[Fiend]

Like em or loathe em they're here to stay, because broadcasters and event sponsors will keep demanding them as backflipping between blobs is guaranteed to get more of the unwashed masses watching and clicking advertiser links than 4 x 4 minutes of 50 degree rat crimps.

If you've watched any bouldering competition or visited any bouldering wall with a competition set up in the last couple of years, you'll know what I mean. Jumps, double and triple and quadruple dynos, coordination moves, outfacing pirouettes, dynos into toe hooks, knee bars and fucking handstands no doubt.

The organisers seem to love them, whilst the old skool are rightly sceptical - it's hardly good training for the Cromlech / Kilnsey, is it... I was pretty sceptical myself, partly because I'm just as rubbish at them as 50' rat crimps, and partly because in my endless quest to become a better boulderer, they don't seem that relevant. But I'm warming to them a bit, even though I find them sometimes a bit repetitive/homogenous in comp streams. A few thoughts:

- Is this what the Dawes wanted from indoor climbing 30+ years ago? If IFSC had been around then would he have been a world class comp climber on his jumping / smearing / blob-molesting skills?

- I've found some of the style to be good mental / comfort zone training. Stuff that I get on thinking "this is complete bollox, not my style, can't do this" (even though the relative difficulty is low) and then get a bit closer and get sucked into as part of expanding my mind / broadening my repertoire / being less put off by unsuitability. Will that annoying black in the corner of the Depot comp wall from a few months back where you had jump leftwards to catch a jug and ledge get me up Super Duper Dupont? No. Will the exercise of stretching my neurons a bit help a tiny fraction next time I'm faced with an uncomfortable and improbable move? Maybe.

- Fun. Yes, it can happen. Sometimes even frivolity along with it.

Thoughts??

[SA Chris]

I'd say change your password before Dan posts anything else under your name.

Have you listened to the Eddie Fowkes Jamcrack, his observations about them are interesting.

[Fiend]

No I don't do jam cracks for some reason, just never got into podcasts. I listened to Ned's one and that was it. I might check Eddie's out if/when IFSC / Tokyo rolls around.

I'm not responding to your first insult, that is really obnoxious 

[tomtom]

As long as they are firmly in the minority at climbing walls - my giveafuckometer registers zero.

I do take the same (fuck you parkour shite I did it my way) attitude you do - and gain great satisfaction in doing them in a non parkour style. Which usually involves for me lank and for you some horrendous knee utilisation scuffling.

[Paul B]

It depends what size your local wall is and their setting policy. When approximately a third above a certain grade turns very compy I lose interest and go elsewhere.

TBH I quite enjoy what the Depot Manc have on their comp wall (I'm not good at it and I think it must be terrifying to watch given my history) but there's the space to have all of that without interfering with circuits across the grade.

Paraphrasing somewhat I remember Percy suggesting previously that indoor climbing was doing a rubbish job of replicating outdoors and thus for comps there wasn't much point in trying (or that's how I remember it). All of this coordination stuff seems to be the continuation of that theme.

If Ondra doesn't win in Tokyo then something has gone wrong with the format/setting 

[nai]

Always dismissed them as pointless party gimmicks but tried a few when my daughter insisted at the Depot a while back and found I quite enjoyed them.
Lots of burl and tension, compression, moving limbs in sync, lots of dynamic movement, using momentum, arresting momentum. Fun. Felt like the skills would definitely transfer to ceratin styles of outdoor climbing.

[Orrincoley]

Thought I'd add my 2 cents here as I've got a weird interest in different types of climbing.
Put simply, I flipping love the jumpy, parkour, "comp" style climbs indoors and get bored of the basic climbing quite quickly usually.
Outdoors however, I love a basic crimpy bloc. So quite a contrast.

From a setting point of view, and I'm certain I don't speak for all setters, but I suspect a reasonable amount would agree with me in saying it is so much more satisfying to make a crazy concept for a "comp" style boulder work than a more traditional style indoor climb. While you can be very creative with a more traditional style of setting (I'm thinking a classic clockwork sequence, a good rose, etc) I don't find the experience of creating it as interesting, it doesn't push your brain in the same way.

