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Boards for beginners. (Read 2613 times)

Fiend

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Boards for beginners.
March 11, 2020, 05:04:44 pm
Basically. Fiend is not a very good boulderer, so instead of trying to become a better boulderer he has decided to make his own achievements mean more by devaluing everyone else's.
Basically. Will is as fair and accurate as you'd expect. Indeed I spend many hours over multiple sessions per week pushing really hard with my posting of UKB discussion threads, and in comparison very occasionally when a vague idea strikes me, a mere 15 minutes casually bouldering outside, bouldering inside, going on a campus board/woody and at least one little complementary gym session / run, oh and watching my diet and daily stretching.

But say hypothetically it was the other way around and I actually spent a lot of time trying hard to become a better boulderer by the methods above - that would include one of my driven, focused sessions a week being on wood, indeed quite often the Substation system board. As someone who is not a REDS-ridden crimp waif ectomorphic outspewing of pure sinew, I have taken to this like a cat to water, but on the other hand I do quite like it because the holds are really skin friendly, the lights are pretty, and I feel it is partly working my weakness. But without this deteriorating into a Lattice-level pit of over-regimented misery, I do have some questions:

1. Fatigue during the session - I seem to get tired out unduly quickly. I'm pacing myself with plenty of rests and no newb-ish "jumping straight back on a near miss", and warming up well but not excessively. But it seems that burn-out happens much quicker than in a normal indoor session, in terms of amount of climbing time. Is this just a normal function of being relatively unused to volume at that angle??

2. Fatigue on steepish stuff the next day - I've noticed a bit of a correlation here. Climbing non-steep stuff after has been fine, but I've noticed a lack of power on steeper terrain the day after - more so than after a long indoor bouldering session (if skin survives) or even a campus/hanging session. Again, is this just the obvious reason??

3. Grades - I would ask why they are a complete and utter fictitious pack of lies that are particularly uninformative given the actual difficulty always varies from the given grade right up to a full Font number grade harder, but I suspect I'm not going to get a straight answer. Instead, is there any secret knowledge I'm missing for dealing with the ludicrous grade range?? Having to waste lots of time on ever single "Font 6B" problem having a good look, testing the holds, pulling on a couple of moves to work out where it is between 6B and 7B before trying it gets a bit tedious.... Is it just learning the board enough to quickly know what 6Bs are in the 6C-7A sweet spot, or is there some trick??

Ta x

remus

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#1 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 11, 2020, 06:19:11 pm


1. Fatigue during the session - I seem to get tired out unduly quickly. I'm pacing myself with plenty of rests and no newb-ish "jumping straight back on a near miss", and warming up well but not excessively. But it seems that burn-out happens much quicker than in a normal indoor session, in terms of amount of climbing time. Is this just a normal function of being relatively unused to volume at that angle??


Yeah that's pretty normal, especially if you dont climb on the board a lot. If you want to extend your session then Id say take longer rests between goes, especially when trying stuff at your limit.

Quote

2. Fatigue on steepish stuff the next day - I've noticed a bit of a correlation here. Climbing non-steep stuff after has been fine, but I've noticed a lack of power on steeper terrain the day after - more so than after a long indoor bouldering session (if skin survives) or even a campus/hanging session. Again, is this just the obvious reason??


Yes, it's the obvious reason.

Quote

3. Grades - I would ask why they are a complete and utter fictitious pack of lies that are particularly uninformative given the actual difficulty always varies from the given grade right up to a full Font number grade harder, but I suspect I'm not going to get a straight answer. Instead, is there any secret knowledge I'm missing for dealing with the ludicrous grade range?? Having to waste lots of time on ever single "Font 6B" problem having a good look, testing the holds, pulling on a couple of moves to work out where it is between 6B and 7B before trying it gets a bit tedious.... Is it just learning the board enough to quickly know what 6Bs are in the 6C-7A sweet spot, or is there some trick??

