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Coronavirus Covid-19 (Read 46876 times)

Nigel

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#1125 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 26, 2020, 08:47:58 pm
Someone paying a minimum salary from a limited company then the rest of what really should be salary as dividend saves them selves a fortune in tax and also the company saves on NI. The biggest tax loop hole in the country that is used by tens of thousands.

I know absolutely nothing about this sort of thing to be honest, but on an instinctive level being say a single person rope access worker who is a Ltd. company has always seemed a bit of an odd one. There are no huge set up costs, or indeed ongoing costs / liabilities which require Ltd. status. And semantically being the sole shareholder just seems weird for a start (not really sharing is it?). They are sole traders.

All that said, I would happily rather see the tax loopholes used by large corporations closed as a priority.

As an aside, a lot of companies seem quite happy to be the sole employer of self-employed people on effectively a full time basis, rather than make them employees with increased rights, to save themselves a few bob on NI and holiday pay...as always these things cut both ways.

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#1126 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 26, 2020, 08:52:34 pm
They were already clamping down on one man Ltd companies with the IR35 reforms. Theyíve been postponed to next April now due to the virus. The offshore brigade all going ape about having to go PAYE as you can imagine.

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#1127 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 26, 2020, 09:19:11 pm
I'm getting nothing at all from this deal. The irony is that I left a (part-time) teaching post in December. I'd have been getting full pay to do not a lot, probably a day or two a fortnight.

Instead I've been freelancing this year, supplemented by a bit of supply teaching. I've still got some freelance work coming in and can work from home with a few compromises. I have been lucky to have relatively steady, if small, income so far this year from it, but keeping supply teaching in the pocket is important so that I can maintain cashflow if needed. There's limited chance of anything from that now, probably until September. I've been doing some freelance since 2017, but it was a minor part of my income for the first 2 years, so I don't think I'll be seeing a penny.

Luckily I have savings and even if they're depleted I'm basically guaranteed some teaching work once this is all over. My other half is working in risk management for the Department for Education and earns enough to keep us afloat if needed as well. She's earning her pennies at the moment!

 

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#1128 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 26, 2020, 10:04:54 pm
Have all the CV 19 threads merged into 1 now?

SamT

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#1129 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 26, 2020, 10:24:24 pm
Have all the CV 19 threads merged into 1 now?

I don't think so, though it probably wouldn't alter any of them is they were, as there's been so much interrelated discussion.  I was surprised at the initial splits TBH.

gme

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#1130 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 26, 2020, 10:42:30 pm
Someone paying a minimum salary from a limited company then the rest of what really should be salary as dividend saves them selves a fortune in tax and also the company saves on NI. The biggest tax loop hole in the country that is used by tens of thousands

As an aside, a lot of companies seem quite happy to be the sole employer of self-employed people on effectively a full time basis, rather than make them employees with increased rights, to save themselves a few bob on NI and holiday pay...as always these things cut both ways.

We employ a few subbies due to necessity but not happy with it.
We prefer to operate a zero hours contract with people if they and we want a flexible agreement. This costs us a bit more but also the employee more and a lot wonít donít want it.
The construction industry is bad for it but the rope access industry, especially off shore is diabolical.

There was almost a wry smile on the chancellors face as he mentioned how things needed to change.
If you here a sole trader/ Ltd rope access worker complaining about the deal they are getting tell them to go fuck themselves. As they should be able to look after themselves with all the tax they havenít paid. 


gme

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#1131 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 26, 2020, 10:47:41 pm
And apologies if I am ranting on. Had a mental week and just got my self very angry looking twitter about this subject.
I know exactly what goes on with self employment and the dark arts of accountants and am not squeaky clean myself. The people moaning are the same as the guy on question time claiming not to be one of the 5% whilst earning 90k.

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#1132 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 26, 2020, 10:56:42 pm
You're not ranting (much) gme you're spot on and I feel exactly the same. Some of these people are, in their particular socio-economic bracket, the equivalent of MPs who robbed public funds during the expenses scandal; bankers who gamed the system for their personal benefit or corrupt business owners who screw their employees. If it wasn't such a public health disaster you could almost imagine the staff of chancellor's office chuckling at this once-in-a-century opportunity to give back to the one man Ltd company wankers exactly what they deserve from the state - i.e. fuck-all. This is one of the few good things to come out of this pandemic.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 11:02:27 pm by petejh »

BrutusTheBear

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#1133 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 26, 2020, 11:25:33 pm
Iím all for applauding those on the front line putting themselves in danger, they are massively heroic.  However, does anyone else see the irony in the general public clapping the NHS when many having only recently voted to continue running it into the ground? :wall:

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#1134 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 27, 2020, 07:40:42 am
A peach of bad reporting Spectator ness for those interested https://twitter.com/frasernelson/status/1243266492063461376?s=21

The academic source turns out to be a retired (Imperial) Prof of micro-engineering....

