[User deactivated.]

I continue to be absolutely baffled and bemused by the amount of genuine sadness out there. The BBC have just interviewed a young Canadian lady, completely overcome with emotion, who had flown in especially.

Some people just follow the status quo. It's hard to comprehend for us internet types, but for many people, their world view is shaped entirely by the TV and (I hate to use this phrase) "main stream media". I imagine this must have an impact.

A bit like flat earthers. Shocking to know they are out there, shopping in Lidl next to you. 😂

These are the people who've done too much internet and not enough main stream media 

[Bradders]

Anecdotally, several of my family are Christian and have said they viewed the Queen as the leader of their faith, more than a political figurehead. I suspect most Christians would say the same.

I think this must be very Church of England biased. I too have lots of practicing christians in my family and can’t imagine any of them saying that. But then they probably attend or grew up in other denominations.

This is surely obvious no? The monarch has nothing to do with, say Catholicism...

[Bradders]

I continue to be absolutely baffled and bemused by the amount of genuine sadness out there. The BBC have just interviewed a young Canadian lady, completely overcome with emotion, who had flown in especially.

Glad it's not just me. It's utterly bizarre.

[SA Chris]

Wonder if "Candle in the Wind" will get released again and people will stampede Our Price record shops to buy the single. Probably not.

[spidermonkey09]

Firstly on pure numbers, Google tells me there are 85 million members of the Anglican Communion, so it is larger than the British population, with the Monarch as its head. Although the Archbishop is known as the first among equals, they are appointed by the Monarch as the Supreme Governer.

Anecdotally, several of my family are Christian and have said they viewed the Queen as the leader of their faith, more than a political figurehead. I suspect most Christians would say the same.

This obviously makes sense if one is Christian, but given the general decline in CofE attendance (more than halved from 40.3% of the population in 1983 to 16.3% in 2014, from a quick google), thats not going to the biggest part of the the monarchs role for a vast majority of the population. As you say its totally down to individual perspective.

[Oldmanmatt]

Firstly on pure numbers, Google tells me there are 85 million members of the Anglican Communion, so it is larger than the British population, with the Monarch as its head. Although the Archbishop is known as the first among equals, they are appointed by the Monarch as the Supreme Governer.

Anecdotally, several of my family are Christian and have said they viewed the Queen as the leader of their faith, more than a political figurehead. I suspect most Christians would say the same.

This obviously makes sense if one is Christian, but given the general decline in CofE attendance (more than halved from 40.3% of the population in 1983 to 16.3% in 2014, from a quick google), thats not going to the biggest part of the the monarchs role for a vast majority of the population. As you say its totally down to individual perspective.

The term here should be “Anglican”, not “Christian”. Most of my, very devout Christian, older family members would most certainly not view the Queen as the “leader of their faith” in any way, shape or form (in fact, some of them would view the pomp, gilding and ceremony of Monarchy itself, as positively anti-Christian and sinful).

[Will Hunt]

My view is probably warped because our eldest goes to a faith school (we're atheists but it's the best school locally so decided we will give some push back against the indoctrination at home).
I think you'd be surprised at how many people there are who do have some faith but who don't attend church or otherwise outwardly display it or declare it. When I go along to a school assembly and they read a prayer or say a hail Mary or whatever it is, I'm always surprised that all the other parents know what hand gestures to make and what to say and when to say it as I sit there being politely befuddled. If you met them you wouldn't think that these people were religious. Unsurprisingly they don't have two heads.

That sounds stupid. Parents who send their kids to a faith school are religious. Shock! I mean that just looking at church attendance or the behaviours of people that you know doesn't give a true reflection of who is actually religious in their private thoughts.

[spidermonkey09]

Yeah thats definitely true. Church attendance is just a proxy for measuring religious feeling and whether its on the rise or fall. Obviously its as flawed as any other method of measurement (what others are there?)

[Bradders]

It's in the census. 59.3% of the population of England and Wales identify themselves as Christian as of 2011. Can't immediately see more recent data. A lot higher than the 16% attending Church anyway.

[Wellsy]

Only 2.8 miles long at the moment, Wellsy. Get down there quick before the weekend rush.




Also, if anybody wants to watch a guard face plant off the steps then go to 0:25 on the grievestream:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-62897146


I continue to be absolutely baffled and bemused by the amount of genuine sadness out there. The BBC have just interviewed a young Canadian lady, completely overcome with emotion, who had flown in especially.

It's baffling to me as well, just mad. 2.8 miles of queuing to look at a box containing a dead millionaire who had no idea who you were. Ah well.

[36chambers]

I think you'd be surprised at how many people there are who do have some faith but who don't attend church or otherwise outwardly display it or declare it. When I go along to a school assembly and they read a prayer or say a hail Mary or whatever it is, I'm always surprised that all the other parents know what hand gestures to make and what to say and when to say it as I sit there being politely befuddled. If you met them you wouldn't think that these people were religious. Unsurprisingly they don't have two heads.

They might have just attended church when they were kids. I haven't been to a service in about 14 years and I still remember all that jazz.

[petejh]

Has anyone in this queue been seen to exit Westminster Hall? Starting to wonder if the viewing the Queen thing could be a ruse. Thinking trapdoor / shark-filled pool scenes. Then Boris re-emerges on the scene backed by his new model army.

[Oldmanmatt]

Has anyone in this queue been seen to exit Westminster Hall? Starting to wonder if the viewing the Queen thing could be a ruse. Thinking trapdoor / shark-filled pool scenes. Then Boris re-emerges on the scene backed by his new model army.

