[old cheese]

Secondly - I’d assume this means the same level of social distancing as happens at paint shops as at supermarkets now - If not greater as they would be less busy. So - is this really any worse than going somewhere for a walk where there are lots of other people.

Third, judging by the amount of DIY, gardening, car polishing and general furtling going on around here (and as evidence on social media I look at) - I would say that to many people doing some DIY is as important to their mental health as going for a walk is for others... I don’t think we can apply the feelings of the members of a climbing forum to the general population on this.

You kinda countered your own point here. You make a statement that paint shops will be less busy (the queues for wilkos in matlock are longer than any other shop in Matlock have been for 2 weeks And as I live very close to it can assure you that is a fact) and then describe how many people are doing DIY in your local area. You can’t do work without having the kit. Are you saying that they didn’t shop for it in an actual shop? If so surely they would be busier than normal.

Or were you suggesting that all the people in your area actually had it all delivered? That’s a far fetched assumption.

Sounds like a weak agreement based on your own made up facts. Alternative truths maybe.

[tomtom]

The punter points for saying I made things up Old Cheese.

#10 had a load of paint and rollers delivered for their living room ceiling (last week)

#11 has had a bathroom suite delivered and is midway through doing their install themselves. Though they’ll have to wait to get their plastering done.

Next door had paint delivered (this weekend) and have stripped and painted their back yard walls (I wouldn’t have bothered but hey..).

Edit. Oh and #5 painted their back yard last week. Think they got the paint from tescos on a food run.

Ten occupied houses in our road.

[Ged]

Pirmin has set the benchmark

http://lizardclimbing.com/2020/04/15/the-almost-perfect-corona-climbing-day-panthera-11-9a-redpoint-and-corona-almost-as-well/

Wow, what a prick. And the route is called corona, is he for real? And he's wearing a mask?

If you need to justify it as much as he does in the write up, you definitely shouldn't be doing it.

[Footwork]

"but not to let pass great sending conditions is part of my job as a climber "

 

[Will Hunt]

If his job is to climb it then I say it's Ondra's job to flash it and downgrade it.

[petejh]

Oh dear.

''Hardly more than an hour at the crag 10km away from home with my wife''
Plus arranging for a photographer to come along to document his ascent?

Climbing in a mask?

Publicising nearly doing a new route (and calling it Corona)?

''but not to let pass great sending conditions is part of my job as a climber''

Pirmintroll.

[old cheese]

Apologies Tomtom for stating that you made things up. Especially with the very specific evidence that you presented about your immediate neighbours. I guess with this level of scientific scrutiny we can extrapolate that all people are doing the same and not visiting paint stores to make purchases.

These kind is assumptions do my head in. Like the people who, earlier in this thread ascertained that cycling was safer now due to there being less traffic on the road. I kinda get that to a certain extent but there is a very counter argument here. How many people drive a little quicker on roads that they think are quieter? Does that not increase the likelihood that there would be more dangers for cyclists? Especially those that are maybe a little rusty on the old steeds.

Don’t worry about the punter points. Not like they really matter is it? Interesting that you start your reply with a punter though. I might wad you in response. In teaching it’s all about rewards these days and not focussing on the negatives. I guess the rest of the world needs to catch up unless modern teaching is wrong...

[Ru]

Publicising nearly doing a new route (and calling it Corona)?

Not that this makes any better, but the route he was on (Corona) is a Markus Bock route from some years ago.

[mrjonathanr]

It still comes down to asking yourself the question of who do you want to be, and are you part of the problem or solution.

The NPCC and gov should stick that in the guidelines.

[Johnny Brown]

Why on earth might people in Sheffield (for example) feel they have to go to Curbar for a walk instead of near their houses??

Umm, well, for the same reason you get more (presumably) out of going to Curbar (during normal times obvs) than going to the wall or park. Add in the fact that its heaving in the parks and round here they are mostly very linear (narrow paths, narrow valleys) and you get huffed on by joggers and have to jump out of the way of cyclists plus gates etc. Whereas Burbage is a six minute drive, unlimited space, and yes I get better mental health benefits from a huge open space with grand vistas etc. I would respectfully suggest if your choice of a house/ career etc wasn't entirely dictated by access to that open space you may not understand its importance.

I've noticed a "creep" back toward average re pedestrians in town centres

Our road just never got that quiet. I'm think there are a lot of businesses that just carried on as they weren't explicitly told to stop. This is where the police should be busy imho.

What makes it more important for you to go out for a walk at Curbar than anyone else in that park JB?