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#1135 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 27, 2020, 07:57:38 am
Iím all for applauding those on the front line putting themselves in danger, they are massively heroic.  However, does anyone else see the irony in the general public clapping the NHS when many having only recently voted to continue running it into the ground? :wall:

I'm not sure that trying to make a political statement here is in any way helpful.  Now is the time that hopefully everyone just listens to what the PM,  CMO, etc keep saying and just stay the f*** at home.

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#1136 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 27, 2020, 08:22:08 am
Some interesting points regarding the self employed. I know there is a significant amount of piss taking that goes on but on the other hand (I know I would say this!) the caricature you have presented of tax dodging one man bands does not match what my parents do! I would have no objection to closing loopholes but its a bit rich to prioritise this one when big corporations get away with blue murder at the other end of the scale isn't it? More generally, personally this seems a poor time to explicitly exclude people from state support; even if you disagree with their company structure (which incidentally is recommended by accountants everywhere as you know) they are skint just like everyone else and have mortgages to pay. Some of the comments smack of schadenfreude a little.

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#1137 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 27, 2020, 08:23:50 am
Update from the Foodbank

We have mobilised about 10% of the volunteer offers of help we've had (over 2,000 up to now)

New packing centre for emergency food parcels should be fully operational next week, we have also secured daily fresh fruit and veg deliveries as well as bread to supplement the packs we'll be sending out

Currently a bit stymied by bigger organisations than ours playing catch up with where we're at

Seems to be a lack of boxes (I need 10,000)

Regular H&S briefings coming from the council are being actioned at the central warehouse and distribution centres.

Again a bit stymied by lack of PPE as most stocks are rightly being directed to the NHS although we are classed as an essential service

Half our staff working from home - skeleton staff and vols at main office so we can adhere to distancing requirements

Moving to an e-referral process for food vouchers is a ball ache but we're getting there - main hassle is training people to use the system

My main stress is the phone calls being never ending - we have ended up taking it off the hook and picking up messages twice a day. This is a very emotional task and we have all felt overwhelmed at times.

The council have set up a central phone line without much thought or expertise in managing the calls. Most are being referred to us -100's of people each day and we are struggling to keep on top of them. Most people are actually ok and just worried but we are increasingly having to look to deliver food parcels - something we have never done before. Hopefully by next week we will be mobilising local taxi firms to do this for us.

One lady threw a parcel back at one of my drivers yesterday as she wouldn't deign to eat "that crap". This is going to be a wake up call for many people when they realise how dire the social security system is and what emergency food provision actually looks like!!

We are not tasked with helping shielded groups although not much seems to be happening for them at present

Personally, I cannot sleep. We've shortened our working day to 9-4 but I've been in work since 7 ...

Don't know if this is useful and I'm pushed for time so this may not make much sense - hoping to give a flavour from the front line that's not the NHS...

Take care people - in my opinion, it's going to get much worse before it gets better...

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#1138 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 27, 2020, 08:38:54 am
t; even if you disagree with their company structure (which incidentally is recommended by accountants everywhere as you know) they are skint just like everyone else and have mortgages to pay. Some of the comments smack of schadenfreude a little.

There is no schadenfreude at all. I do exactly as they do, and most directors,  so am far from squeaky clean And am in exactly the same position in relation to what the government is offering me.  There is nothing illegal and itís common practice but I also donít expect to be supported by the government now itís not working for me.
It is pushed on people by accountants ( for who I have the same regard as politicians) but I canít believe it wasnít explained and therefore  were not aware of why itís done like that or that they agreed to It.
As I have said already I donít have an issue with it but I do have one when people are now complaining the government isnít supporting them.


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#1139 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 27, 2020, 08:41:34 am

 accountants ( for who I have the same regard as politicians)


On this we totally agree!

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#1140 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 27, 2020, 08:50:57 am
Get them to look at how much tax they have paid in the last three years on income earned then compare it to what would have been paid under PAYE.
The difference will most likely be considerably more than the 7500 the government is offering for three months furloughing.

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#1141 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 27, 2020, 08:58:29 am
Some interesting points regarding the self employed. I know there is a significant amount of piss taking that goes on but on the other hand (I know I would say this!) the caricature you have presented of tax dodging one man bands does not match what my parents do! I would have no objection to closing loopholes but its a bit rich to prioritise this one when big corporations get away with blue murder at the other end of the scale isn't it? More generally, personally this seems a poor time to explicitly exclude people from state support; even if you disagree with their company structure (which incidentally is recommended by accountants everywhere as you know) they are skint just like everyone else and have mortgages to pay. Some of the comments smack of schadenfreude a little.

Not that weíve ever drawn one, however a Dividend is taxable. At a lower rate than income tax, but thatís meant to reflect the risk. Most company directors draw a salary, on which they pay NI and IT as required.
I understand your ďone man bandĒ image, however, the type you describe is not what a LTD company was supposed to be and is, surely, illegal? If you are aware of such, shouldnít you be reporting it? You seem to believe itís wrong, after all.