That being said I think some setters can miss the mark when setting "comp" style in random circuits at a wall, because let's be real, a lot of setters these days do "comp" style climbs more or less for a living, so of course they're waaay better at it than an average wall user, or even the local crusher. In my eyes the trick is reducing the complexity so you can bring people to a higher level, so instead of setting some crazy paddle dyno into a toe hook catch, just use one part of it. Either the paddle dyno or the toe hook catch. People need to get used to it slowly, rather than just get thrown in at the deep end.

Also the joy of different centres is different setting, my local wall (which I am headsetter at) isn't a stranger to "comp" style, I set it a lot, my setters set them a lot. Is that all we have? No, but we certainly have more than the next nearest centre, which sets in a much more outdoorsy style.

I personally think this is great, if people aren't into what we set, they climb somewhere else and have a great time there. And those that enjoy what we create stay and enjoy it some more. Of course if all my customers told me to do one and set less of it I would, but so far all I get asked for is more of it 🤷‍♂️

[Fiend]

Good post Orrin, nice to hear from someone in the midst of it.

Also tomtom, that's something I'd forgotten about, that the massive volumes blobs and features can possibly need to more unplanned and varied sequences than traditional pulling on holds. I really like watching comp dudes and dudettes outwitted the authorised sequence.

Paul - alas the current set is for the team and all but possibly one look beyond me. If you weren't a bit injured i'd be keen to hear how you did.

[robertostallioni]

The current British Team training set on the Manc Depot comp wall will come down next Weds for resetting on Thursday. It'll be waaaay softer, with some that even Fiend may fall up.
Up for 2 weeks then stripped for Junior BBCs (which TomTom may lank) 
Then normally set again 2 weeks later.

[duncan]

Thought I'd add my 2 cents here as I've got a weird interest in different types of climbing.
Put simply, I flipping love the jumpy, parkour, "comp" style climbs indoors and get bored of the basic climbing quite quickly usually.
Outdoors however, I love a basic crimpy bloc. So quite a contrast.

From a setting point of view, and I'm certain I don't speak for all setters, but I suspect a reasonable amount would agree with me in saying it is so much more satisfying to make a crazy concept for a "comp" style boulder work than a more traditional style indoor climb. While you can be very creative with a more traditional style of setting (I'm thinking a classic clockwork sequence, a good rose, etc) I don't find the experience of creating it as interesting, it doesn't push your brain in the same way.

I can see the attraction of comp. style problems but not for me. I'm old and don't bounce. My usual wall has an increased proportion of comp. style setting of late. This seems as much for the entertainment of the setters as the clientelle, the person supposedly in charge of route setting is not around and the mice are playing whilst the cat is away. I've not renewed my annual membership.

[tomtom]

I’d like to contextualise my comments - I am generally uninspired by all wall problems...

[Wood FT]

Long live The Wave.

[spidermonkey09]

Also the joy of different centres is different setting, my local wall (which I am headsetter at) isn't a stranger to "comp" style, I set it a lot, my setters set them a lot. Is that all we have? No, but we certainly have more than the next nearest centre, which sets in a much more outdoorsy style.

I personally think this is great, if people aren't into what we set, they climb somewhere else and have a great time there. And those that enjoy what we create stay and enjoy it some more. Of course if all my customers told me to do one and set less of it I would, but so far all I get asked for is more of it 🤷‍♂️

Good post. As a customer of your wall I enjoy the setting on the whole but in a perfect world would have more basic crimpy stuff on overhanging walls, but then again there's always the board for that. I think your point about making the easier problems more appealing with a more graduated learning curve is a good one and on the whole is well carried out. What is a paddle dyno though?!

Interesting that your customers are psyched on the blob jumping style on the whole. What percentage of them do you reckon have climbed outside/climb outside regularly?

[steveri]

Interesting, reflective of indoor and outdoor drifting apart further? I'd hazard a guess >50% at my local wall are indoors only (newish wall, lots of 'catchment area' people new to the game).