Soylent Green is now being served in the House of Commons dinning room and all royal palaces…

I think the “Identify as Christian” metric is also misleading (here, I am Christian, whether I like it or not, because “Atheist” is illegal). I mean, I should imagine an awful lot of people really haven’t thought about it much. They know they’re not one of the others, “Church” is just an accepted part of their landscape (and part of their Primary school life, even if it was just an annual Carol service), probably don’t know what agnostic means and declaring yourself Atheist sounds a bit radical. Path of least resistance.

[SA Chris]

Has anyone in this queue been seen to exit Westminster Hall? Starting to wonder if the viewing the Queen thing could be a ruse. Thinking trapdoor / shark-filled pool scenes. Then Boris re-emerges on the scene backed by his new model army.

Or brainwashing. They exit indoctrinated into believing in a superior being that rules over us all.

Same as when they went in really.

[mrjonathanr]

I think you'd be surprised at how many people there are who do have some faith but who don't attend church or otherwise outwardly display it or declare it. When I go along to a school assembly and they read a prayer or say a hail Mary or whatever it is, I'm always surprised that all the other parents know what hand gestures to make and what to say and when to say it as I sit there being politely befuddled.

Yes, I would be Will. Culturally conditioned and genuinely believing are very different beasts and knowing the gestures is not a reliable proxy for believing in the divine imo. I can recite the Protestant version of the Lord’s Prayer on autopilot (and did so, on my first day assembly in a Catholic school-embarrassing!) but it still doesn’t make me a believer. Nice poem, well rehearsed, like all the other little gestures. That’s it.

[teestub]

Do you have to go full Pater Noster at Catholic school?!

[Wellsy]

Last King, last priest, strangled, entrails, freedom etc

[mrjonathanr]

Do you have to go full Pater Noster at Catholic school?!

No, but you would do well to know that the final

‘For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory.’ is considered unbiblical and does not form part of the Catholic Lord’s Prayer.

[Mike Highbury]

I can recite the Protestant version of the Lord’s Prayer on autopilot (and did so, on my first day assembly in a Catholic school-embarrassing!) but it still doesn’t make me a believer. Nice poem, well rehearsed, like all the other little gestures. That’s it.

I was showing the relationship between the Lord's Prayer and Kaddish, recently. I came to a grinding halt when I realised that I don't know the LP, have heard it, know what it's about but never went to school assembly to recite it, natch.

[mrjonathanr]

At least yours wouldn't have been the only voice to ring out the last line in an otherwise silent hall.

[SA Chris]

I was showing the relationship between the Lord's Prayer and Kaddish, recently. I came to a grinding halt when I realised that I don't know the LP, have heard it, know what it's about but never went to school assembly to recite it, natch.

That's weird. I haven't even considered it since I last went to church at about age 18, and jus recited the traditonal one perfectly, then did Psalm 23. Amazing what the brain retains. I can still recite Old Macdonald Had a Farm and can count to 10 in Sotho from having to learn at about age 11, but can't remember what I was going into the kitchen for.

[petejh]

That's why the strategy of religions is to target its victims while they're young, the shit sticks to young blankets.

[Oldmanmatt]

That's why the strategy of religions is to target its victims while they're young, the shit sticks to young blankets.

“Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man”, which is (I believe) Aristotle, though it has come to be associated far more with St Ignatius of Loyola (or sometimes Xavier) and the Jesuit Order.
Which is a less graphic version of Pete’s saw.
I prefer Pete’s version.


Edit:
It can’t be infallible though. I grew up a Wesleyan Methodist, in a sharply divided Cornish village. The split between Church (CoE) and Chapel (us) was deep and definitely class defined, too. For me until I stamped my foot and refused to go at age 10, every Sunday was Sunday school and service, there was absolutely not ornamentation in that chapel, white walls and fire, brimstone and damnation raining from the pulpit.
The old minister died when I was ~8 ish, his replacement was a “Happy Clappy” with three young children, including a boy my age, who is still a close friend (now David Young the celebrated artist). Anyway, the transition from black clad, lip frothing, wizened old dick, literally slamming a bible the size of his own torso onto the lectern as he gleefully explained we were all bound for hell and there was nothing we could do about it (and here’s what’s going to happen when you get there) to Dave’s dad, strumming Kumbya and telling happy tales of missionary work in Zambia, in a floral shirt and jeans; killed off half the over 60’s in the congregation.

Anyway, I never really listened, found it all too far fetched and a bit silly. I was openly critical, often tried very hard to not go (clamping on to radiator and having a loud tantrum etc) was constantly being sent back to the school room during the service for pissing around and was generally considered the anti-christ by most of the old ladies in the front pews. Then, one day, mum walked me into the Sunday school door, I walked through, straight out the back door and pissed off to climb trees and hunt rabbits. They gave up.

[Mike Highbury]

That's why the strategy of religions is to target its victims while they're young, the shit sticks to young blankets.

But it's community, you know? And how are we to live in your country without it? Unless you assimilate to Judaism, which would be ideal, of course.

I'm at variance with others here bc I go to synagogue about 15* a year (festivals, yahrzeits, for mitzvot, when I'm on security duty and for things that I care about like Yom HaShoah).

Was at the normal Shabbat service during the recent Queen's jubilee weekend. The rabbi said that we would finish with singing the national anthem. Cool, I thought, HaTikvah (Israeli nat. anthem, The Hope), this is way of celebrating that I can really get behind. I scowled when God Save the Queen started and carried on discussing with the with the retired theatre impresario who sits next to me how I can get someone to pay an outstanding invoice. Whose advice was on-point, by the way.

[SA Chris]

That's why the strategy of religions is to target its victims while they're young, the shit sticks to young blankets.

Just because i can still recite it, doesn't mean i believe a word of it.