I've found it's largely about learning the board. Once you know which holds are decent and which are log it's relatively straightforward to get a feel for how hard a problem is going to be. You also tend to build up a bit of a repertoire of moves on a given board, so after a while you can start seeing similarities which really helps if you're trying to judge how hard something is going to be. e.g. I did a big move off that undercut last week, and this hold is a foot further away ergo it's gonna be desperate.

If you haven't done much board climbing before I'd say it'll take a good 8 to 10 sessions before things really start to click in to place. Stick at it and you'll be campusing through high quality, technical slab problems with feet flapping uselessly in your wake in no time

nai

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#2 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 11, 2020, 06:31:30 pm
Tempting as it is to post a link to the recent Lattice video about this

1. Power out happens quickly to start with, took maybe 6-8 sessions to build a bit of session endurance

2. Never noticed this, I did end the session as soon as I started to power down rather than fight through it.

3. Grades are all over the place, on the Moonboard you can filter just the "benchmarks" which gives you a fighting chance but they can still be ridiculous. Cos, yeah 6Bs go up 40 degree walls on first joint edges all the time. 
And they're morpho, I worked out which row of holds I could reach with feet on kick board and aything that was out of reach until you've got an alternative foothold I wouldn't bother with.
Likewise top moves, work out the row you can reach the top off and dismiss anything lower.
Although this changes as you learn to be more dynamic but varies depending on the holds. Time on the board learning your favoured holds the obvious answer.

Fiend

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#3 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 12, 2020, 09:06:12 am
Cheers guys. I'll stick with it - and use my extra resting time to make sense out of the holds / problems.

I once did a footless move on Honourary Caley at Stanage so maybe I'm on the right track...

tomtom

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#4 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 12, 2020, 09:33:33 am
Is this on the 30 or 50 at the Depot Fiend? Or the LED board at Macclesfield?

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#5 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 12, 2020, 11:00:43 am

3. Grades - I would ask why they are a complete and utter fictitious pack of lies that are particularly uninformative given the actual difficulty always varies from the given grade right up to a full Font number grade harder,


Agree that the grades on boards are made up and only apply to that board. They've just changed the holds on the  Moonboard at AverticalWorld in Dundee from the 2016? to 2019 setup. I lanked my way up a 6B+ Benchmark on the old setup, I can't even climb to the top using all the holds on the new setup.

Because I am too weak to train anything other than strength and power on a 40 degree board I always use a timer to make sure I get at least 2-3 minutes rest between goes on the board.

Fiend

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#6 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 12, 2020, 08:30:27 pm
TT - Subby one. I wish the Depot 30' was symmetrical, all nice wood and lit up, you wouldn't get me off it. Apart from the Blob Wrestle sessions ofc.

tomtom

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#7 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 12, 2020, 08:47:59 pm
I really like the wood hold LED boards (forgotten their name). I use the 50 at the Depot but have a big soft spot for the 35 at Mad Volume which has the beast maker Ally footholds.. (chromedomes?). I swear itís harder to climb on that than the 50 with better footholds.

Iíve not manage to do anything on the BUK boards with their wooden dome footholds... but only been there once.

I much prefer them to the regular wall problems now... log on - have my projects and work through them.

Itís also quite good doing mirrors on the easier ones when warming up. Strange doing the same problem the other way..

Fiend

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#8 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 12, 2020, 08:50:38 pm
I don't tick a problem until I've done the mirror. Haven't noticed any glaring inequalities yet...

tomtom

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#9 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 12, 2020, 08:53:05 pm
I don't tick a problem until I've done the mirror. Haven't noticed any glaring inequalities yet...

Oooooh.. check you out training pedant 😃

I find placing my feet my biggest source of cock up on mirrors.

moose

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#10 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 12, 2020, 11:24:27 pm
TT - Subby one. I wish the Depot 30' was symmetrical, all nice wood and lit up, you wouldn't get me off it. Apart from the Blob Wrestle sessions ofc.

