[Johnny Brown]

TLDR:

It's not TL, it's paywalled, and I suspect in the Venn diagram of UKB posters vs Telegraph subscribers you are the sole overlap. Paste as a quote?

[chris j]

It also appears on MSN which seems to get round the paywall for me...

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/how-eu-leaders-destroyed-astrazeneca-s-covid-vaccine-dream/ar-AAMIljw?ocid=msedgntp

[Wellsy]

Basically the whole AZ vaccine was maligned for blood clots, but turns out that Moderna and Pfizer have about the same level of potential clotting issues. Several EU vaccine campaign leaders like Macron and Von Der Leyen slagged off the AZ vaccine because it was politically expedient to do so; facing accusations re. the failure of the campaign to get going while the UK forged ahead, they said it was because the UK was rushing a vaccine into play that was dangerous and untested.

Turns out, that's utter bollocks. It's no more dangerous than other ones, it was properly tested, and logistically/financially it's by far the best vaccine for rapid rollout especially amongst poorer nations. It's also the only one produced at cost. Several EU nations are having massive problems using their stocks because their leaders criticised it and now nobody wants to take it.

Macron has always been a piece of shit, but he's truly outdone himself on the vaccine front. His lies about the AZ vaccine to save his own political hide are astounding. Prick.

[SA Chris]

As earlier, AZ was treated like a political football, one minute EU leaders were threatening to sue as AZ were not meeting supply commitments, next minute they were wanting to suspend use saying it as dangerous.

Given Pfizer are set to make $33.5 bn this year from selling vaccines, it's not surprising AZ are pretty hacked off with the whole thing.

[slab_happy]

Masks now being optional is definitely an issue for some, a neighbour of mine is continuing to shield as she has a diminished immune response; now she can no longer drive as she is overdue an assessment from an optometrist for an eye condition, which has to be performed at a specified opticians.

However said opticians can no longer assure her that everyone in the practice will be wearing a mask (‘cos they don’t legally have to). So she can no longer drive, and due to the same mask rules can’t use public transport.

Would it be worth her getting an FFP3 (or similar level) mask for the assessment? That could give her decent protection even if other people are unmasked. Might be worth it in order to be able to drive again and not have to use public transport.

Obviously, it's a question of juggling different risks, and it sucks that she's been put in this position.

[slab_happy]

[The simultaneous effect of having low platelets (preventing a proper clotting response) and having clots as well means that there is no effective treatment - they can't use normal anti-clotting medication.

I thought the current protocol was non-heparin anticoagulants and intravenous immunoglobulin?

https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n1914
https://www.hematology.org/covid-19/vaccine-induced-immune-thrombotic-thrombocytopenia

Don't know how effective that is, but certainly the fatality rate has been dropping: https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/ema-logs-more-clotting-cases-after-astrazeneca-shot-death-rate-lower-2021-05-28/

I will note that not long after my first jab, I got a severe headache with nausea and vomiting which wasn't a normal migraine for me but which ticked all the boxes in the leaflet you get after AZ about potential warning symptoms, and ended up being advised by NHS 111 to go to A&E a.s.a.p. and get a blood test (which I did -- turned out all was fine). So, not trying to downplay this issue, because that was a somewhat scary way to spend a day.

But the stats still make it clear that (subject to previous caveats re: trade-offs and age cut-offs), AZ is much safer than getting Covid.

And it sucks that AZ has this issue, however rare, because in other respects it seems like a workhorse.

Actually, as a side note, I can mention that NHS 111 and A&E seemed to be super on the ball re: VITT/TTS -- if you pick a headache as your primary symptom on the 111 website, the decision tree asks if you had a Covid vaccine within X number of days (and that led to me getting a callback from a nurse and then a doctor).

And if you go into A&E saying "I had AZ this many days ago and I have these symptoms" they know exactly what to test for.

I was rather impressed and reassured by the whole thing.

[Ru]

Actually, as a side note, I can mention that NHS 111 and A&E seemed to be super on the ball re: VITT/TTS -- if you pick a headache as your primary symptom on the 111 website, the decision tree asks if you had a Covid vaccine within X number of days (and that led to me getting a callback from a nurse and then a doctor).

And if you go into A&E saying "I had AZ this many days ago and I have these symptoms" they know exactly what to test for.

I was rather impressed and reassured by the whole thing.

Does make you wonder a bit about prevalence, if all you need to get special attention in an overloaded organisation is a headache in proximity to the vaccine. Good that they're on the ball though.

[slab_happy]

Eh, you don't get special attention -- at least, I didn't, given that I'd stopped throwing up and the headache was starting to ease by the time I finally got to A&E. So I was correctly triaged to the bottom of the priority list, as it was a question of checking to be on the safe side, and spent many many hours sitting in a plastic chair listening to podcasts before they had time to take some blood out of me.

