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Climbing during CV-19 (Read 288214 times)

tomtom

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#1925 Re: Climbing during CV-19
January 24, 2021, 10:43:20 am

Patel has been very vocal this week about the problems with house parties, which do seem to be a problem, but she's been remarkably silent on the working practices in her own department, or the Foreign Office, or the DfT.


The people I know that work for the home office have been working from home since last March. The other government departments I know about (I regularly work for several) are all doing the same and have been told they will be at home for the foreseeable future.

Shapps is copping a load this morning as the Guardians Sunday scoop was the DVLA Swansea making people work when they should have been isolating etc...

(Soz not really relevant to the thread)

sdm

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#1926 Re: Climbing during CV-19
January 24, 2021, 11:03:45 am

Patel has been very vocal this week about the problems with house parties, which do seem to be a problem, but she's been remarkably silent on the working practices in her own department, or the Foreign Office, or the DfT.


The people I know that work for the home office have been working from home since last March. The other government departments I know about (I regularly work for several) are all doing the same and have been told they will be at home for the foreseeable future.

I think it varies a lot between teams. The people I know in the Home Office, Foreign Office and DfT are all back in the office for some or all of their time.

They were all full-time WFH during the spring and early summer. The only civil servant in my close circle who has remained full-time WFH works with DWP and DEFRA.

It is a similar story among my circle in the private sector.

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#1927 Re: Climbing during CV-19
January 24, 2021, 11:07:07 am
Surely the problem here is with the people travelling?

If they hadn't driven the police wouldn't have been contacted and the resources allocated.

I want to climb as much as the next person but going outside of your local area is not allowed and we need to deal with that for a bit.

To be clear I haven’t travelled for climbing but my opinion is that it should be fine. It causes very minimal transmission risk and it is a nonsense that we can’t travel to climb. The issue here is that yet again the police allocate resources where they could have been better deployed elsewhere.

Ru

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#1928 Re: Climbing during CV-19
January 24, 2021, 02:22:23 pm
I think it varies a lot between teams.

To be fair, I only know the legal teams.

Bonjoy

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#1929 Re: Climbing during CV-19
February 16, 2021, 05:08:29 pm
https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/police-respond-claims-ice-climbers-5004845

The statement made by Derbyshire police in this article following on from complaints about climbers on Kinder Downfall, is interesting.
Quote
"Without knowing the exact circumstances – if the people were in a group, were in pairs climbing or were from the same household – then it is not possible to make a judgment about whether this was indeed a breach of legislation."

"There are no limits given in law to how far someone may travel for exercise, however, you are only allowed to exercise with one other person who is not in your household or bubble."




Fiend

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#1930 Re: Climbing during CV-19
February 16, 2021, 06:03:41 pm
It's interesting. And very sensible and non-provocative - it's worth including their refreshingly calm plea:

Quote
"Our continued advice to people is to follow the government guidance to stay as local as you can - whether for exercise or any other reason – in order to help limit the spread of the coronavirus."

But not nearly as fun as going to the original Derbyshire Times article linked from that one, and reading the ceaseless outpouring of morally indignant smugly sanctimonious incensed outrage that makes all the climbers' judgementalism and snitching on each other during the first lockdown look like a cat's fart.

SA Chris

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#1931 Re: Climbing during CV-19
February 16, 2021, 06:41:33 pm
Favourite comment;

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Where can I get a pair of covid breeches?

Fiend

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#1932 Re: Climbing during CV-19
February 16, 2021, 06:44:08 pm
Could just wear a facemask as a posing pouch....

tomtom

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#1933 Re: Climbing during CV-19
February 17, 2021, 11:40:50 am
Could just wear a facemask as a posing pouch....

Make sure your 'nose' isn't peeping out...

Will Hunt

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#1934 Re: Climbing during CV-19
February 21, 2021, 07:43:22 pm
Heard from a friend that the police were up at Almscliff (actually at the crag) moving people on.