The Depot 30 in Pudsey is my "home" board - ratty crimps and pinches, tiny downward sloping footholds, it feels like a UK limestone simulator.   Might be better for training purposes if it was symmetrical but I quite like the variety of movement and hold styles the "splatter" arrangement allows (I have a home woodie that's rigorously symmetrical anyway). Mind you, I suspect this view might be more a subconcious desire to want to avoid public humiliation trying to use the 50!

galpinos

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#11 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 13, 2020, 11:31:23 am
The Manc Depot 30 is, imho, a far better board than the 50 for "normal" outside climbing. However, it takes some effort and having a partner to make stuff up with helps. If not, the ring binder has some ok problems in to get you started.

The 50 is very accessible in that you plug in the grade, choose a problem then voila! However, that type of board climbing is a specific skill (not that applicable to outdoor climbing in the UK imo) and improvement over the first few weeks always feels it is through learning to climb in that style, rather than strength gains. Does work the core though.

I'm more than happy with a mix of the 30 and the colour circuits, with a 50 session when on my own and devoid of inspiration.

Paul B

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#12 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 13, 2020, 01:19:18 pm
The Depot 30 in Pudsey is my "home" board - ratty crimps and pinches, tiny downward sloping footholds, it feels like a UK limestone simulator.

That's a great board. I still want a set of the Traingstone range for my home board but still can't find them anywhere.

The Manc Depot 30 is, imho, a far better board than the 50 for "normal" outside climbing. However, it takes some effort and having a partner to make stuff up with helps. If not, the ring binder has some ok problems in to get you started.

That is not a great board. Do you not find that there a large 'jumps' in hold size when you're not on the blobs?

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#13 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 13, 2020, 01:26:05 pm
I definitely prefer steeper boards because on shallow boards (e.g. 30 degrees) the holds, if slopey, are really conditions dependent and, if crimpy, tend to be bad for the skin.

Re: grades, as long as they are consistent I think it is fine for boards to be undergraded.

moose

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#14 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 13, 2020, 02:17:38 pm
The Manc Depot 30 is, imho, a far better board than the 50 for "normal" outside climbing. However, it takes some effort and having a partner to make stuff up with helps. If not, the ring binder has some ok problems in to get you started.

Isn't the Manc Depot 30 on the Stokd app?  The Pudsey equivalent has near 200 problems posted on it.

Paul B

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#15 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 13, 2020, 02:28:30 pm
Re: grades, as long as they are consistent I think it is fine for boards to be undergraded.

It depends. If you take it to the extreme then things get compressed to the point of being meaningless (useless?).

tomtom

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#16 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 13, 2020, 04:44:37 pm
I definitely prefer steeper boards because on shallow boards (e.g. 30 degrees) the holds, if slopey, are really conditions dependent and, if crimpy, tend to be bad for the skin.

Re: grades, as long as they are consistent I think it is fine for boards to be undergraded.

To me Iím really surprised how much Itís all in the footholds. On the 35 with sparse domes (madvolume) I climb on similar size holds - at similar difficulty - as the 50 with sharp oblongs for feet (depot).

Bradders

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#17 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 13, 2020, 05:18:52 pm
The 50 is very accessible in that you plug in the grade, choose a problem then voila! However, that type of board climbing is a specific skill (not that applicable to outdoor climbing in the UK imo) and improvement over the first few weeks always feels it is through learning to climb in that style, rather than strength gains. Does work the core though.

Couldn't agree more having recently been on the 50 (isn't it actually 55? It's certainly steeper than the Pudsey Depot 50 anyway) for the first time. In my opinion it is actually too steep! All the problems end up being based around jumping between jugs, which doesn't seem helpful at all for outdoor transference.

To me the Depot Pudsey 50 is the perfect balance between small, positive holds you can bone down on and steepness. I'm not a big fan of the 30 there because of the conditions dependent holds but I suppose I ought really to mix it up and use both.

I've not been on the Sheffield Depot board yet but if it's the same as the Ravenswall one it'll be very good.

