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Lockdown fingerboarding advice (Read 32388 times)

HarryBD

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#100 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 11, 2020, 06:31:01 pm
Thanks for the advice people. Shark I just tried the one arm with feet FIRMLY planted on the floor and found it way more stable (no wobbling) and found I could actually pull hard in a drag without shiteing myself that I’d ping off one hand. Think this way is way more compatible with my FB setup than trying to actually hang so cheers for the beta  :2thumbsup:

Davo

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#101 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 11, 2020, 06:54:37 pm


P.s. Davo - you're not actually training to hang off an edge, you're training BY hanging off and edge to be good at rock climbing. What you can hang for 10s might be a good test of max finger strength, but the test is not the only thing you do to improve at the test. 200m runners don't just run 200m races, they do other shit too

Thanks for the response. I think sometimes the internet is a great way to constantly misinterpret what someone says.

Basically I agree with most of what you have said and I thought it went without saying that we are training for climbing by hanging off an edge rather than training to hang off an edge. I completely agree that if you only have access to a finger board (rather than an actual board as well) then it would be madness to just do maximal hangs, I also agree that sprinters and weight lifters do lots of other types of lifting and sprinting rather than just maximal lifting or sprinting.

However my feeling here is that they do this to allow their body structures such as ligaments, tendons, muscles etc to adapt and become more resilient and able to tolerate more training etc Just doing maximal work clearly would not allow anyone to adapt to their sport well.

In terms of climbing I personally have a board and do quite a varied bit of training as I think that just doing maximal hangs or maximal bouldering would likely lead to a plateau and most likely injury and also just not be very good for actually being able to climb more than 3 moves in a row.

However, in terms of actually increasing finger strength (rather than just enabling your body to slowly make adaptations to structures such as your ligaments, allowing you to tolerate more training and also do more moves in a row) I am sceptical of the ability of standard 7secs on and 3 off repeaters to increase actual maximal finger strength. These seem very unlikely to increase your actual maximal strength. However more maximal style repeaters as you describe I agree would work.

Cheers Dave

reeve

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#102 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 11, 2020, 07:21:00 pm
Yeah exactly, for me I’m probably at around 80% of what would cause failure in one or two sets working up to being able to reliably do 5 sets of a given grip before adding weight.

Thanks again for the reply. And whilst we're here, how many grips would you typically do? I'm wondering if I'm generally not doing enough volume of them, particularly as it sounds like you increase the difficulty by increasing the volume, whereas I'm trying it by increasing the intensity.

abarro81

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#103 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 11, 2020, 07:27:20 pm
Reeve - I'm undecided about whether it's best to master a weight or not, but I normally start a cycle by deliberately undercooking the weights, giving myself a bit of a "run up" at my pbs rather than trying to go straight back to them. Not sure why, but this seems to have worked best for me.. I'm doing 7-6-5 hangs at the mo, I've tried 6-5 in the past to make it more stengthy, but I think I actually do better and make more gains with the longer version. Do 4-6 grips usually, depending on where it sits in my week and what else I'm doing etc.

Davo - adaptations to structures like ligaments and tendons are a big part of what we want surely! And muscles are likely to respond well to longer stimulus too - hence why you might do 8 reps of bicep curls not just 1, even if your goal is to do 1 rep max and you don't care about injury. Which isn't actually our real goal on most boulders anyway. If you're doing long stuff on the board I wouldn't worry too much though.

