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COVID-19 and the state of politics (Read 180521 times)

gollum

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COVID-19 and the state of politics
March 27, 2020, 04:22:12 pm
Not wishing to get into the rights and wrongs of Brexit or which party is in power and whether or not anyone else could be doing any better.

Last night watching QT it struck me that perhaps the political shenanigans of the last few years has lead to a position where the Cabinet simply does not have any real strength in depth with a wide range of schisms, leadership battles and culls leading to, perhaps, more experienced and, arguably, capable individuals being banished to the back benches.

tomtom

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#1 Re: COVID-19 and the state of politics
March 27, 2020, 04:49:03 pm
I thought Corbyns 'I told you so' sounding interview about Govt spending following their plans to spend spend spend rather distateful and rather reflects why he was such a bad leader.

Whether or not there is any truth in it - now is not the time.

Johnny Brown

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#2 Re: COVID-19 and the state of politics
March 27, 2020, 09:04:45 pm
Why is now not the time?

Somebody's Fool

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#3 Re: COVID-19 and the state of politics
March 27, 2020, 09:22:31 pm
Because we’re all waiting for someone with decent hair like Keir Starmer to say the exact same thing in two weeks time.

Then we can all agree with it.

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#4 Re: COVID-19 and the state of politics
March 27, 2020, 10:15:51 pm
I thought Corbyns 'I told you so' sounding interview about Govt spending following their plans to spend spend spend rather distateful and rather reflects why he was such a bad leader.

Whether or not there is any truth in it - now is not the time.

I totally agree with you Tom, it was an idiotic remark. He's totally failed to consider the difference between policies that become necessary in a massive crisis, and policy during relatively normal times. Some things were probably going to happen anyway (railways) but some of them weren't ever considered even in Corbyns wildest dreams (basically nationalising the entire economy). Saying he won the argument is plain foolish, he lead a once effective party to it's worst results in a century and a position of near irrelevance, along with bringing in a reputation for anti-Semitism. That doesn't constitute winning anything.

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#5 Re: COVID-19 and the state of politics
March 27, 2020, 10:21:48 pm
Though this was interesting : http://archive.is/fql4r

mrjonathanr

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#6 Re: COVID-19 and the state of politics
March 27, 2020, 10:38:50 pm
 There was only one argument, it was conducted in the ballot booth. The concept is idiotic, the rehashing, worse.

The images of PMQs where parliamentarians do not follow their own guidelines about social distancing are astonishing. I thought there were supposed to be aficionados of behavioural science in number 10?

It will spread through MPs.

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#7 Re: COVID-19 and the state of politics
March 27, 2020, 10:55:40 pm
The images of PMQs where parliamentarians do not follow their own guidelines about social distancing are astonishing. I thought there were supposed to be aficionados of behavioural science in number 10?

It will has spread through MPs.
Fixed. They just haven't been tested yet.

BrutusTheBear

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#8 Re: COVID-19 and the state of politics
March 28, 2020, 09:19:26 am
Because we’re all waiting for someone with decent hair like Keir Starmer to say the exact same thing in two weeks time.

Then we can all agree with it.
:lol:

TD & TT I Beg to differ. Whilst the light shines over everyone and the choices they make.  Now is exactly the time to reconsider our societal values, to challenge the greed and selfishness and to promote the generosity and kind spiritedness on display.

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#9 Re: COVID-19 and the state of politics
March 28, 2020, 09:36:27 am
Because we’re all waiting for someone with decent hair like Keir Starmer to say the exact same thing in two weeks time.

Then we can all agree with it.
:lol:

TD & TT I Beg to differ. Whilst the light shines over everyone and the choices they make.  Now is exactly the time to reconsider our societal values, to challenge the greed and selfishness and to promote the generosity and kind spiritedness on display.

Strategically?

Probably not a good time. Do all the reconsidering you want, take notes, polish arguments, but save it for the wash up.

At the moment, too much political protest, will simply seem opportunistic, annoying, crowing and posturing.
Nobody likes a whinging voice moaning and loudly proclaiming “told you so” whilst they are trying to deal with a difficult, emotional and demanding reality.

You risk simply occupying the role of Job’s comforter.