A mate was climbing with one other person near Big Greeny. He says:
Quote
It seemed like they were asking everyone to go home who didn't live within walking distance. We both said we'd leave and we asked what they considered local (quite politely) and they said that if people didn't leave they would fine them anyway and leave it to individuals to challenge the fine in court.

Quote
It wasn't clear if it was the distance or the fact we'd driven there that bothered them. I was too scared of getting fined to ask that though.


This is pretty shocking in my view. The shaky legal case for not being "local" is one thing, but what really gets me is the refusal to clarify how they're enforcing the law and relying on intimidation in the form of a fine to stop people asking questions. This completely goes against the Engage, Explain, Encourage, Enforce approach recommended by the College of Policing.

Bradders

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#1935 Re: Climbing during CV-19
February 21, 2021, 07:50:34 pm
Un-fucking real.

abarro81

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#1936 Re: Climbing during CV-19
February 21, 2021, 07:53:45 pm
I guess filming these interactions is probably the best way - seems like plenty of times police have backed down after footage of them looking like a prick goes on the media

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#1937 Re: Climbing during CV-19
February 21, 2021, 08:34:55 pm
I doubt very much that you'd need to go to court to challenge an unlawful fine. Maybe they knew that but wanted to use the threat. Did anyone actually get fined?

My mate Chris used to regularly walk to Almscliff from Leeds. One day I met him at Burbage, he'd set off to walk to Scotland but got to Skipton and changed his mind and followed the pennine way down to the Peak instead. My impression is that the covid regs have been worded to allow for the fact that not everyone has the same needs, abilities or local resources.

Paul B

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#1938 Re: Climbing during CV-19
February 21, 2021, 08:52:56 pm
I doubt very much that you'd need to go to court to challenge an unlawful fine. Maybe they knew that but wanted to use the threat. Did anyone actually get fined?

You need to read up on fixed penalty notices. There's no appeal mechanism. They've been withdrawn by some Police Forces (do some scrolling on Adam Wagner's Twitter feed, it's explained on there).

Ru

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#1939 Re: Climbing during CV-19
February 21, 2021, 08:58:26 pm
I doubt very much that you'd need to go to court to challenge an unlawful fine.

Technically, you commit the offence and they offer you a fixed penalty to discharge it, which you have the option to accept. If you don't accept it (for instance, because you don't think you have committed an offence), you may get charged and summonsed to court. Not sure most people realise that and I don't know if the police explain it properly. There's no appeal process for a fixed penalty (presumbaly because technically you accept it), but some fixed penalites do get withdrawn. You could, I suppose, judicially review the decision to issue a penalty, but that would be longwinded and potentially expensive.

[edit for clarity]
« Last Edit: February 21, 2021, 11:23:33 pm by Ru »

remus

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#1940 Re: Climbing during CV-19
February 21, 2021, 09:11:08 pm
Some fixed penalites get withdrawn though.

Didn't Duma have a speeding FPN withdrawn after he challenged it by letter? Something to do with the popo issuing the fine because they (incorrectly) had his vehicle down as a van rather than a camper.

Seems like a risky route to go down for a covid FPN though given the lack of clarity in the legislation about what counts as local exercise.

Ru

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#1941 Re: Climbing during CV-19
February 21, 2021, 09:16:33 pm
Didn't Duma have a speeding FPN withdrawn after he challenged it by letter?

It's an informal process though.

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#1942 Re: Climbing during CV-19
February 22, 2021, 12:42:13 am
I doubt very much that you'd need to go to court to challenge an unlawful fine.

Technically, you commit the offence and they offer you a fixed penalty to discharge it, which you have the option to accept. If you don't accept it (for instance, because you don't think you have committed an offence), you may get charged and summonsed to court. Not sure most people realise that and I don't know if the police explain it properly. There's no appeal process for a fixed penalty (presumbaly because technically you accept it), but some fixed penalites do get withdrawn. You could, I suppose, judicially review the decision to issue a penalty, but that would be longwinded and potentially expensive.