Science - I doubt it has the answers. Last time I looked (quite a few years back now) I couldn't find a decent conclusion in the literature for optimum length of time for isometric contractions for strength gains. The results were v scattered and conflicting. I think I've seen stuff about tendons adapting above 70% MVC but can't remember where. I'm not sure if people understand adaptations well enough to know what the best stimulus is (be interested to know if others know better on this? The bfr experts (not climbers) seemed slightly unsure in some podcasts about whether it was load only or metabolic too) but if it's mechanical load I would expect I can produce more load in a session @ 85% than 99% due to higher volume. Plus getting the metabolic benefits for long boulders/cruxes. I imagine the science behind adaptions for increasing strength via repeaters includes some mechanical load (like lifting v heavy weights) and some metabolic (like bfr)

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#104 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 11, 2020, 08:01:21 pm
Thanks again for the reply. And whilst we're here, how many grips would you typically do? I'm wondering if I'm generally not doing enough volume of them, particularly as it sounds like you increase the difficulty by increasing the volume, whereas I'm trying it by increasing the intensity.

I generally do a relatively short session, at the moment only doing half crimp and pinch, 4-6 sets of each dependant on how I’m feeling. Once I feel like I’m in the repeater groove (maybe 4th session) I’ll usually drop the sets back down and increase the intensity.

carlisle slapper

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#105 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 11, 2020, 08:57:19 pm
 :popcorn:

 :great: barrows :great: stubbs

I've got opinions a plenty on all this but it'll take a while to write it down long enough to be accurate but short enough not to be boring AF. Basically, look at what, Shaw, Licis, Hafthor do and copy their loading cycles and styles but eat alot less and dodge the anabolics (unless you're russian) You'll hardly ever see them lifting to max. The road to 501 for Hafthor isnt just him swanning down the gym and trying to rag 481 off the floor, having a rest for a bit trying it again a few times, calling it good and doing that till the numbers go up. Also the advice for beginner, intermediate and experienced climbers should all be different. Theres barely a bloody normal edge on hard boulders above 8A in this country and 20mm is a massive jug if its flat, Where as at the 7B+-7C area those type of edges are much more common in and around crux moves (A reason why places like the bowderstone ladderface excels at making 7B-8A climbs) Different elemants of hand and wrist strength become more important as you move up the grades and training should reflect that, bent pinky crimp strength is likely to be a minor factor until you get into the 8A+ area (as climbers will likely have bigger flaws stopping them progressing) Im not a scientist (actually i do have a dusty BSC) Shark so i dont have a study into individual finger strength distribution but it is surprisingly variable. i can tell you some general anecdotal trends...The middle finger is always the strongest. Older climbers tend to have a stronger index due to >outdoor climbing and crap back two. The younger generations tend to develop stonger back 2 as indoor holds all bias towards pinky down compression and pinchable holds (which bias the back two) Climbers with a stronger trad/sport background tend to favour crimps and rarely drag. younger climbers drag more by instinct

Dont underestimate how important the wrist and carpal tunnel are either in fingerboarding (anyone whose ever had problems with it will know how weak it can make you) If you spread your crimps wider than shoulder width you'll always bias the index if they're flat. One arm hangs tend to target the pinky as unless you're in the top 1% in the world its gonna be straight on that edge and therefore able to take alot more load (even on 6mm edges this technique is possible), however it doesnt translate nearly aswell as a bent pinky as you cant bloody move anywhere off a straight pinky without it bending, same goes for chisel grip. unless you're compressing at full span.

Be aware of training power to compensate for mental weakness and wanting to overpower cruxes, you can often make much better progress by looking at other areas of your climbing (particularly antagonists, sequeance detail and mental approach), however in the current situation this is far harder to do for most!

Will hang in front of the bloody board, unless you have the ability to ghost your body inside the rock when you're climbing.(the exception here being if all your projects had you failing on cruxes busting out to a lip) Specifics are key, otherwise we may as well all go butterfly swimming and arm wrestling to improve.

Will Hunt

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#106 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 11, 2020, 10:51:00 pm
Yes, Sensei  :bow:

shark

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#107 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 11, 2020, 10:53:59 pm
The efficacy of repeaters still makes no sensei to me

Coops_13

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#108 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 12, 2020, 06:33:28 am
why not the BM app? You can create and save custom workouts which seem to work for me

Mostly because i bought it on an old iphone and am too tight to buy it on android too!
is it not free?!?