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#10 Re: COVID-19 and the state of politics
March 28, 2020, 09:53:54 am
Until this morning I was quite sympathetic to the "let's not be too political at the moment" point of view... But having watched this (hopefully the link works) I can't help but want to punch the Tory guy in the panel in the face. Plus those that voted for him.

https://www.facebook.com/228735667216/posts/10157600662352217/?sfnsn=scwspmo&extid=HIM03bE5T85AfbxS&d=n&vh=e

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#11 Re: COVID-19 and the state of politics
March 28, 2020, 10:14:09 am
Even in times of crisis it is politically important to challenge government detail that matters.  Especially so when lives are potentially at risk.  Doing so isn't 'Corbyn like petulant I told you so'.   Those posters complaining about a political slant to expressed concerns here on data, PPE and testing should think on the fact that in this QT clip this is now the Editor of the Lancet strongly criticising the public government position on PPE and tests. The situation the government faces, when the western world is racing to procure the same limited supply, is difficult, but they should be honest in this and apologise if they have a problem and, unlike the minister in that clip, shouldn't keep pretending it's about to be delivered.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2020, 10:21:17 am by Offwidth »

mrjonathanr

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#12 Re: COVID-19 and the state of politics
March 28, 2020, 10:49:13 am
To be fair Offwidth, he may not have delivered anything, but at least he won the argument ;)

Nigel

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#13 Re: COVID-19 and the state of politics
March 28, 2020, 11:34:34 am
Until this morning I was quite sympathetic to the "let's not be too political at the moment" point of view... But having watched this (hopefully the link works) I can't help but want to punch the Tory guy in the panel in the face. Plus those that voted for him.

https://www.facebook.com/228735667216/posts/10157600662352217/?sfnsn=scwspmo&extid=HIM03bE5T85AfbxS&d=n&vh=e

Quite. The Lancet editor Richard Horton is right, the lack of PPE is a scandal. The Tory response (was it Jenrick?) that they've moved so many million masks and many many many millions fewer glasses is, the obvious glaring and uncommented on discrepancy in numbers notwithstanding, both irrelevant and avoiding the question. The question was what problems do they see coming in advance, and what are their plans? This is a very perceptive question, as it highlights the lack of engaged brains in government both now and in the past.

I linked this in the other thread - here is why there are only 10% numbers of glasses to masks. Summary - cost:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/27/advice-on-protective-gear-for-nhs-staff-was-rejected-owing-to-cost?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

That is a political choice. The comment was that this was being treated as a military operation. Hmm? If so, why was there no strategic reserve of sufficient PPE already in place? The above link shows that any strategic reserve they would have stockpiled "in normal times" would be incomplete anyway. And its not a defence to say that they wouldn't know what sort of pandemic would happen - the link refers to a flu-like epidemic role-played a few years ago, and they did have fair warning for this specific event at least 6 weeks prior, from China. What measures were taken in late January? It looks like the civil service did their job of planning for a foreseeable extreme event, and were let down by the penny pinching execution. And I also struggle to credit a logistics problem - what happened to Operation Yellowhammer?

I don't see why we shouldn't "be too political at the moment". That's classic divide-and-rule. The government's role is first and foremost the well being of the people, and they are in charge of co-ordinating the response to this. Giving them a free pass because its a crisis doesn't really cut it when they are knowingly sending underequipped frontline workers into the firing line, some of whom will die as a result. Although I'll grant them, that is a classic play for a UK military operation.

As the saying goes, if you want to get there, I wouldn't be starting from here. Don't get me wrong I'm willing this to succeed as is everybody, but as OMM said let's not forget things once the wash up comes.


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#14 Re: COVID-19 and the state of politics
March 28, 2020, 11:42:19 am
Can I clarify, that I didn’t mean that these things should be ignored for the “common good”.
I meant, don’t start shouting from the roof tops (yet), people are too caught up and it won’t make a difference now.

Being written off as “Moaning Mirtles” is a classic Labour failing.


tomtom

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#15 Re: COVID-19 and the state of politics
March 28, 2020, 12:07:14 pm
I've no desire to let anyone off the hook once this is over - but as OMM explained - which was what I meant, now is not the time to make any political points out of this. For this Corbyn looked (to me at least) like a dick. Starmer would have too if he had said those things - but he didnt.