Bearing down on hideous crimps is probably a bit risky injury wise for the wall and less fun. But I give the secret nod to the setter that puts more 'our kind of stuff' in. There's plenty there for everyone so happy to skip some of the more jumpy-volume stuff that would punish arthritic shoulders. Trying to push my comfort zone a bit though, as fiend says.

[SA Chris]

Our locak wall has such a small bouldering area that there isn't much room for too much throwing yourself about. There are usually one or two probs and I'll give them a token try, but usually they are too hard / risky for me.

[CJDavies]

I was in a city wall a couple of weeks back (first time chalked up for a long time).  It wasn't for me - I couldn't work out how to do anything, and not a crimp or front point on sight.  Just a load of 'shapes'.

I did wonder during the session - how many of the setters climb outside?  There was definitly a lack of 'flow or feel' to any of the lines - they just seemed like random excercises to me.  I am quite old school though.

[Paul B]

Long live The Wave.

Amen, although last time I visited Sheffield I found the setting underwhelming and a tad lanky 

Interesting that your customers are psyched on the blob jumping style on the whole. What percentage of them do you reckon have climbed outside/climb outside regularly?

I also wondered this.

From a setting point of view, and I'm certain I don't speak for all setters, but I suspect a reasonable amount would agree with me in saying it is so much more satisfying to make a crazy concept for a "comp" style boulder work than a more traditional style indoor climb. While you can be very creative with a more traditional style of setting (I'm thinking a classic clockwork sequence, a good rose, etc) I don't find the experience of creating it as interesting, it doesn't push your brain in the same way.

I work as an Engineer currently in a fairly specialist field. I absolutely love it when something comes through the door that makes me scratch my head severely, spend ages sketching on a white board and then finally find a novel way of solving the issue. I don't particularly enjoy the run of the mill calculations that I can pretty much do on a post-it note that come into the office regularly. I'm not sure the client in either scenario gives a  regarding my job satisfaction, they just need the output to be suitable and to a good quality after all, they're paying the bill.

Paul - alas the current set is for the team and all but possibly one look beyond me. If you weren't a bit injured i'd be keen to hear how you did.

The current British Team training set on the Manc Depot comp wall will come down next Weds for resetting on Thursday. It'll be waaaay softer, with some that even Fiend may fall up.
Up for 2 weeks then stripped for Junior BBCs (which TomTom may lank) 
Then normally set again 2 weeks later.

...and this is why I'm becoming increasingly fond of the Depot walls (the classic Pusher purchases really do help). Feedback seems to get through.

[Andy W]

Our locak wall has such a small bouldering area that there isn't much room for too much throwing yourself about. There are usually one or two probs and I'll give them a token try, but usually they are too hard / risky for me.

In terms of injury, anecdotally I use a bloc out wall in Montpelier( bloc out are a chain in France in think). Anyhow very modern full of blobs and jumps etc, I have never seen so many people wandering around rubbing elbows, my last session there I hurt mu bicep, squeezing a compression too hard. I also think when faced with a weird move on sight one is much more likely to injure something major, or at least that's how I feel with my old body! Where as hanging of a crimp on a board seems very easy to back off from and hence less injurious.

[Orrincoley]

Also the joy of different centres is different setting, my local wall (which I am headsetter at) isn't a stranger to "comp" style, I set it a lot, my setters set them a lot. Is that all we have? No, but we certainly have more than the next nearest centre, which sets in a much more outdoorsy style.

I personally think this is great, if people aren't into what we set, they climb somewhere else and have a great time there. And those that enjoy what we create stay and enjoy it some more. Of course if all my customers told me to do one and set less of it I would, but so far all I get asked for is more of it 🤷‍♂️

Good post. As a customer of your wall I enjoy the setting on the whole but in a perfect world would have more basic crimpy stuff on overhanging walls, but then again there's always the board for that. I think your point about making the easier problems more appealing with a more graduated learning curve is a good one and on the whole is well carried out. What is a paddle dyno though?!

Interesting that your customers are psyched on the blob jumping style on the whole. What percentage of them do you reckon have climbed outside/climb outside regularly?