Edit: seems not, bugger. Don’t remember paying for it...

remus

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#109 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 12, 2020, 07:44:37 am
The efficacy of repeaters still makes no sensei to me

In the end understanding how or why something works is secondary to if it works. My suspicion is that, for most people, consistently doing a reasonable volume (3-5 sessions per week) of high-ish intensity (80-90% of max) fingerboarding is more important than the details of the protocol.

Liamhutch89

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#110 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 12, 2020, 09:21:52 am
I'm training for planche (gymnastic move) and from what I've read, current thinking seems to be that splitting your strength training between isometrics and dynamic movement (with a concentric and eccentric phase) is superior than isometrics alone despite the reduced specificity.

I see no reason why the same wouldn't hold true for strengthening the forearm flexor and therefore ability to hang a decent edge if programmed appropriately (whatever relevance this has to climbing, as has been discussed above). I'm going to experiment with finger curls using a 20mm 'no hang' type edge attached to weights and see what results I get. 1 rep = drag to crimp and back to drag. It seems a no brainer that this will at least be superior for hypertrophy, and whether it has any benefit to climbing will have to be seen. Thoughts?

tomtom

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#111 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 12, 2020, 09:36:05 am
Yes, Sensei  :bow:

Kiss arse / swot 😃

Thanks for taking the time to listen to our questions Dan - and more so - sorry the next 5 pages will be people deconstructing and re-interpreting them 😂

Apart from Shark who as usual will ignore all advice 🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️😃

abarro81

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#112 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 12, 2020, 10:19:11 am
Liam - the tricky things with the "turn to crimp" approach is that it can be very tweaky anywhere near max, so if you're at all prone to injury you can't go hard on it. I think it's likely to work best with BFR (blood flow restriction) if you have the kit for that, as it allows you to stay below the danger threshold

Simon - you might not understand it, but I explained two plausible reasons, and like Remus said, you don't need to understand it for it to work

Stu Littlefair

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#113 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 12, 2020, 11:36:42 am
Imagine how weak we’d all be if you did!

Paul B

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#114 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 12, 2020, 12:06:37 pm
So do you think everyone out there recommending repeaters (Varian, Andersons, Bechtel, Maisch, Lettuce, Horst(?) etc., etc.) is wrong Shark?

Maisch made some fairly poor assertions (trainingbeta.com interview) based on Eva Lopez's papers. He then doubled down on them when challenged, even when the author confirmed the assertions were unfounded.

I found this incredibly disconcerting at the time (~2015).

shark

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#115 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 12, 2020, 12:17:23 pm
The efficacy of repeaters still makes no sensei to me

In the end understanding how or why something works is secondary to if it works.

Not challenging that it ‘works’ but that it doesn’t work better than alternatives.

Quote
My suspicion is that, for most people, consistently doing a reasonable volume (3-5 sessions per week) of high-ish intensity (80-90% of max) fingerboarding is more important than the details of the protocol.

My suspicion is that less sessions a (no more than day on day off) max intensity hangs (different protocols available) produces better strength gains.

shark

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#116 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 12, 2020, 12:44:21 pm
Liam - the tricky things with the "turn to crimp" approach is that it can be very tweaky anywhere near max, so if you're at all prone to injury you can't go hard on it.

Second hand advice from Volker Schaffer was that this was to be avoided altogether as the repetitive see-saw action of the tendon under load will wear away the lateral binding stuff (usually called tendon as well - don’t know proper name) that holds the tendon in place
« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 12:51:44 pm by shark »

teestub

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#117 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 12, 2020, 01:34:04 pm

Maisch made some fairly poor assertions (trainingbeta.com interview) based on Eva Lopez's papers. He then doubled down on them when challenged, even when the author confirmed the assertions were unfounded.

I found this incredibly disconcerting at the time (~2015).