[edit for clarity]

I can imagine how that would go. ‘Sorry officer I refute your order to desist from climbing and will take that up in court’ Followed by being dragged around in the cow pats under demon wall roof before being kicked in the groin and having ones skull cracked by a truncheon then flung off the top of the gypsy boulder. No doubt the grim crime scene in Leeds has been furloughed so the hired goons have little else to do but stop the spread of the Wirus at the windiest overrated hell hole in Yorkshire. TBF I’d be thanking them for moving me on.

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#1943 Re: Climbing during CV-19
February 22, 2021, 08:57:48 am
Trust whoever was involved at Almscliff has gone to the press.

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#1944 Re: Climbing during CV-19
February 22, 2021, 09:13:30 am
North Yorkshire Police have taken a very odd draconian position throughout, directed I assume by the PCC, although this feels like an “operational policing” issue and not her responsibility.

They are possibly in competition with Derbyshire.

Think you’d not be hassled if you took the short trip to Caley or Ilkley as WYP are likely too busy with actual policing to get involved in this type of showboating.

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#1945 Re: Climbing during CV-19
February 22, 2021, 09:17:27 am
Interesting that Derbyshire seem to have got back in their box after the farrago around the women being fined walking at the reservoir. Their comments on the Kinder Downfall story linked above were actually quite sensible which is a considerable change of tone.

Will Hunt

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#1946 Re: Climbing during CV-19
February 22, 2021, 09:19:55 am
Further to my above post I've heard more.

One climber was at DWR where, in all likelihood, there was a group of people climbing near to each other, even if not as part of one group. He was told to go home (Leeds). Some people who had driven from Manchester were issued fines. It's not clear whether this is because they were in a group or because they'd driven.

The police told a group at the Keel boulder that driving from Leeds was fine (regardless that they'd just told the Leeds residents under Big Greeny to move on or be fined).

So it seems the police's approach is based on whether they like the look of you.

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#1947 Re: Climbing during CV-19
February 22, 2021, 09:32:16 am
In future then, my tactic will be to try and sweet talk my way into remaining at the crag, lie about where I live if necessary, then if caught out and fined, run away before it's issued like we used to as kids and come back for the pad later. Sorted.

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#1948 Re: Climbing during CV-19
February 22, 2021, 09:45:11 am

So it seems the police's approach is based on whether they like the look of you.

Maybe this is the crag police we've always heard about, and they are sending people home if footwork looks shoddy or they are using dodgy beta.

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#1949 Re: Climbing during CV-19
February 22, 2021, 10:20:52 am
I was over by Dreamland when all this went down at DWR yesterday so heard a lot of the confrontation. There were probably about 15 people in the DWR-Crucifix area - presumably a number of different groups, including a couple of families. When the first cop arrived it was pretty confrontational - he was pointing at people saying 'you're not 2m apart' etc. They asked where people had driven from and said that those who had driven from Horsforth and Meanwood were not 'staying local'. but didn't challenge the bloke who said he'd come from Otley. They also then seemed to imply that the biggest issue was crossing the county border as they said 'isn't there somewhere in West Yorkshire you could climb?'. They seemed to get into an argument with some of the climbers about exercise - the first cop was saying something along the lines of 'I can't go the gym, so why is it okay for you to do this?'. At this point I bailed, so didn't hear the outcome. I passed a couple and a solo boulderer down at South Cave on the way out, and at least two of them had been given fines having been climbing in a household bubble (not sure where they travelled from). On the way out I could see the cops coming back down and speaking to a group at Underhand.

Not quite sure what their criteria was really - all seemed a bit contradictory and possibly deliberately unclear. I'd say they were more interested in giving out a few fines and creating a bit of a deterrent for people to come out, rather than actually attempting to explain what is 'reasonable' and what is not.

One of the more surreal crag experiences I've had.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 10:33:54 am by fuzzysheep01 »

 

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