That's good to know! Roughly that's my thought process, the board has plenty of crimps from finger friendly to heinously small one. So if you want them, there it is... That being said, a board isn't what everyone wants, so yeah maybe some more on the overhangs is the way to go, it's not too big of a deal to do as they take so little space.
Maybe setting feedback boxes are the way forward to get what everyone wants?... I know some walls have them, but certainly not every wall.

Paddle dyno is when you dyno catch a hold with one hand, get the same hold with the second hand then flick to a second hold with the first hand (1,2,3)

I'd hazard a guess that maybe 15% or less of our customers actually climb outside and i think that guess is on the generous side. Being a new wall in a city centre the vast majority of our customers started climbing with us, so the blobby style is almost the norm for them. Some obviously do get out, but I suspect they maybe get out a couple times a year tops!

[spidermonkey09]

I think the problem that walls often run into with harder crimpier problems in a wall setting rather than on a board is making them so they aren't heinously sharp/skin destroying or revolve around one desperate move that the setter probably campused! I think it would be very possible to make a really good V8 ish circuit using the wooden holds that the Depot uses for their v4 ish circuit which would tick this box. I do enjoy the board but my main concern using it in your wall is not crushing someone every time I fall off 

Yeah, feedback boxes or an online survey every few months advertised in the wall. Both pretty easy to do especially if you incentivise the survey by giving away a brush or something to a few people who complete it.

Wow, thats a low number. Probably quite representative across a lot of city based indoor walls though, especially as you move further south from the Peak etc.

[Ballsofcottonwool]

Having mild dyspraxia, co-ordination moves are my anti-style, as is anything involves flailing more than 1 limb at a time. But Variety is what makes climbing interesting so I accept its just one style of climbing that I'm always going to be shit at. Setting parkour style for every problem in a world cup final is failing to find the best all-rounder. Same for us punters indoors, I can live with 10% of problems being set in this style.

[Paul B]

I think the problem that walls often run into with harder crimpier problems in a wall setting rather than on a board is making them so they aren't heinously sharp/skin destroying or revolve around one desperate move that the setter probably campused!

Credit where credit is due, Boulder UK are generally very good at setting thin problems throughout the grades and their use of classic ('pre-worn') EP seems to be fairly kind to the skin.

[SamT]

and fucking handstands no doubt.

I think there's been a couple of handstand starts to problems at the CWIF before..

[AMorris]

I am one of the two main setters at my local wall in Aber, which is a converted squash cage (so v. small) with a bunch of horrible "rock feature" panels which are nigh on impossible to set on. We are limited by just about every factor imaginable regarding setting "comp style" problems, which invariably require a lot of horizontal and vertical space, and large volume holds. Pair this with the fact that myself and the other setter are outdoor focussed (north Wales, mostly), we tend to set quite powerful problems on small holds. Anyone who has had the misfortune of watching me flailing around on instagram will know that the main panel here is a 22 degree board full of minging edges and bad pinches.

With this in mind, when I go to a new centre, I make a beeline for comp style problems because it is something a bit novel to me and I am completely wank at them. If I wanted to grab a rat edge and lock it to my waist I can (or can't) do that at my local. I went up to Newcastle at the weekend and visited the Valley climbing centre for the first time since it opened, and have to say that I really enjoyed the comp style stuff that Chris Graham set. Got completely of course, but it's about as opposite a style to what I usually climb as is possible!

I can see why people don't like it, and I grumble about it quite often, but the kind of parkour "run, pirouette and launch for a massive jug before double tuck dismount and bow to the judges" style problem make up a small proportion of problems at most walls. They also tend to be very nice levellers amongst me and my friends (who are all shit at it), whereas a board style power problem will result in one person flashing it and Jerry's blowing every move, and everyone else flailing wildly on move 2.

[Will Hunt]

Provided that they don't take over the wall then I can't see the problem. They're a bit of fun aren't they. They don't really set many of these at all at the Pudsey Depot - not sure why? Possibly not enough space to have people flailing around safely.

I think the main problem I have with it is when they're used a lot in indoor climbing comps. If the purpose of the comp is to find out who the best climber is then blob-jumping has no real relation to Real Climbing - which is outdoor climbing. But I think the idea that indoor climbing comps are about finding out who is the best rock climber is long dead. Blob-jumping is a sport in its own right and indoor comps are about finding out who is the best at jumping between the blobs. So be it. It's not important anyway because it's indoor climbing.

