric training as compared to full ROM training.  In my research (limited i'll grant), I've found that most isometric research seems to increase time under tension (TUT) by extending work time rather than adding reps.  So to get 40 seconds of TUT you would simply hang for 40 seconds straight.  This is substantially different than a repeater (a 6 x 7on/3off repeater is 42 seconds of TUT).  If you're wondering try both.

Has anyone on here found research showing a reason to do reps of an isometric?  I haven't.  That's why I don't do repeaters any more.  I do a variety of shortened rest cycles(20second at 80%, 40second rest x 5), but nothing like a 7/3 repeater.   I just don't think a 7/3 or 6/4 has more value. 

[Nibile]

My, this thread is getting long.

30 pull-ups is a mere warm up for the Leeds Crew (6 min 30 sec)...

Given the maximum pull-ups that an olympic gymnast achieved was 40, and that was without strict form, 30 pull ups looks pretty hard!  And those guys clooked proper strong 

Gymnasts don't train for max reps, so that number is just due to their absurd level of strength.
40 is hard but achievable by anyone with dedication and patience. I could do 40 and I seem to recall once doing 44. I could only do one one armer. That was 1996 I think.

[gme]

Thanks Nibile as usual someone to rely on re strength facts.

I have never tried to do 30 nor am I suggesting I could, I just didn’t think it sounded too much for and elite athlete to be able to do it. Like you I suspect the gymnasts just did it off the couch.

[IanP]

Thanks Nibile as usual someone to rely on re strength facts.

I have never tried to do 30 nor am I suggesting I could, I just didn’t think it sounded too much for and elite athlete to be able to do it. Like you I suspect the gymnasts just did it off the couch.

I'm sure its possible with training, but those guys are definitely elite athletes and didn't make it look easy so guess the question is whether it is useful strength benchmark for high level climbers.

[dunnyg]

I get the feeling those guys have never seen a couch, let alone been on one.

[Duma]

And still they were all kipping like fuck before they got to 30

[Rob F]

Nibs good effort with the 44 pull-ups. Couldn't have the gymnasts win over climbers. That would be totally embarrassing!

In theory it should be possible to reverse engineer a Prilepin Table to work out what 1RM is needed for a given number of body weight pull-ups. I'd say that 40 would correspond to somewhere around double body weight 1RM. Nibs - have you done 1RM testing?

About 4 years ago I was more into the weights and did a +80kg 1RM pullup (at a body weight of around 85kg. Rather annoyingly max body weight pull-ups fizzled at 28 reps on more than one occasion (which I think in part was psychological as well as physical). My aim at that point was 30.

Having said this managing 20 body weight should be more than enough for most purposes and once people can achieve this then they should focus energies elsewhere.

[gme]

Thanks Nibile as usual someone to rely on re strength facts.

I have never tried to do 30 nor am I suggesting I could, I just didn’t think it sounded too much for and elite athlete to be able to do it. Like you I suspect the gymnasts just did it off the couch.

I'm sure its possible with training, but those guys are definitely elite athletes and didn't make it look easy so guess the question is whether it is useful strength benchmark for high level climbers.

That’s a different question though. This was about wether steve maish targets were realistic.

[Nibile]

Nibs - have you done 1RM testing?

Cheers! I was young though.
No, I've never tested 1RM pull ups, but I could do one front on one armer. Then I completely forgot about pull ups for ages. A few years ago I reached my peak on one armers, but twisting. At the time I was probably around 30 pull ups. I remember doing 26 on a medium campus rung at the end of a long bouldering session with Monolith and Crouch.

[Rob F]

That’s a different question though. This was about wether steve maish targets were realistic.

Ah sorry I hadn't read the thread in depth. Like you say these are not big numbers for regular gym persons.

There's a couple of things:

1/ These metrics are not very climbing specific, they are basically things that people can do in a standard gym

2/ I would say that this kind of strength would be what would be seen in muscular / chunky boulderers operating in the Font 7's. I don't think these standards would be any good for those ectomorph body types operating in Grade 8 bouldering or high end sport. Look at the difference in body types between time trial / indoor circuit cyclists and king of the mountain guys. Another topic but I'd say you can get away with a bit too much unnecessary muscle for bouldering but when high level sport climbing there's no where to hide, you have to get the weight down as much as is safely possible.

3/ Climbing is a body weight sport (+ a harness and a few quickdraws). Principle of specificity of training (and testing) is always key. Correct me if I'm wrong but Shark isn't going to bang out a 3 minute plank half way up his successful ascent of the Oak...

[jwi]

That’s a different question though. This was about wether steve maish targets were realistic.

Come on, they are fucking bonkers.