If there's one board I'd avoid like the plague though it's the Moonboard. Awful.

RE grades; I moaned about this for ages but have come round now. I always thought they ought to be somewhat relatable to outdoor grades but now I think that, as long as they're consistent, it's helpful for things to be massively sandbagged. For what it's worth I think the Depot Pudsey 50 is pretty consistent based on the Stokt app grades.

Fiend

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#18 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 13, 2020, 10:05:28 pm
Manchester 30 is not symmetrical so can lick my baws.

Grades should be useful information so being actually informative is part of that. Subby ones all over the place.

Quite psyched to get back on it soon!

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#19 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 14, 2020, 09:05:48 am
Why is being symmetrical important to you for board climbing Fiend? I mean yes, I understand the concept.. but a good board will allow you to choose problems that test/train climbing in multiple orientations and each hand. Just pick the problems accordingly to work your weakness. I find very twisty cross-through moves on steep angle to be a weakness (find it hard to engage core at right moment), so I do some problems involving those moves, going each way.

Fiend

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#20 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 14, 2020, 09:18:01 am
Aesthetics and geekiness.

petejh

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#21 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 14, 2020, 09:19:16 am
You'd love the latticeboard.  :whistle:

tomtom

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#22 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 14, 2020, 11:46:56 am
Aesthetics and geekiness.

All about the ticks innit.

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#23 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 15, 2020, 12:49:14 pm
Live reporting from the Subby 40. Wall is open. Signs up about hand-washing before and after - very sensible, I obeyed.

Am wearing a Cattle Decapitation vest but listening to old skool drum'n'bass.

Flashed Blurgh 6C on both sides. Now working Snort 6B for the 3rd session.

Have got newly resoled shoes with a stiff edge. Feels like cheating a bit.

Edit: given up on Snort. Can't do the move in isolation. Onto Dark Wood 6B for the 2nd session.

Edit 2: still can't do the one move 6C crux of Dark Wood 6B. Especially not after 6B+/C up until there. A bit closer tho.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2020, 01:18:33 pm by Fiend »

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#24 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 15, 2020, 04:32:06 pm
Their grades are all over the show. I did a 7A on Friday which was about 6A+. Conversely, I previously failed on a 6B there which was about 7B+.

mrjonathanr

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#25 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 15, 2020, 04:33:01 pm
Aesthetics and geekiness.

All about the ticks innit.

Get some Jungle Formula, that'll sort them.

tomtom

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#26 Re: Boards for beginners.
March 15, 2020, 04:55:21 pm
Aesthetics and geekiness.

All about the ticks innit.

Get some Jungle Formula, that'll sort them.

To be fair to Fiend - heís never asked me to go near his groin with some tweezers.

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#27 Re: Boards for beginners.
April 27, 2020, 12:34:07 pm
Hi guys, bit of an extension to this topic.
I've just built my first woodie and been climbing on it for a couple of weeks. It's 45 degrees, just under 3 panels long with a mixture of HWH and Crusher holds. Some of the feet are ok and some are the wooden domes. It's mostly very core and shoulder intensive, at least for me.

In the past when going through periods of home training I've always combined fingerboarding with TRX work and some other core stuff. Now though, I've stopped doing any TRX or core work because I don't want either shoulders or core to be tired before climbing on the board. However I'm not sure if there are aspects of those I should keep training alongside board climbing. Does anyone have an opinion on this?

tomtom

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#28 Re: Boards for beginners.
April 27, 2020, 12:57:54 pm
Do core and shoulder stuff on non board days. A steep board with shit footholds will work both...

Iím doing some shoulder exercises (rather than work out) to keep them mobile every day. Some light dumbbell work and face pulls.

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#29 Re: Boards for beginners.
April 27, 2020, 01:15:14 pm
Some light dumbbell work and face pulls.

