UKBouldering.com

Politics 2023 (Read 465768 times)

TobyD

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3827
  • Karma: +88/-3
  • Job offers gratefully accepted
#2875 Re: Politics 2020
September 27, 2022, 01:20:53 pm
it works for the Tories

I don't think it does work for the Tories, thats my point. If Starmer was to make a barnstorming speech today saying he was going to rejoin the single market/customs union/EU or introduce radical electoral reform it would be front page of all the papers and knock the Tories fucking up the Budget off them. It would also be incredibly easy to counter with 'Labour want to reverse the referendum result' or 'Labour want to stitch up the system to benefit themselves' (I know the latter is unfair but thats how it would be presented.

Currently it will suit Starmer just fine to have the front pages about Tory economic turmoil, and a boring but competent piece on his conference speech on page 4 or 5 of the papers. It will perfectly position him as the competent alternative to visible incompetence. I understand people want more (in an ideal world I do too) but the political logic is inarguable right now.

Incidentally theres been some good left wing policies coming out of the conference so far on green energy, nationalising the railways and a UK sovereign wealth fund.

I agree, getting into power should be the absolute priority for labour at the moment, not anyone's idea of a perfect set of policies. I think they seem to be doing a reasonable job at the moment, three years ago labour was unelectable to many people who they need to vote for them.

Wellsy

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1405
  • Karma: +102/-8
#2876 Re: Politics 2020
September 27, 2022, 01:28:32 pm
Anyway I am just hopeful they can keep up this lead and take it all the way to a GE win

mrjonathanr

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5377
  • Karma: +242/-6
  • Getting fatter, not fitter.
#2877 Re: Politics 2020
September 27, 2022, 02:02:39 pm
Interesting tweet from truss. Although 'jury's out' on Macron, it's clearly 'in' on Meloni:
tweet here
Quote from: Truss
Congratulations to
@GiorgiaMeloni
 on her party's success in the Italian elections.
From supporting Ukraine to addressing global economic challenges, the UK and Italy are close allies.

For those unsure of Meloni's political identity, she defines it here with real passion in this 2019 speech, worth watching from 11.00 onwards:
https://youtu.be/y_Z1LClnhsk?t=771

Quote from: Meloni
Dio, patria, famiglia
Quote from: Mussolini era fascist slogan, Mazzini
Dio, patria, famiglia
« Last Edit: September 27, 2022, 02:22:38 pm by mrjonathanr »

Johnny Brown

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 11437
  • Karma: +690/-22
#2878 Re: Politics 2020
September 27, 2022, 02:38:22 pm
Just to note (not a commendation or a condemnation of either 'wing'), that a sovereign wealth fund is part of the tory's mini-budget policies. So I'm not sure it can be called a left wing policy. Perhaps just a 'sensible' policy.

Have you got a link Pete? It's not on any of the summaries google provides.

All I can find is this: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/09/24/fracking-profits-diverted-sovereign-wealth-fund-plan-drive-growth/

Tories 'considering' a fund for, wait for it... fracking profits!!! Ahahahaha.


BrutusTheBear

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 568
  • Karma: +59/-3
  • Certified socialist talking head of this world.
#2879 Re: Politics 2020
September 27, 2022, 02:48:06 pm
Quote
It would help if the Labour party stopped being so completely and utterly useless, moved into the 21st century, got rid of their ties to the unions and made it policy to at least reverse leaving the single market and customs union - if not rejoining the EU fully.
This is quite amusing.  It were the unions that formed the Labour Party, hence the name.  The party has recently been close to bankrupting itself due to a reduction in union support (if they totally got rid of the union ties, as you suggest, the party would be financially ruined but in the 21st century :lol:).  For some reason the current leadership has stopped the small donation funding drives that were very successful in recent years, probably because 'that's what Corbyn did'.  Plus the party has lost  hundreds of thousands of members under Starmer and the money that came with them..

Back to conference motions, motions are passed at conference and voted on by the delegates sent by branches.  The current leadership is very good at blocking motions they don't like so they don't even reach the floor.  The leadership will ignore a lot of the motions being passed.  Democracy in action :lol:

petejh

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5776
  • Karma: +621/-36
#2880 Re: Politics 2020
September 27, 2022, 02:53:26 pm
I’ll see if I can dig out a better link.


It isn’t only fracking profits it’s all energy profits. The fracking line is a good hook media use to lure in Joe public looking for outrage.  Seems it worked  :P

I’ll see if I can dig out a better link.


edit: 5 mins later I've failed. Although seems the idea was publicly floated in conservative circles in June this year: https://conservativehome.com/2022/06/10/ed-mcguinness-the-security-case-for-a-sovereign-wealth-fund/
« Last Edit: September 27, 2022, 03:13:27 pm by petejh »

spidermonkey09

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2814
  • Karma: +159/-4
#2881 Re: Politics 2020
September 27, 2022, 02:56:05 pm

Back to conference motions, motions are passed at conference and voted on by the delegates sent by branches.  The current leadership is very good at blocking motions they don't like so they don't even reach the floor.  The leadership will ignore a lot of the motions being passed.  Democracy in action :lol:

I understand the difference, but the PR one was a motion; the green energy, sovereign wealth fund and rail nationalisation are all from the front bench I believe?

petejh

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5776
  • Karma: +621/-36
#2882 Re: Politics 2020
September 27, 2022, 03:01:14 pm
BTW anyone wanting to get a perspective from various angles (well, maybe not Truss’s) of the budget policies should pay a couple of quid for a telegraph subscription at the moment (cancel straight away). It usually has decent economic analysis which some may be surprised to learn isn’t necessary aligned with one right wing view, just as the centre and left media aren’t. When read alongside the guardian or FT I find it provides a good overview from most angles.