Its a bit like me and MrsTT being out with the lad on his scooter. He falls over and cuts himself quite badly, and instead of both going to his aid and dealing with the situation, we start arguing and having a full on domestic...

That said, I think the science and medical community is doing a pretty good job of keeping the government honest in their decision making... and whilst it looks an open and shut case that austerity and NHS cuts have left us poorly prepared - that doesnt help the shit show that is about to happen. Getting beds, ventilators, test kits etc.. etc.. etc.. is what matters, not whether they were there or not before. But the time to examine that will happen - and there will be many models from different nations to compare our response to. I don't think there will be anywhere to hide.

Returning to politics, I heard an interesting commentary - that there were several senior conservatives trying to get Boris to bring Starmer into the War Cabinet (like Churchill & Atlee in ww2). Not for any balance or sense of fairness - just so the ownership of the handling of this was shared between labour and conservative. So the blame is spread if you like.

Their concern was that this may end up like WW2 - where Churchill probably did a good job during the war (I'm not qualified to say he did or not! Historians please???) but afterwards people wanted wholesale changes and elected Labour. This may well be the case - if people get a taste for the CV-19 socialism that is happening across the UK right now - they may want it to continue.

Then again - the world may just simply revert back to rabid growth chasing capitalism...

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#16 Re: COVID-19 and the state of politics
March 28, 2020, 12:13:26 pm
Until this morning I was quite sympathetic to the "let's not be too political at the moment" point of view... But having watched this (hopefully the link works) I can't help but want to punch the Tory guy in the panel in the face. Plus those that voted for him.

https://www.facebook.com/228735667216/posts/10157600662352217/?sfnsn=scwspmo&extid=HIM03bE5T85AfbxS&d=n&vh=e
I have no idea on what the numbers are in the overall PPE debate, no idea on the numbers of items various sections of the health system have versus what they need versus what they perceive they need (and no idea if there is any difference), and no idea on what the evidence is for when/where PPE is essential versus when it's marginally useful versus when it isn't.
Instinctively I imagine there will be an ideal situation, a realistic situation, a distinctly sub-optimal situation, and an unacceptably dire system-wide shortage situation. I don't know which situation we are in, and I doubt do many at the coal face because there's just too much noise to tell. GPs on facebook are a canary in the mine but not the whole mining sector. That isn't meant to imply any shortage is acceptable.

Something that made me chuckle/roll eyes.. I'd just like to point out the obvious -
As someone who served in the infantry for 10 years and spent time on operational tours wearing my own personally purchased boots, socks, webbing, jacket, trousers, goretex, headtorch, cooking stove, canteen, navigation equipment, gloves, warm jacket, sleeping bag.. and other essential items because the military issue items weren't very good...
The invoking of the idea of this being a 'military operation' is unfortunately an entirely accurate analogy in the PPE discussion :)

Oh, and vehicles which didn't protect against bombs.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2020, 12:25:01 pm by petejh »

Nigel

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#17 Re: COVID-19 and the state of politics
March 28, 2020, 12:14:01 pm
Can I clarify, that I didn’t mean that these things should be ignored for the “common good”.
I meant, don’t start shouting from the roof tops (yet), people are too caught up and it won’t make a difference now.

Being written off as “Moaning Mirtles” is a classic Labour failing.

I appreciate that you weren't saying to ignore these things! Sorry if that was implied.

I agree that "moaning" is a common stick with which to beat folk, and is best avoided. That said, posting on UKB for posterity when we all have time to kill probably doesn't fall into the roof top yelling category so I think it can safely continue without subverting the government response. Although I appreciate it is tilting at windmills.

Some things do need to be shouted from the rooftops now though, and it is good to see NHS staff highlighting shortcomings and making their demands heard. That's not party political at the moment, quite rightly, but it will be after this is over.