Even I am full strength on the fingers test, or near it.

Why would a climber stop training fingers and get their dead lift up to >2 bw. Utter madness

[Nibile]

Principle of specificity of training (and testing) is always key. Correct me if I'm wrong but Shark isn't going to bang out a 3 minute plank half way up his successful ascent of the Oak...

This is indeed correct.
Specificity is indeed crucial.
But.
The most specific way to assess if one has the potential to climb a route, is to try the route.
And the most specific way to train for a specific route is to train on the route.
This is what many people, with lots of spare time, do.
Other people, though, can't, and therefore they need references and measurable quantities. So, to climb a certain route, the climber could need a level of body thension that, switched to other measurable tasks, could be equal to a three minute plank or to a 2BW DL, or to X one armers, or to X hang on a Lattice Edge.
As it's been said before, it's a matter of potential, and it's not predictive.

What should one do if references lack (like in most cases)?
It's very simple: just keep training. When one fulfills or nearly fulfills his potential on a certain single field of the overall performance (body tension, fingers, pulling power, etc.) they know that failure is due to other factors (technique, mindset, conditions, etc.), so they can move on and assess, or try to, those factors. It's a very simple trial and error process, in an era in which few people want the trial and no one wants the error.

No offense meant people, but I think this whole thread is paradigmatic: for a "lockdown fingerboarding program" there's no real need to get lost in the minutiae. Even a couple of months are nothing compared to a long term training plan, especially if one hasn't put the hours in before. Two months of serious fingerboarding will be lost in almost the same amount of time if one simply sacks it and just goes climbing afterwards.
At the same time, for a fingerboarding novice, nearly everything will work: maybe it will not be the best possible result, but it will give results. Then, if one decides to keep at it, after some time it will be useful to gather more info, and after some more time it will become crucial to gather other info to raise the bar.

So, I understand that people want as many info as possible, and I appreciate the amount of info that this topic gathered, but I personally think that they could be overkill, for the specific lockdown duration planning; maybe, once this nightmare will be over, this topic will serve as a mini encyclopedia of fingerboardin advice.
I also understand that this post is due to my actual vision of climbing and training, which I'm sure is extremely peculiar, to say the least...

[Rob F]

Very true re: making things specific for an outdoor project. I was looking at a utube clip of a slowish climber doing something at malham on the catwalk the other day. It fit the 7:3 protocol almost perfectly (x 25 reps).

I don't know if people aware that Thor is going to try to beat Eddie Halls deadlift record in a couple weeks (501 kg). Due to shutdown this is to be done in Thor's home gym. There is quite a lot of opinion within the strongman world that this record is meaningless and is not to be accepted / only a lift in an official competition should count...

[shark]

That’s a different question though. This was about wether steve maish targets were realistic.

Come on, they are fucking bonkers.

Even I am full strength on the fingers test, or near it.

Why would a climber stop training fingers and get their dead lift up to >2 bw. Utter madness

To be fair he didn’t advocate stopping all finger training or at least I didn’t read it that way.

His general point was compromising a bit in terms of training time usage and recovery to address areas where you are weak and whilst that weakness might be  peripheral it may be such a shortcoming that it holds back in your climbing performance.

I think in general the point is a fair one and shouldn’t be lost even if the benchmark exercises and levels he chose to pick are open to criticism.

That point though is skewed to be good all round which might not be the preferred approach. The proverbial crimp waif may want to stayed focussed as a specialist on their bleeding edge problems rather than gaining muscle and therefore weight through deadlifting even if it improves their poor performance on burly undercuts and roofs and makes them more resistant to injury. Even this back-fired badly for Katy Whittaker when she put her back out badly learning to deadlift.

Anyway IMO if you want to specifically improve your posterior chain for lever moves or standing up on undercut on a route (or even in my case sorting out long-standing lower back problems that meant my back would go when I did lots of training) then deadlifting might be a good exercise which in reality doesn’t particularly get in the way of finger training in terms of recovery assuming you have the time to do both.

I took the view that getting to twice bodyweight was enough for what I needed and any more harder won gains would be largely for its own sake.

[tomtom]

Good post Lore.

I’d be interested in how long people think their training plan was going to last? (You mentioned 2 months).

For me it’s 6 months min. Could well be a year. That’s what I’m planning... hence a gentle start focusing on form - to try and build a base before ramping stuff up in the summer.

[shark]

Very true re: making things specific for an outdoor project. I was looking at a utube clip of a slowish climber doing something at malham on the catwalk the other day. It fit the 7:3 protocol almost perfectly (x 25 reps).

Haha. If only it was just the fingers that were letting me down.