I would respectfully suggest you should live somewhere more rural yourself if that’s an issue? :p

As I said, mental health requirements will differ. I'm staggered by the lack of empathy in this thread towards people for whom access to nature may be the only thing keeping them alive. Clearly if you don't have that need yourself it might be easy to pretend it doesn't exist, but perhaps try to imagine. Di you remember the mental health crisis? It hasn't gone away.

I'm not going over the arguments again. I'm not suggesting people travel or get close to each other.

I live in the closest house to Stanage I could afford. I can walk there and have. More rural would be nice but out of my budget, and no closer to the crag.

[Davo]

Completely agree with that. Access to and being in nature is a completely different level of satisfaction for me than simply going to the local park. Yes, that helps but the lockdown has made me aware of how much I personally gain and find helpful being in the outdoors. My own mental health is generally fine but I am certainly one of those people who finds themselves much happier, more sane and more generally healthy if they are able to get into the countryside regularly.

[Stu Littlefair]

I’d hope we all appreciate that.

Whilst we can spend endless hours debating different edge cases, to my mind things are simple. The purpose of the lockdown is to try and ensure you don’t meet anyone outside your household unless it’s absolutely essential.

So, if the thing you want to do increases the chance that you come into close contact with someone with whom you do not live, you should think long and hard about if you really have to do it.

If you really do, then fair enough, it’s legal and I’d hope you won’t get slagged for it.

[spidermonkey09]

Completely agree with that. Access to and being in nature is a completely different level of satisfaction for me than simply going to the local park. Yes, that helps but the lockdown has made me aware of how much I personally gain and find helpful being in the outdoors. My own mental health is generally fine but I am certainly one of those people who finds themselves much happier, more sane and more generally healthy if they are able to get into the countryside regularly.

This almost perfectly describes my position too. I suppose the question, really, is whether during times such as these, where extreme measures are required, should policy be formulated with the aim of maintaining access for that small "at risk" section of the population, with the ensuing risk of behaviour "creep" from those, like most posting here I suspect, who can live without the outdoors even though it makes them more irritable and generally less happy? Or should policy be formulated on what the majority can live with? I genuinely don't know the answer.

[Oldmanmatt]

Both Johnny and Davo make good points.

Neither of them, nor the stated goal/need involve climbing.

Pretty sure access to nature is the intention behind the clarification of the “driving to” guidance.

As for whether climbing or bouldering are acceptable, it doesn’t seem likely that the government will delineate between every possible sport or activity, so it’s going to come down to individual police force and officer’s interpretation in the first instance and then (if that level decides to bump it up) a magistrate.

Ultimately, you have to decide if you can argue successfully against a magistrate, in the light of the BMC position, which they will almost certainly use to inform their opinion.

 

[tomtom]

Here comes in the tension between science and policymaking (from the perspective of an often exasperated scientist).

Very crudely, the science says stay at home. Except for essentials (food and medicine)

Policy makers (politicians) then look at it and say - oh  - well thats going to be tough - is there a way we can package this - or weaken it a little so its more palatable... don't want to piss off the voters too much etc.. etc.. and so we have the fudge we have now.

The 'clarification' of the rules that came out yesterday to me just makes things even worse rather than clearer...

If you live close enough to crags/hills or out in the proverbial middle of no-where great. Really - good luck to you and enjoy the space you have. Enjoy what that affords you at this time -  I really don't get what the problem is if you're able to get out and use that space at the moment*!

*unless this is about not being able to climb again - isnt that kind of covered at length in the mostly agree but one or two don't sense?

[abarro81]

So, if the thing you want to do increases the chance that you come into close contact with someone with whom you do not live, you should think long and hard about if you really have to do it.

But I'd bet 95% of people don't really have to do anything, including walk/bike/run, to avoid them actually killing themselves. You could even smash out a fast for a few days at the end of every resupply. Over the course of a few restocks there's a trip to the shops avoided or a delivery slot saved for the elderly. So I don't think the "have to do it" is a sensible way to put it, nor do I think it's how the vast majority of people are approaching it. Then you're left with, "have to do it in order to XX", which is where we've always been at - does XX = "maintain a reasonable quality of life"? "Avoid going a bit nuts"? How much is a bit? "Avoid being in such a shitty mood that your relationships break down"?  etc. etc. Actually, thinking about it, you've always got the "in order to.." part, even if you decide that XX = "avoid dying", you still need to define XX for it to work, otherwise you leave everyone up to defining it themselves, which is why I've wasted 40 pages of ukb's worth of my life on this thread

If you live close enough to crags/hills or out in the proverbial middle of no-where great. Really - good luck to you and enjoy the space you have. Enjoy what that affords you at this time - and I really don't get your beef if you're able to get out and use that space!