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#18 Re: COVID-19 and the state of politics
March 28, 2020, 12:28:48 pm

Something that made me chuckle/roll eyes.. I'd just like to point out the obvious -
As someone who served in the infantry for 10 years and spent time on operational tours wearing my own personally purchased boots, socks, webbing, jacket, trousers, goretex, headtorch, cooking stove, canteen, navigation equipment, gloves, warm jacket, sleeping bag.. and other essential items because the military issue items weren't very good...
The invoking of the idea of this being a 'military operation' is unfortunately an entirely accurate analogy in the PPE discussion :)

Oh, and vehicles which didn't protect against bombs.

The vehicles point is the more pertinent one here as there was no alternative option with that. Where can front line staff go to purchase their own PPE kit?

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#21 Re: COVID-19 and the state of politics
March 28, 2020, 12:40:05 pm

Something that made me chuckle/roll eyes.. I'd just like to point out the obvious -
As someone who served in the infantry for 10 years and spent time on operational tours wearing my own personally purchased boots, socks, webbing, jacket, trousers, goretex, headtorch, cooking stove, canteen, navigation equipment, gloves, warm jacket, sleeping bag.. and other essential items because the military issue items weren't very good...
The invoking of the idea of this being a 'military operation' is unfortunately an entirely accurate analogy in the PPE discussion :)

Oh, and vehicles which didn't protect against bombs.

The vehicles point is the more pertinent one here as there was no alternative option with that. Where can front line staff go to purchase their own PPE kit?

Pretty sure that’s not what he meant.

Plus, we actually went out and bought kit, in advance, because even after a few weeks of basic it was clear the kit issued wasn’t Fit For Purpose (FFP, fit for piss-all).

Allyness saves lives.

(Worth a Google of that statement. way after my time, but I wish senior staff had been so honest in earlier times. From that, many improvements grew and, probably, many lives were saved).

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#22 Re: COVID-19 and the state of politics
March 28, 2020, 12:50:31 pm

Something that made me chuckle/roll eyes.. I'd just like to point out the obvious -
As someone who served in the infantry for 10 years and spent time on operational tours wearing my own personally purchased boots, socks, webbing, jacket, trousers, goretex, headtorch, cooking stove, canteen, navigation equipment, gloves, warm jacket, sleeping bag.. and other essential items because the military issue items weren't very good...
The invoking of the idea of this being a 'military operation' is unfortunately an entirely accurate analogy in the PPE discussion :)

Oh, and vehicles which didn't protect against bombs.

The vehicles point is the more pertinent one here as there was no alternative option with that. Where can front line staff go to purchase their own PPE kit?


Most hardware stores. Ebay. Amazon. Lots of places will screw you right now for a box of FFP3's, a flip-down visor, a paper oversuit and a box of nitrile gloves. This stuff isn't astronaut suits. As stated previously we still have 300 boxes in our warehouse, as will all other large contractors across the UK.

Should they need to? No.


And as I said, I suspect none of us, GPs included, actually know the situation system-wide. But when you have everyone - from caretakers of schools still open, to shop assistants, to GPs, to petrol station staff, to ICU staff - demanding an FFP3 because they perceive that it's 'essential' to their protection, then you're inevitably going to end up with a large number of scared and disappointed people.

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#23 Re: COVID-19 and the state of politics
March 28, 2020, 12:53:05 pm
Though this was interesting : http://archive.is/fql4r

Yes that was interesting. To summarize for those who haven't read the link - its a Tory minister saying that, effectively, they have lost the argument on public spending. I think the key takeaway line is this one:

"So, Conservatives are going to need to come up a radically different narrative that explains why massive spending is not always possible."

Key because it gives the game away - austerity was a narrative, not a necessity.


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#24 Re: COVID-19 and the state of politics
March 28, 2020, 12:53:40 pm
The BMA will be in a good position to see across the UK situation for doctors.

The editor of the Lancet was pretty scathing today:

 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/28/chaos-and-panic-lancet-editor-says-nhs-was-left-unprepared-for-covid-19

I hope the front line staff have plenty of  cash and the DIY stores lots of stock at the required standards as PPE is strictly single use for now.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/872745/Infection_prevention_and_control_guidance_for_pandemic_coronavirus.pdf
« Last Edit: March 28, 2020, 01:03:11 pm by Offwidth »

 

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