[SA Chris]

For me they fall into 2 categories - the ones I can do (either properly or by beta busting) are brilliant. The ones I can't do are a load of shit.

[Nibile]

Fiend, your recent behaviour on this board had me thinking that someone had hacked your account, but since I am a particularly kind person, I didn't point it out.
In the case of this topic though, I was very close to the "punter" button, and only the extremely good mood given to me by my last fingers session kept me relaxed. That said, to pull you back onto the right path, I just want to let you know that you poll is lacking the two fundamental options "pink Anasazi" and "pain au chocolat".
The fact that no one pointed it out before me, only goes to show the decadence of this board in particular and of this world in general.

[SA Chris]

Nibs, my first post.

I'd say change your password before Dan posts anything else under your name.

[cheque]

not for me. I'm old and don't bounce.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat- can't boulder at all so low-percentage stuff where you'll fall off many times before you get the knack is way out of the question.

I actually feel like I'd really benefit from doing a bit of comp style stuff as I'm so undynamic and always have been. There's not much immediately obvious crossover from run and jump stuff but I think the chance to mix some of that in can't fail to help anyone as a climber so I'm definitely not in the "boo hiss, not proper climbing" camp but I wouldn't want to boulder regularly at a wall where more than a third were like this as Paul says. Wave/ board-style problems are another thing I feel like I really miss out on nowadays- also abstracted from reality but with a much more accepted crossover.

[Paul B]

I wouldn't want to boulder regularly at a wall where more than a third were like this as Paul says.

For clarity I was suggesting a ~third above a certain grade and I was including weirdness in this (so not just hop skip jump). If I went to a wall where a third total where hop skip and jump type problems I'd leave.

[Ru]

I've gone from hating to liking this style of problem, especially when there are easier problems set to learn the movements. Good post Orrin.

As a slight tangent, the posts about getting too old to repeatedly fall off are interesting. I have started to notice a disproportionate number of very active climbers aged from mid 30s upwards that are having serious hip problems/hip replacements. These are climbers that have spent 20 years+ bouldering indoors and outdoors above mats. Can't help but think that the current bouldering wall set ups of repeated 2-3m falls might prove to be pretty bad for hip joints long term.

[teestub]

They don't really set many of these at all at the Pudsey Depot - not sure why? Possibly not enough space to have people flailing around safely.

This entirely. I remember some time ago they decided a circuit of dyno problems would be a good idea and it was carnage.

I think the main problem I have with it is when they're used a lot in indoor climbing comps. If the purpose of the comp is to find out who the best climber is then blob-jumping has no real relation to Real Climbing - which is outdoor climbing. But I think the idea that indoor climbing comps are about finding out who is the best rock climber is long dead. Blob-jumping is a sport in its own right and indoor comps are about finding out who is the best at jumping between the blobs. So be it. It's not important anyway because it's indoor climbing.

The strange thing is that when these professional blob jumpers take a bit of time off and go on holiday for some rock climbing, it turns out they're as good at "Real Climbing" as pretty much all those hardened outdoor athletes.

[duncan]

not for me. I'm old and don't bounce.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat- can't boulder at all so low-percentage stuff where you'll fall off many times before you get the knack is way out of the question.

I actually feel like I'd really benefit from doing a bit of comp style stuff as I'm so undynamic and always have been.

Like going to a Catholic school, a good trad. upbringing stays with you! After some encouragement from John Kettle a couple of years ago I've tried to become more dynamic on lead and practiced it fairly regularly. I noticed last summer this was even creeping into trad. and not just desperate slaps in extremis. You could try introducing a bit more bounce into your climbing with a rope on, especially when you don't need to.

[Will Hunt]

I think the main problem I have with it is when they're used a lot in indoor climbing comps. If the purpose of the comp is to find out who the best climber is then blob-jumping has no real relation to Real Climbing - which is outdoor climbing. But I think the idea that indoor climbing comps are about finding out who is the best rock climber is long dead. Blob-jumping is a sport in its own right and indoor comps are about finding out who is the best at jumping between the blobs. So be it. It's not important anyway because it's indoor climbing.