Also, headache in proximity to vaccine alone won't do it; there's a ticky-box list of criteria you have to meet.

But yeah, they've obviously decided to go for aggressively screening for VITT/TTS.

[Ru]

Sorry, I read your post as meaning that just ticking headache x days after the AZ got you a call back from a nurse then a doctor, checking for possible TTS.

[slab_happy]

Oh no, bunch of other criteria too. I wasn't clear; I just meant that "did you have the Covid vaccine within X timeframe?" came up as one of the questions on the website fairly rapidly, presumably on the basis of the symptoms I'd already ticked. And the cumulative picture plus that was enough to trigger a callback.

[Fiend]

don't dismiss it straight away!

You've dismissed any engagement following your previous posts, despite claiming to be interested in what UKBers think. 3rd time lucky to actually discuss the matter?? Or maybe that's quite enough for now?? (It is from me).

[slab_happy]

Hi again! Maybe you missed it, but previously I wrote:

"Welcome back! Glad I didn't manage to scare you off completely, and sorry if I was overly snappish at you before.

You've obviously got some concerns about Covid vaccines, so instead of just posting videos, why not say what it is that you're concerned about, and then people can engage with that?"

Is there a reason why you don't want to express your own views, or even reply to anyone? Try talking to us -- we don't bite (much) ...

Also, an important thing you should know is that Robert Malone isn't the inventor of mRNA vaccines or of using mRNA as a drug.

He authored a few papers in the '90s on DNA/RNA expression vectors; that's it. He had nothing to do with the research that went into creating the current mRNA vaccines and no involvement in it (if anyone was central in putting the building blocks for that in place, it'd be Katalin Kariko and Drew Weissman).

https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1409090438980644868
https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1419062510489980930

Calling himself the inventor of mRNA vaccines is what impolite people might call "a flat-out lie".

There's a tonne of misinformation floating around, and it's really easy for people to make bogus or inflated claims about their credentials. Lot of people out there trying to do an Andrew Wakefield and set themselves up as the Heroic Whistleblower Doctors Telling The Truth The Evil Medical Establishment Wants To Suppress. It's a grift.

So some healthy skepticism and fact-checking is a good thing.

[Oldmanmatt]

The biggest problem, is that everything EWS posts has already been discussed in detail, earlier in the thread.
Meaning, the answers are all there, EWS isn’t really listening and is still trotting out the same questions over and over, possibly in the hope that the answer might change.
Anyway, useful graphic:

[Fiend]

There's 173 pages in this godforsaken thread, who on Earth is going to read through that and expect to emerge with their sanity intact??

[Oldmanmatt]

There's 173 pages in this godforsaken thread, who on Earth is going to read through that and expect to emerge with their sanity intact??

Ummm.
I get the impression Slabs would. Then summarise it, link to relevant posts etc and probably enjoy it.
(If she’s not working as an intelligence analyst, for some sneaky-beaky Government agency, this country is missing a trick. Or at least, working for some “Accountant” , “The Saint”  or international jewel thief type character).
And…
That’s exactly what she has done.

Edit:
I mean the summarise and link thing, not the “international jewel thief/government agency” thing, AFAIK.

[petejh]

More high brow than my last two posts so don't dismiss it straight away!

Dr Robert Malone, the inventor of using RNA as a drug.
It's quite long unfortunately but worth the time. Skip the first 23min.
He gives some of the backstory to the development of the RNA technology and talks about the currant vaccines (from 1:08ish).

Let’s pretend he doesn’t call himself ‘the inventor of using RNA as a drug’, as that makes him appear very self-important and self-regarding. And that you didn’t repeat it.

Can you summarise his points and why you think they’re valid (assuming you do).

[Offwidth]

More high brow than my last two posts so don't dismiss it straight away!

Dr Robert Malone, the inventor of using RNA as a drug.

Some of the concerns Malone raised about vaccines are vaild theories based on problems that have occured in real vaccines. Unfortunately none of the data stacks up with his concerns for Pfizer. Yet Malone still made false claims that it did by misusing data. Science isn't about appeals to authority, it's about verifiable results.

https://www.logically.ai/articles/who-is-dr.-robert-malone

[Ged]

Nice. Is there a comparison graphic for non vaccinated people?

[Oldmanmatt]

Nice. Is there a comparison graphic for non vaccinated people?

Not as well presented, as far as I can see.
Unfortunately, you have to go back to an earlier stage in the pandemic, before any vaccinations took place, really and look at the rates /100k general population for a real insight into the difference. That or parse the current death/symptomatic to cases to general population and know the vaccine status of each (or at least make assumptions based on the % vaccinated of your chosen population).

A more revealing stat, is the one(s) mentioned already in the thread; how many/what is the ratio of vaccinated to non-vaccinated patients represented in hospitalisations and deaths.