Good piece in there today I thought, by Ambrose Evans. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/09/27/liz-truss-must-choose-fiscal-u-turn-housing-crash/
« Last Edit: September 27, 2022, 03:09:34 pm by petejh »

BrutusTheBear

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 568
  • Karma: +59/-3
  • Certified socialist talking head of this world.
#2883 Re: Politics 2020
September 27, 2022, 03:09:27 pm

Back to conference motions, motions are passed at conference and voted on by the delegates sent by branches.  The current leadership is very good at blocking motions they don't like so they don't even reach the floor.  The leadership will ignore a lot of the motions being passed.  Democracy in action :lol:

I understand the difference, but the PR one was a motion; the green energy, sovereign wealth fund and rail nationalisation are all from the front bench I believe?
Front bench motions are likely to be followed through.  Didn't think PR was a front bencher's motion??. 

The Corbyn Labour MP blocking motion will 100% be pursued though.  Could be some interesting times for the North Islington branch! 

spidermonkey09

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2814
  • Karma: +159/-4
#2884 Re: Politics 2020
September 27, 2022, 03:12:27 pm
Front bench motions are likely to be followed through.  Didn't think PR was a front bencher's motion??. 


No it wasn't, we're on the same page I think; my point was that unlike the PR one, the frontbench ones will likely progress.

ali k

Offline
  • ****
  • junky
  • Posts: 944
  • Karma: +38/-1
#2885 Re: Politics 2020
September 27, 2022, 03:36:54 pm
It isn’t only fracking profits it’s all energy profits. The fracking line is a good hook media use to lure in Joe public looking for outrage.  Seems it worked  :P

I’ll see if I can dig out a better link.

edit: 5 mins later I've failed. Although seems the idea was publicly floated in conservative circles in June this year: https://conservativehome.com/2022/06/10/ed-mcguinness-the-security-case-for-a-sovereign-wealth-fund/

Are you sure the sovereign wealth fund line wasn't just a good hook the Tories used to try and sell fracking to Joe public because it's so unpopular?

petejh

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5776
  • Karma: +621/-36
#2886 Re: Politics 2020
September 27, 2022, 03:56:45 pm
Funny then, that they failed to mention it to joe public if it was! They made the fracking part very clear in the budget and interviews.

ali k

Offline
  • ****
  • junky
  • Posts: 944
  • Karma: +38/-1
#2887 Re: Politics 2020
September 27, 2022, 04:04:53 pm
Just shit comms all round then.

sdm

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 622
  • Karma: +25/-1
#2888 Re: Politics 2020
September 27, 2022, 06:50:38 pm
BTW anyone wanting to get a perspective from various angles (well, maybe not Truss’s) of the budget policies should pay a couple of quid for a telegraph subscription at the moment (cancel straight away). It usually has decent economic analysis which some may be surprised to learn isn’t necessary aligned with one right wing view, just as the centre and left media aren’t. When read alongside the guardian or FT I find it provides a good overview from most angles.

Good piece in there today I thought, by Ambrose Evans. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/09/27/liz-truss-must-choose-fiscal-u-turn-housing-crash/

Or use archive.ph and save paying for the £49/year subscription or having to sign-up and cancel.

teestub

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2574
  • Karma: +166/-4
  • Cyber Wanker
#2889 Re: Politics 2020
September 27, 2022, 07:08:33 pm
Shame Maggie didn’t think a Sovereign Wealth Fund was the way to go in the ‘80’s with the North Sea.

TobyD

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3827
  • Karma: +88/-3
  • Job offers gratefully accepted
#2890 Re: Politics 2020
September 28, 2022, 08:51:23 am
The current situation is spookily similar in every way to exactly what Rishi Sunak said would happen: https://twitter.com/jonsopel/status/1574876213880954881?t=899DHG7ow9fVz3Z9FwySiw&s=19


BrutusTheBear

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 568
  • Karma: +59/-3
  • Certified socialist talking head of this world.
#2891 Re: Politics 2020
September 28, 2022, 09:54:56 am
Front bench motions are likely to be followed through.  Didn't think PR was a front bencher's motion??. 


No it wasn't, we're on the same page I think; my point was that unlike the PR one, the frontbench ones will likely progress.

Yeah, we're saying the same thing. :)    Begs the question, what's the point in spending all that money, bringing all those people together, debating ideas and agreeing actions which will just get binned by those in charge? 

There are some genuinely great policy statements coming out of the conference, should Labour come into some sort of power (could be shared?), I really hope they follow through. 