I suspect the beef was that you appeared to be giving people shit for thinking about doing that.

[Will Hunt]

What Barrows said.

So, if the thing you want to do increases the chance that you come into close contact with someone with whom you do not live, you should think long and hard about if you really have to do it.

I'm not trying to have a go or accuse you of being a hypocrite, Stu, but I just want to examine this. Does his mean that you haven't been out for a walk/run/cycle/whatever? Because as Barrows said, nobody really has to do these things.

[teestub]

Can we change to topic title to ‘Pedantry during Covid 19’

[abarro81]

Might as well change the title of the police guidance to the same whilst you're at it 

[Duma]

The guidance in the USA re restarting the economy is interesting, gyms reopening earlier in the process than I'd have expected.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/openingamerica/

[SA Chris]

"GYMS can remain open if they adhere to strict physical distancing and sanitation protocols"

Indeed, I don't see how this is possible to maintain, especially for climbing walls.

[Stu Littlefair]

What Barrows said.

So, if the thing you want to do increases the chance that you come into close contact with someone with whom you do not live, you should think long and hard about if you really have to do it.

I'm not trying to have a go or accuse you of being a hypocrite, Stu, but I just want to examine this. Does his mean that you haven't been out for a walk/run/cycle/whatever? Because as Barrows said, nobody really has to do these things.

The key point is "close contact". Close contact would mean being stood within two meters, or touching surfaces someone else has touched. I've been out for a few runs, a couple of bike rides, and to shop (as little as I can). Only the shop will bring me into close contact with others, but it's unavoidable. I haven't been out anywhere near as much as I'd like, certainly not every day, and usually when I start to get ratty.

The reason why I push a hard line is to try and get out this shit sooner. If we try and do as much as possible to limit transmission, we get down to a level of cases which is manageable by contract tracing and we can go back to something that looks like normal life. If we don't lockdown well and bump around a transmission value of R=1 we'll have large numbers of stable cases and we're fucked.

So my rule is still simple; if there's a chance - even a small one - that you'd have more contact than walking round someone at a wide berth. Don't do it unless you absolutely need to.

[Stu Littlefair]

So, if the thing you want to do increases the chance that you come into close contact with someone with whom you do not live, you should think long and hard about if you really have to do it.

But I'd bet 95% of people don't really have to do anything, including walk/bike/run, to avoid them actually killing themselves. You could even smash out a fast for a few days at the end of every resupply. Over the course of a few restocks there's a trip to the shops avoided or a delivery slot saved for the elderly.

The fast is a bit extreme, and only Dave Mac thinks it would be good for you, but basically you've just described the ideal behaviour from an epidemiology point of view. We should all strive to get as close to this as we can manage, and we'll get out of this sooner.

[Muenchener]

Re the Pirmin thing: yes he's made himself look a total prick in the way he has communicated his activities (Again. See also: whining when Ondra downgraded his route) But climbing locally with his wife on a quiet sector in the woods is perfectly ok under Bavarian lockdown rules & explicitly confirmed as such by the polizei.

I already mentioned this (in a fit of jealousy) further up the thread; here's the actual frankenjura.com link with the quote from the head of the local cop shop when explicitly asked about climbing:

Solange sich die Natursportler an die allgemeinen Regeln der Verordnung zur Ausgangsbeschränkung halten, sind von der Polizei Ebermannstadt keinerlei Beanstandungen zu erwarten.

... roughly

As long as people pursuing outdoor sport stick to the general rules of the lockdown declaration, then they don't need to worry about any objections from the Ebermannstadt police.

[Oldmanmatt]

"GYMS can remain open if they adhere to strict physical distancing and sanitation protocols"

Indeed, I don't see how this is possible to maintain, especially for climbing walls.

Possible?

Yes.

Practical, different story.

Before closing, we switched to spraying down, each evening, with hospital disinfectant.
Hand sanitizer everywhere and cloths and soray disinfectant for each piece of equipment in the training room.

Given falling zones, the distancing thing should be normal practice.

Masks? Uncomfortable, but why not?

The biggest problems come from reusing a problem/route/equipment  too quickly.

Even the best sprays recommended a 15 min contact time for disinfection.

Could you, for instance, spray down the problem you had just used, cone it off, chalk up time of cleaning and patiently wait for your next problem to dry/time out?

Nothing makes it foolproof.

Would you consent to a temperature check and health questionnaire on each entry?

Constant badgering to rewash your hands?

And don’t even get started on sweat issues...

Minimisation is possible, could you minimise it enough?

Don’t know.