It is pretty clear, that with a large majority of the population now at least single dosed, the number of hospitalisations and deaths amongst the unvaccinated is disproportionately high.

Edit:

Or, to put it another way, on the 19th July 2021, ~60% of those hospitalised in the UK for COVID, were unvaccinated, whereas only 12.4% of the adult population of the UK remained unvaccinated on that day..

[Nails]

Whilst I like the graphic, does it not need a timescale to be meaningful? Effectively it's saying that the risk of symptomatic Covid in the vaccinated is roughly 1 in a 1000. Over what period of time and what is the comaparable risk in the unvaccinated?

[Oldmanmatt]

Whilst I like the graphic, does it not need a timescale to be meaningful? Effectively it's saying that the risk of symptomatic Covid in the vaccinated is roughly 1 in a 1000. Over what period of time and what is the comaparable risk in the unvaccinated?

For the second part, see the above post.
But the time scale is from the start of the vaccination program up to 26th July. It’s a US stat, not UK and the graphic was lifted from an ABC article (one of many) :
https://abcnews.go.com/US/symptomatic-breakthrough-covid-19-infections-rare-cdc-data/story?id=79048589 iirc. Apologies, I’ve covered a lot of ground this morning and I’m actually at work. If it’s not there, it should be linked through that article. However, I picked it up originally through a Redit post. Along with much discussion on why the “unvaccinated” equivalent is relatively hard to produce (not least, because the “vaccinated” number changes rapidly and the delay between vaccination and effectiveness of that vaccination. There seemed some educated opinion that this is something we will only truly understand once the vaccination program has reached full maturity and held for two weeks or more. However, the hospitalisation and death rates are good indicators of where that will end up).

Edit:
A quick perusal of the ONS release calendar, shows an expected release date of 04/08/21 for the data needed for the above. I guess they think 88/89 % first dose is mature enough.

[slab_happy]

There's 173 pages in this godforsaken thread, who on Earth is going to read through that and expect to emerge with their sanity intact??

Ummm.
I get the impression Slabs would. Then summarise it, link to relevant posts etc and probably enjoy it.

Awwww, I think that's the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me. *sniffs*

(Can't claim to have my sanity intact, but that was true beforehand ...)

(If she’s not working as an intelligence analyst, for some sneaky-beaky Government agency, this country is missing a trick.

Not my line of work though I'd have to say that, wouldn't I?.

Though (on a tangent) I've always found it hilarious that for over 20 years, GCHQ has apparently had one of the best programmes in the UK for supporting neurodiverse employees. If they recruit people with the abilities they need (especially for high-level cryptography), a ridiculously-high percentage will have autism, ADHD, dyslexia, or other stuff from that cluster, so they've HAD to figure out ways of supporting people like me in the workplace, or they couldn't function.

[Offwidth]

News on an ONS survey on mask compliance (data from last week). It will be interesting to see how this changes in the next few weeks.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/30/95-of-british-adults-still-wearing-a-mask-outdoors-says-survey

(Note ...Ive just spotted that's a very naughty url ....... the survey wasn't about outdoor mask wearing ).

The actual survey

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthandwellbeing/bulletins/coronavirusandthesocialimpactsongreatbritain/30july2021

[battery]

There's 173 pages in this godforsaken thread, who on Earth is going to read through that and expect to emerge with their sanity intact??

Ummm.
I get the impression Slabs would. Then summarise it, link to relevant posts etc and probably enjoy it.

Awwww, I think that's the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me. *sniffs*

(Can't claim to have my sanity intact, but that was true beforehand ...)

(If she’s not working as an intelligence analyst, for some sneaky-beaky Government agency, this country is missing a trick.

Not my line of work though I'd have to say that, wouldn't I?.

Though (on a tangent) I've always found it hilarious that for over 20 years, GCHQ has apparently had one of the best programmes in the UK for supporting neurodiverse employees. If they recruit people with the abilities they need (especially for high-level cryptography), a ridiculously-high percentage will have autism, ADHD, dyslexia, or other stuff from that cluster, so they've HAD to figure out ways of supporting people like me in the workplace, or they couldn't function.

Off topic (apologies) but a someone who works with a lot of neurodivergent people I'd love to know more about that... And get the impression you may have the links at your fingertips!

[slab_happy]

Nah, but I know how to re-find them -- have some samples:

https://www.gchq.gov.uk/information/daring-to-think-differently-and-be-different
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51014028
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/29/people-with-dyslexia-have-skills-that-we-need-says-gchq
https://www.newstatesman.com/spotlight/cyber/2018/10/autism-asset-uk-cyber-security
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/neurodiversity-holds-the-key-to-keeping-britain-safe-tbltlt25m -- paywalled but looks promising