Assertions based on his experience and results training people or solely based of that small study which seems to have got so many people stuck on a specific protocol? Big difference between the two I guess. I really like his website (which appears to be no more, a shame) and his philosophy.

i.munro

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#118 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 12, 2020, 01:53:24 pm
Veering (not entirely) off-topic. I'm trying to build  a basic fingerboarding setup & have some real noob questions. All in the context that big DIY stores seem to be delivering but probably not any actual climbing shop.
Rather to my surprise in lock-down a pull up bar frame thingy has been delivered so I now have 2 horizontal metal bars the upper 2m10cm off the floor & the other  ~20cm lower.
My thinking is a chunk of plywood as a back board (would 15mm be enough ?) but then I need to attach it.
Ideally in such a way it can be removed to allow pull-ups.
Ant thoughts or suggestions welcome thanks. I'm thinking in terms of screwing a batten to the back to "hook" over the bar. Would pine be ok or would it split?

BenF

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#119 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 12, 2020, 02:38:11 pm
My thinking is a chunk of plywood as a back board (would 15mm be enough ?) but then I need to attach it.
Ideally in such a way it can be removed to allow pull-ups.
Ant thoughts or suggestions welcome thanks. I'm thinking in terms of screwing a batten to the back to "hook" over the bar. Would pine be ok or would it split?

I have a pull up bar that clips to the door frame using opposing forces. My fingerboard is attached to a piece of plywood that is wider than the doorway to stop it moving. I used bike hooks from B&Q, screwed into the plywood, which allow the board to hang from the pull up bar and be taken off easily. With careful positioning of the hooks, it was easy to ensure that the board does not move at all and stays locked in place.


Paul B

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#120 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 12, 2020, 02:53:07 pm
Assertions based on his experience and results training people or solely based of that small study which seems to have got so many people stuck on a specific protocol? Big difference between the two I guess. I really like his website (which appears to be no more, a shame) and his philosophy.

Assertions based on 'mining' the data presented basically ignoring that it compared MED followed by MAW and MAW followed by MED in favour of interpreting it as a direct comparison of MED vs. MAW (which didn't exist in the paper). This wasn't just done on the intial outcome from the two groups but on the entire dataset 'split' into four. He went on to suggest that someone using MAW rather than MED was following the "best available SCIENCE".

I'm not going to re-listen to the podcast but I'm sure you can find it if you're so inclined. I also have the email thread/replies.

I will add that the debate was amicable in both directions.

jwi

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#121 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 12, 2020, 03:18:18 pm
This guy?
https://web.archive.org/web/20170505105430/http://www.stevemaischtraining.com:80/the-economics-of-training.html

A crank, surely?

Almost any decent climber is full strength on the finger test, but not even Seb Bouin would pass the lifting tests. Should they all stop working fingers and start doing dead lifts? Because of "economics of training"? That's bat shit crazy, to put it politely.

Also, if you can do 30 strict BW pullups, you are Magnus Mitdbø—who readily admit that he wasted his time with strength exercises when he should have been climbing (it gave him a good second career though...)

i.munro

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#122 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 12, 2020, 03:29:34 pm
. I used bike hooks from B&Q, screwed into the plywood, which allow the board to hang from the pull up bar and be taken off easily. With careful positioning of the hooks, it was easy to ensure that the board does not move at all and stays locked in place.

Thanks I think I saw that one while trawling the net for ideas. However I don't think I can use it as i've got no doorframe just the 2 bars.

teestub

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#123 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 12, 2020, 03:36:47 pm
Yeah the weights section is obviously based on Beef fed Americans rather than malnourished euro crimp waifs!

gme

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#124 Re: Lockdown fingerboarding advice
April 12, 2020, 04:05:27 pm
I don’t agree at all with those comments re the weights. They all look pretty achievable and I suspect most properly strong climbers would benefit from doing them. None of them would be considered even vaguely hard for a lifter. My 16 year old could do all the adequate ones bar the pull ups and most of the full strong ones. 
30 pull ups at BW doesn’t sound hard with a bit of training.
The deadlift one is the only one that looks difficult.

 

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