The strange thing is that when these professional blob jumpers take a bit of time off and go on holiday for some rock climbing, it turns out they're as good at "Real Climbing" as pretty much all those hardened outdoor athletes.

Sure, they're not punters. There's obviously cross-over in that you have to be decent to be among the best blob-jumpers. What I'm saying is that being the best blob-jumper is different to being the best climber. That's fine, providing that we remember that rock climbing is sacred and special and that blob-jumping is fucking pointless 


Slightly related aside: in my local climbing club there are people who will occasionally arrange to travel together to climb at a climbing wall in a different city. To go bouldering inside when connies are perfectly good, if not chilly, outside. They walk among us.

[jwi]

A hardened old (>65) strong sport climber here told me: “I don't go to gyms anymore because it is fucking pointless. Even the campus-board has higher transfer to rock”. Nor sure he is right, but I'm lucky that the second nearest gym reset very often and set both comp-style and outdoor style. If I would go more than once a week I would be livid though, or spread the visits over multiple gyms.

I like wacky problems, always did, but I can no longer do anything that involves a four-points move off to a jug. Luckily those are often set low down (so not to kill customers) and I usually just start after the jump.

[teestub]

Sure, they're not punters. There's obviously cross-over in that you have to be decent to be among the best blob-jumpers. What I'm saying is that being the best blob-jumper is different to being the best climber. That's fine, providing that we remember that rock climbing is sacred and special and that blob-jumping is fucking pointless 

I think that if Tomoa did a reverse Ondra and took 6 months to go climbing outside he’d run out of hard problems to repeat in about 4 weeks

[jwi]

I think that if Tomoa did a reverse Ondra and took 6 months to go climbing outside he’d run out of hard problems to repeat in about 4 weeks 😄

True that!

[Nibile]

Nibs, my first post.

I'd say change your password before Dan posts anything else under your name.

Great minds... 

[remus]

I think that if Tomoa did a reverse Ondra and took 6 months to go climbing outside he’d run out of hard problems to repeat in about 4 weeks

Like this you mean?

[cheque]

You could try introducing a bit more bounce into your climbing with a rope on, especially when you don't need to.

Absolutely. I have been doing it a bit but not enough to make a difference that much I think. 

As a slight tangent, the posts about getting too old to repeatedly fall off are interesting...

Mine's not from the cumulative effects of falling onto mats sadly, it's from taking one massive deckout.

[SA Chris]

As a slight tangent, the posts about getting too old to repeatedly fall off are interesting. I have started to notice a disproportionate number of very active climbers aged from mid 30s upwards that are having serious hip problems/hip replacements. These are climbers that have spent 20 years+ bouldering indoors and outdoors above mats. Can't help but think that the current bouldering wall set ups of repeated 2-3m falls might prove to be pretty bad for hip joints long term.

We've just new matting installed, and I definitely feel it in my lower back after a long session, to a point where I'll try and downclimb most things before dropping off.  Hips still OK at present, I think again a fair bit of running and conditioning work actually does more good than harm.

[HarryBD]

Hips still OK at present, I think again a fair bit of running and conditioning work actually does more good than harm.

Yep think the impact from running (once conditioned) is the happy medium between sitting on your arse, hollowing out your bones and becoming Skellig and cratering from the sky and becoming goo

[sdm]

Good post... I think your point about making the easier problems more appealing with a more graduated learning curve is a good one and on the whole is well carried out.

Maybe I should head over there some time. Coordination problems are a big weakness of mine. Other than an occasional toehook catch, I struggle as soon as multiple limbs start moving at once or when paddle moves are needed. It's not for lack of trying, but I don't seem to be improving at them.

Maybe setting feedback boxes are the way forward to get what everyone wants?... I know some walls have them, but certainly not every wall.

Big Rock in Milton Keynes has just started an online route feedback system. TCA used to have one years ago when I climbed there. I've always been surprised that more walls don't have one.