"face pulls" - you're training gurning?  That's dedication! I dread to think of the consequences of too much added weight!
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 01:23:17 pm by moose »

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#30 Re: Boards for beginners.
April 27, 2020, 01:21:01 pm
Haha moose I had this image of Tomtom's lockdown training


tomtom

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#31 Re: Boards for beginners.
April 27, 2020, 01:35:30 pm
Face pulls. Apologies for the Ďfuck yeahí gym style YouTube explainer at the end... they are a tip from Nai. Very good for the rotator cuff Iím told.

I use a theraband around a bannister - and 20-30 of these after a session seems to balance up the shoulders - and has stopped any aches between the shoulder blades. N=1 etc...


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#32 Re: Boards for beginners.
April 27, 2020, 02:10:27 pm
More on Face Pulls:

https://youtu.be/eIq5CB9JfKE?t=374

Also doing these after board/hang sessions at the moment:

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_EIZCFlGxv/

205Chris

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#33 Re: Boards for beginners.
April 27, 2020, 02:12:16 pm
Hi guys, bit of an extension to this topic.
I've just built my first woodie and been climbing on it for a couple of weeks. It's 45 degrees, just under 3 panels long with a mixture of HWH and Crusher holds. Some of the feet are ok and some are the wooden domes. It's mostly very core and shoulder intensive, at least for me.

In the past when going through periods of home training I've always combined fingerboarding with TRX work and some other core stuff. Now though, I've stopped doing any TRX or core work because I don't want either shoulders or core to be tired before climbing on the board. However I'm not sure if there are aspects of those I should keep training alongside board climbing. Does anyone have an opinion on this?

Board first, TRX after.

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#34 Re: Boards for beginners.
April 27, 2020, 04:15:29 pm
Hi guys, bit of an extension to this topic.
I've just built my first woodie and been climbing on it for a couple of weeks. It's 45 degrees, just under 3 panels long with a mixture of HWH and Crusher holds. Some of the feet are ok and some are the wooden domes. It's mostly very core and shoulder intensive, at least for me.

In the past when going through periods of home training I've always combined fingerboarding with TRX work and some other core stuff. Now though, I've stopped doing any TRX or core work because I don't want either shoulders or core to be tired before climbing on the board. However I'm not sure if there are aspects of those I should keep training alongside board climbing. Does anyone have an opinion on this?

Board first, TRX after.

What TRX stuff do you do after a board session Chris?  What I'm not really sure is what types of exercise on TRX are essentially replaced by the training my shoulders/core get on a board, and what I need to keep up alongside it.

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#35 Re: Boards for beginners.
April 27, 2020, 05:00:56 pm

[/quote]

What TRX stuff do you do after a board session Chris?
[/quote]

To add my +1. I also do Board then TRX / Shoulder stuff.

Just basic stuff like IYTs and external rotation with a theraband.

Rationale is, for me, board climbing tends to tire the major muscle groups and is internal rotn dominant whereas IYTs / ext rotn is to specifically target the rotator cuff muscles to aim to get a bit more shoulder stability.

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#36 Re: Boards for beginners.
April 27, 2020, 05:05:46 pm
For those of us without TRXs, can we just do push ups?

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#37 Re: Boards for beginners.
April 27, 2020, 05:49:34 pm
You could try some of these:


https://youtu.be/tV3lSdmg0AA?t=339

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#38 Re: Boards for beginners.
April 27, 2020, 06:50:56 pm
Thanks TomTom and Nai too. That's reminded me of at least one more exercise I used to do a few years ago when I had an impingement problem that I had forgotten about.
Face pulls look similar ish to reverse flies on the trx but with elbows bent. Might give them a go.

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#39 Re: Boards for beginners.
April 27, 2020, 07:41:56 pm
Thanks TomTom and Nai too. That's reminded me of at least one more exercise I used to do a few years ago when I had an impingement problem that I had forgotten about.
Face pulls look similar ish to reverse flies on the trx but with elbows bent. Might give them a go.

I donít know what a reverse fly is - but as Nai explained it to me the main bit of the face pulls that does good stuff is the rotating the arm backwards (with elbows horizontal) towards the end of the pull. Pls correct me if wrong...