When I ran Avalon G, I was a sole director. My insurance company wouldnít have covered a sole trader to carry out that kind of work.
(I was not the sole shareholder, though), all the surveyors on the team were subcontractors.
Actually, we all subcontracted to each other, each of us having a different specialty. The arrangement allowed us to cover a lot of ground without keeping a large staff on payroll.
Not every investigation I carried out required a physical security consultant, for instance. On the other hand, sometimes you needed a finishings and coating surveyor on the same tasking as an Anti-piracy/terrorism consultant.

My point being, you tarred a lot of people with a very broad brush.

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#1142 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 27, 2020, 09:09:19 am
Is this directed at me or gme Matt?

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#1143 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 27, 2020, 09:11:20 am

Don't know if this is useful and I'm pushed for time so this may not make much sense - hoping to give a flavour from the front line that's not the NHS...

Take care people - in my opinion, it's going to get much worse before it gets better...

It's very helpful to me. Such social action shows the best side of humanity.  I'd like to see more people here doing stuff to help others and less moaning, particularly about old people (one day they might be old and grumpy and confused). As well as foodbanks it's also important not to forget those involved in social care, assisting the homeless, dealing with domestic abuse (that all indicators point will get worse) and many other support areas to cover the gaps in government and council action (often funded by charities now facing income problems).

We are helping various people: old, those with serious health problems and some who count as both.  One thing that has come out of this is the advice to these people is  really confusing. In particular, 'strongly advised'  is different to 'advised' in exactly what specific ways?  When old folk have knowledgeable people to help them, that they trust, it's easy to persuade them to stay at home and cut risk in other ways but there is a huge number that don't.

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#1144 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 27, 2020, 09:14:13 am
More generally, personally this seems a poor time to explicitly exclude people from state support; even if you disagree with their company structure (which incidentally is recommended by accountants everywhere as you know) they are skint just like everyone else and have mortgages to pay. Some of the comments smack of schadenfreude a little.

Very much agree with this. Whatever the faults in the system there are, now seems a particularly poor time to rectify them, or to penalise people for using legal means of drawing an income.

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#1145 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 27, 2020, 09:18:02 am

My point being, you tarred a lot of people with a very broad brush.

Indeed ... if its illegal (evasion), report it; if it's not (avoidance) campaign to have the tax loopholes closed.

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#1146 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 27, 2020, 09:19:23 am

I'd like to see more people here doing stuff to help others and less moaning


You have absolutely no idea what anyone on here is doing to help.

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#1147 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 27, 2020, 09:21:57 am
Some interesting points regarding the self employed. I know there is a significant amount of piss taking that goes on but on the other hand (I know I would say this!) the caricature you have presented of tax dodging one man bands does not match what my parents do! I would have no objection to closing loopholes but its a bit rich to prioritise this one when big corporations get away with blue murder at the other end of the scale isn't it? More generally, personally this seems a poor time to explicitly exclude people from state support; even if you disagree with their company structure (which incidentally is recommended by accountants everywhere as you know) they are skint just like everyone else and have mortgages to pay. Some of the comments smack of schadenfreude a little.

Not that weíve ever drawn one, however a Dividend is taxable. At a lower rate than income tax, but thatís meant to reflect the risk. Most company directors draw a salary, on which they pay NI and IT as required.
I understand your ďone man bandĒ image, however, the type you describe is not what a LTD company was supposed to be and is, surely, illegal? If you are aware of such, shouldnít you be reporting it? You seem to believe itís wrong, after all.

When I ran Avalon G, I was a sole director. My insurance company wouldnít have covered a sole trader to carry out that kind of work.
(I was not the sole shareholder, though), all the surveyors on the team were subcontractors.
Actually, we all subcontracted to each other, each of us having a different specialty. The arrangement allowed us to cover a lot of ground without keeping a large staff on payroll.
Not every investigation I carried out required a physical security consultant, for instance. On the other hand, sometimes you needed a finishings and coating surveyor on the same tasking as an Anti-piracy/terrorism consultant.

My point being, you tarred a lot of people with a very broad brush.

I understand the reason you describe but at the same time did you choose to pay a realistic salary or, as in most cases, the tax free allowance level then dividend. If itís the later itís only done to avoid paying tax. Therefore you should not expect money back from the tax pot you avoided paying into when things are hard.

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#1148 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 27, 2020, 09:24:46 am

My point being, you tarred a lot of people with a very broad brush.

Indeed ... if its illegal (evasion), report it; if it's not (avoidance) campaign to have the tax loopholes closed.

I am not complaining about the system. Bit hypocritical if I did to be honest.
I am having a go at the people who are complaining the system isnít helping them when they have been playing it for years.

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#1149 Re: Coronavirus Covid-19
March 27, 2020, 09:26:07 am

You have absolutely no idea what anyone on here is doing to help.

Tell us then....  link to others doing great stuff.... this is not the time for 'traditional british modesty'.