It gives the setters and management feedback on what is/isn't working for their clientele and it gives the climbers an opportunity to discuss the quality/difficulty/variety/frequency of setting (and beta too on some systems).

A lot of the regulars are probably going to make their views known anyway. But less frequent or shy climbers probably won't without the option of being able to do it online.

A decent system will also allow the wall owners to spot patterns over time regarding whether they are getting the grades right over a particular range or how well certain guest setter's routes are received etc.

Interesting that your customers are psyched on the blob jumping style on the whole. What percentage of them do you reckon have climbed outside/climb outside regularly?

I'd hazard a guess that maybe 15% or less of our customers actually climb outside and i think that guess is on the generous side. Being a new wall in a city centre the vast majority of our customers started climbing with us, so the blobby style is almost the norm for them. Some obviously do get out, but I suspect they maybe get out a couple times a year tops!

With our nearest rock being an hour or two away, the number who climb outdoors from here is definitely lower than 15%, even among the wall regulars. If you discount the Easter Font trip plus maybe an annual pilgrimage to the plantation or horseshoe, the number of outdoor climbers is tiny.

The number who travel to climb outdoors regularly is also outnumbered by the number who will travel the same distance to visit a different wall or to go to a competition.

That's good to know! Roughly that's my thought process, the board has plenty of crimps from finger friendly to heinously small one. So if you want them, there it is... That being said, a board isn't what everyone wants, so yeah maybe some more on the overhangs is the way to go, it's not too big of a deal to do as they take so little space.

The Venn diagram of those who regularly use the boards at our wall and those who regularly climb outdoors is more or less a single coloured circle.

[cheque]

I'd hazard a guess that maybe 15% or less of our customers actually climb outside and i think that guess is on the generous side. Being a new wall in a city centre the vast majority of our customers started climbing with us, so the blobby style is almost the norm for them. Some obviously do get out, but I suspect they maybe get out a couple times a year tops!

With our nearest rock being an hour or two away, the number who climb outdoors from here is definitely lower than 15%, even among the wall regulars. If you discount the Easter Font trip plus maybe an annual pilgrimage to the plantation or horseshoe, the number of outdoor climbers is tiny.

Completely  but do walls in this situtation (miles from rock, most of the users started climbing at that wall and climb there almost exclusively) see a drop-off of people who are keen and regular users just getting bored with it after a few years? I often feel like this must be the case for all but a few people who don't get into rock climbing or comps. I assume walls are pretty familiar with stats of how many people only visit once and never again, how many visit regularly but only for a few months, how many come twice a week for a longer period etc. but are such "lifespan" stats taken into account or is the indoor climbing boom too young to say?

[steveri]

Sounds like I was well out with my >50% and being generous to wall users ...that being the 'right' answer, that people *should* want to climb outside. Ironic if walls were to become gradually less useful for people that want to climb outside

The geek in me wants to know more about stats about who uses a wall, how wide they spread their wall wings, whether they go outside, how often etc. I too have come across the "let's have an away day at all wall X an hour away" ...when it's lovely outside. 

[Fiend]

Nibile you can spare some precious hand-sanitiser to wash your mouth out too. Honestly I'm mortified. I think at least my posts have variety, some positivity and even relevance. Oh, and comprehensibility too...

It seems people are able to cope with a fairly topical discussion like this one 

Roberto, Paulio - usually I do pretty well on Depot blobs, 6 or so pretty quick. I asked when the latest batch went up so was forewarned they were shortterm ...

[dunnyg]

I went to my nearest wall yesterday, they had stripped a section of wall and set some comp style comp problems.
I have to say I did enjoy the ones I could do. The ones I couldn't I generally thought were stupid, including a "run at the wall, and jump on a slopey volume to stand up into a press". I cheated into the start and couldn't do the next move anyway.

That said, there were 8 problems across a section of wall that normally must have 20-30, which is frustrating. Also I got too keen to get on them, didn't warm up properly and tweaked something, making for a short session 

[spidermonkey09]

"run at the wall, and jump on a slopey volume to stand up into a press".

Whether I can do these or not I consider them to be the worst examples in the genre.