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#40 Re: Boards for beginners.
April 27, 2020, 08:22:03 pm
Hi guys, bit of an extension to this topic.
I've just built my first woodie and been climbing on it for a couple of weeks. It's 45 degrees, just under 3 panels long with a mixture of HWH and Crusher holds. Some of the feet are ok and some are the wooden domes. It's mostly very core and shoulder intensive, at least for me.

In the past when going through periods of home training I've always combined fingerboarding with TRX work and some other core stuff. Now though, I've stopped doing any TRX or core work because I don't want either shoulders or core to be tired before climbing on the board. However I'm not sure if there are aspects of those I should keep training alongside board climbing. Does anyone have an opinion on this?

Couple of thoughts:
- I used to do a lot of TRX work alongside board sessions. The perceived knowledge in terms of a hierarchy (as others have said) is something like max hangs > board > TRX > repeaters/anaerobic hangs > core > stretching and I basically stuck to this religiously, however I often found TRX sessions would have an effect on board sessions even a couple of days later.
- However in the last year and a bit I cut out the TRX and did more on the board, and have gotten noticeably better on the board as a result. I'm not sure whether I'm actually stronger/better or just more recovered and able to put in higher quality efforts but it's made a difference. Pretty sure it's helped with real climbing too  :-\
- If you really want to include TRX, do it immediately after a short board session, before your core is fatigued. The principle still applies that strength work should be done when fresh.
- All that said, I've never really done any core (until recently) apart from on the TRX and it shows; can't keep my feet on when others can, can't do a front lever to save my life, etc. It's probably advisable not to neglect it like I have. I excused myself by reasoning that I do a lot of steep climbing anyway, so my core is probably okay, but it could always be better.


And some general musings:
- My personal idea of an ideal board set up is one that gives you lots of options. If you're finding it particularly hard work on your shoulders and core, then I would guess that you're mainly using fairly good holds with poor feet, and making it hard via big moves?
- Ideally have completely uniform footholds, i.e. you can't just sit on one really good one to do a problem, whilst ignoring all the shit ones. I have three different foot options on mine; decent flat edges, small incut edges and feet follow hands, and am adding slippery domes this week. Problems climb very differently by changing the feet, especially feet follow hands.
- Get a big variety of holds. Board climbing will always be it's own style but you can at least get a good variety of grips. Doing so will also vary how shoulder/core/finger intensive your problems are.
- Another way of mixing it up (and targeting the core on the board) is to use ankle weights. Definitely ups the ante.
- Contrary to all the above, if you've only had the board two weeks and presumably weren't climbing before that during lockdown then you might just be re-adapting to doing some climbing movement. Maybe give it a couple more weeks before adding anything in terms of either exercise or equipment.

Sidehaas

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#41 Re: Boards for beginners.
April 27, 2020, 09:51:38 pm
Lots of good stuff to think about there, thanks!

JJP

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#42 Re: Boards for beginners.
April 28, 2020, 09:06:39 am
I don`t have TRXs but have gym rings which I imagine are similar.  It probably depends how intense what you are doing on them gets.  I mainly use therabands and the rings for external rotator and push type exercises.  I often do a light session of this before board session as part of warm up to get going (eg. several external rotator theraband exercises with some push ups and dips on the rings).  I only really try a more intense session with the rings if my fingers are in need of a rest and I don`t plan a board session or I might do it after a board session if I planned to rest the following day.  As others say I would prioritise board session - giving circumstances there will definitely be days where your fingers/ skin need a break and you can use the TRX.   

jshaw

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#43 Re: Boards for beginners.
April 28, 2020, 09:46:31 am
For those of us without TRXs, can we just do push ups?

I made my 'TRX' using an old piece of abseil rope and made handles using plastic bottles wrapped in climbing tape. Bowlines to adjust the height.

It's why I was asking about cutting rope in the DIY tread.

Does the job for now.

 

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