SA Chris

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 29221
  • Karma: +630/-11
    • http://groups.msn.com/ChrisClix

BrutusTheBear

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 568
  • Karma: +59/-3
  • Certified socialist talking head of this world.
#2893 Re: Politics 2020
September 28, 2022, 11:11:37 am
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/27/kwasi-kwartengs-tax-cuts-likely-to-increase-inequality-imf-says

IMF now waded in
Who'd of thought that cutting the taxes of higher earners by a larger % than the taxes of lower earners would create an increase in inequality?  Sharp people at the IMF, good that they've made a statement etc. but maybe they should substitute the word 'likely' with 'will'.  I think polling is showing that the majority of the general public understand exactly what a piss take these tax cuts are.

Nails

Online
  • **
  • addict
  • Posts: 134
  • Karma: +12/-0
#2894 Re: Politics 2020
September 28, 2022, 11:14:39 am
"Imagine you're Kwasi Kwarteng: you've got strident views about economic policy and you even wrote a book about it. you finally get the job as chancellor, the peak of your game, and get to test out your ideas! turns out they are garbage and the economy explodes" Jon Stone

SA Chris

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 29221
  • Karma: +630/-11
    • http://groups.msn.com/ChrisClix
#2895 Re: Politics 2020
September 28, 2022, 11:17:00 am
but maybe they should substitute the word 'likely' with 'will'. 

Indeed. I think they need to cage their words carefully, due to their position.

galpinos

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2114
  • Karma: +85/-1
#2896 Re: Politics 2020
September 28, 2022, 11:21:57 am
Very much enjoying the Dan Hanan/Lord Ashcroft line this morning, it wasn't the budget that crashed the pound, it was the fear of a Labour Government.

Re Kier, I think he is performing pretty well at the moment, he seems to have settled into his role and is sounding more confident. He was good on Radio 4 this morning and Rachel Reeves also seems the perfect shadow chancellor to counter this tory government. Ex BofE, good on detail, gets point across without sound like a patronising liberal leftie etc. I feel the current shadow front bench has a renewed sense of purpose and maybe even the outline of a vision they can get behind.

I totally understand the more leftwing members of the party being disappointed with the current status quo after the hope the Corbyn era brought but a competent Labour Party gaining in support with the electorate is, imho, a very good thing, even if they seem too centrist and a bit meh to me.

Using my mum as a bell weather for Labour's fortunes, she announced "I think I'll vote for that Kier next time". She has never, as far as I'm aware, ever voted anything but blue. That may appall the Corbynites but the fact we might actually get a Labour Government is a cause for hope imho.

BrutusTheBear

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 568
  • Karma: +59/-3
  • Certified socialist talking head of this world.
#2897 Re: Politics 2020
September 28, 2022, 02:49:19 pm
Quote
Using my mum as a bell weather for Labour's fortunes, she announced "I think I'll vote for that Kier next time". She has never, as far as I'm aware, ever voted anything but blue. That may appall the Corbynites but the fact we might actually get a Labour Government is a cause for hope imho.

Speaking as a socialist (I guess that makes me a Corbynite), I live in the hope that Keir's coyness in giving out policy detail is all a part of the grand 'stealth socialism' project he began when he became leader.  He is ensuring that the MSM, big business, big money etc..  believe that he won't rock their gin palaces in order to get elected.  Once in position as PM, he will reinstate his 10 pledges and unleash Corbynomics on the masses in a dramatic reversal of the tory playbook.

Realistically though, assuming the socialist group of MPs aren't all purged, they will hold a certain amount of negotiating power depending on the size of any majority.  SNP are likely to hold significant sway as well.  Meanwhile, the membership will continue to put pressure on to introduce things like PR, further nationalisation etc..


seankenny

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1007
  • Karma: +114/-11
#2898 Re: Politics 2020
September 28, 2022, 02:58:54 pm
I’m at a loss as to why my paying £5 a month to the Labour Party should give me a bigger say over policy than an MP who will have received thousands of votes to be elected. Is this the principle that those paying into the political system should get some return on their spending?

BrutusTheBear

Offline
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 568
  • Karma: +59/-3
  • Certified socialist talking head of this world.
#2899 Re: Politics 2020
September 28, 2022, 03:26:22 pm
I’m at a loss as to why my paying £5 a month to the Labour Party should give me a bigger say over policy than an MP who will have received thousands of votes to be elected. Is this the principle that those paying into the political system should get some return on their spending?
Not really certain what you're trying to say Sean.  We ALL pay into the political system (well those of us that pay taxes).  As pointed out above paying your £5 a month doesn't give you a bigger say over policy.  I mean you get to put forward motions via your branch and delegates get to vote on them but that's about as far as it goes.  The MPs in leadership positions then do what they want.
It feels like you're saying that if you can accrue the thousands of votes required to get elected as an MP, you are then entitled to do what ever you want.  Is there not a responsibility to represent the constituents that voted for you or the members that canvassed and campaigned for you?
If not to participate in decision making and be a stakeholder in the party, why are you a member paying in £5 a month then?


 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal