[DAVETHOMAS90]

Taking things aside from the detail and seriousness of the Ukraine crisis, I was referring to the balance of interests for Johnson and the Conservatives, which still can't be ignored against the measures that might be taken.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/26/partygate-putin-war-boris-johnson-ukraine-crisis-prime-minister

Of course Johnson is fully aware of the gravity of things, but hopefully we are also fully aware of the question, sadly, of "what's in it for him?".

[teestub]

Don’t want to disrupt the Ukraine thread, but really needed to say fuck Boris Johnson and the pure shite that comes out of his mouth.

[Paul B]

Don’t want to disrupt the Ukraine thread, but really needed to say fuck Boris Johnson and the pure shite that comes out of his mouth.

Can we add Mogg?

The distain for the rest of us when he speaks is palpable. It's not political fluff that people who lost/sacrificed are furious that those making the rules were flaunting them.

[TobyD]

Don’t want to disrupt the Ukraine thread, but really needed to say fuck Boris Johnson and the pure shite that comes out of his mouth.

I'd usually naturally recoil from abusing politicians rather than strongly criticising them. However, in this case I'd totally agree with the above.

This was an unutterably stupid and crass thing to say, and less there be any doubt, Johnson's mind is never on Ukrainians, or even our national interest, it's operation save big dog all the way for him, he's an unpleasant person and totally unfit to be prime minister.

[TobyD]

Don’t want to disrupt the Ukraine thread, but really needed to say fuck Boris Johnson and the pure shite that comes out of his mouth.

Can we add Mogg?

The distain for the rest of us when he speaks is palpable. It's not political fluff that people who lost/sacrificed are furious that those making the rules were flaunting them.

Yes, he supports Johnson because he'd never be anywhere near the cabinet if anyone else was PM, because he's really not good at anything, and displays no sign of intelligence.

[teestub]

The Brexit bit was obviously totally ridiculous, but I was almost as astounded by the bit where he tried to pretend he was making a stand against tyranny, when he was literally just back from Saudi Arabia begging for more oil!

[BrutusTheBear]

Talk of 'evil' dictatorships, oligarchs and such, got me thinking how we are so blindly led to believe that somehow we have moral superiority?

A country where it easy enough and more cost effective to illegally fire 800 workers to be replaced with heavily exploited agency staff, that has illegally gone to war (and killed large numbers of civilians), that will do business with human rights abusers and sell arms to the very worst of humanity, that systematically abuses it's disabled citizens, that strip searches under 12s on school premises, that harbours institutional racism, where wealth is systematically extracted through government to a wealthy elite that store their riches offshore (if their Russian their called oligarchs!), that presides over outrageous levels of child poverty whilst being one of the richest economies in the world.

The list goes on and on and on, you need some seriously heavy rose tinted spectacles to gloss over all this shite. It's easy to blame one man, Boris Johnson but he is surrounded by the same ilk and there is effectively blood on the hands of the majority of our 'political class' whom have allowed this neoliberal nightmare to evolve over the last 40+ years.  Sure we can put the evil label on Putin but what does that make our leaders?

Solidarity with exploited workers globally and solidarity with the sons and daughters that are sent to kill each other. What a mess.

[mrjonathanr]

Well, it’s tempting to look at things from a national perspective. However, in some respects, a supranational perspective is more coherent. The reason why kleptocratic Russians are welcomed at the highest levels of British society is that those who do welcome them (not all, obviously) are similarly motivated. They have similar values and views. In other words, they see them as peers, not foreigners. The social orders beneath them are the true foreigners in this picture.

[BrutusTheBear]

 Couldn't agree more JR. I am sure 'they' will all do very well out of this situation too

[mrjonathanr]

I doubt the top kleptocrats will, they can't hide. The minor oligarchs will be all right. The gov will do a few performative seizures of yachts and items of unexplained wealth. Really, it's the legislation around offshore wealth and shell companies which will determine everything. I don't anticipate much change there

[SA Chris]

Assume you've seen this, it was certainly educational to me (assuming it's true). Enlightening, although I found the format of the presentation a bit irritating,

[Oldmanmatt]

I doubt the top kleptocrats will, they can't hide. The minor oligarchs will be all right. The gov will do a few performative seizures of yachts and items of unexplained wealth. Really, it's the legislation around offshore wealth and shell companies which will determine everything. I don't anticipate much change there

Actually, what has happened is already significant and unprecedented.
The Swiss and Monaco government’s responses are monumental as is the seizure of the yachts.
Those yachts were not “owned” by the Oligarchs we all know “own” them. They were listed as a company asset, of a limited company, formed in the Cayman Islands and registered as a Foreign Maritime Entity in Gibraltar. However, the Cayman company, would have been a wholly owned subsidiary of another ltd company formed in the BVI, which in turn is majority owned by a Bermuda ltd company, which is owned by… and so on.
Each juridiction has strict rules about Director and Shareholders confidentiality.
This makes proving beneficial ownership very, very, difficult.
Something that has a lot less to do with taxation, than it does with liability. Imagine the cost implications of sticking one of those Mega Yachts through the side of an Ultra Large Crude Carrier and destroying the environment for many thousands of KM² around.

Most high value assets, houses included, are held in this fashion. I mean, these things come into play for divorce settlements and a million other reasons. It’s significant that the EU has been working to remove those barriers and make the proving of “Beneficial Ownership” much simpler, for the last couple of decades; whilst the UK government resisted (personally, I’m certain it played into the Brexit campaign. Brits and Brit citizens, own a lot of assets in this fashion).

Edit: the countries and jurisdictions I used above, were picked at random and not meant to be specific for any one instance. There is a long list of such jurisdictions and the list can be recursive. Even individual US states can be involved (Delaware was a favorite I have used, personally, when an owner specifically wanted the Stars and Stripes on his vessel’s stern).

[petejh]

If you think the UK is bad for dirty Russian money hidden behind shell companies, you'd baulk at the hidden wealth of the UK's army of self-employed rope access grit-blasters maintaining the paintwork of North Sea rigs. These guys make Abramovich look restrained. Replace megayacht and Belgravia apartment with BMW M3, a jet-ski and a portfolio of BTLs. I'm joking of course but the process is similar, perhaps without the BVI shell of a shell of a shell although I wouldn't be surprised with some of the characters I've met. Still waiting for the day Newacstle Utd is bought by a sole trader painter-blaster.

[SA Chris]

Try a sat diving welder. License to print it.

[Oldmanmatt]

If you think the UK is bad for dirty Russian money hidden behind shell companies, you'd baulk at the hidden wealth of the UK's army of self-employed rope access grit-blasters maintaining the paintwork of North Sea rigs. These guys make Abramovich look restrained. Replace megayacht and Belgravia apartment with BMW M3, a jet-ski and a portfolio of BTLs. I'm joking of course but the process is similar, perhaps without the BVI shell of a shell of a shell although I wouldn't be surprised with some of the characters I've met. Still waiting for the day Newacstle Utd is bought by a sole trader painter-blaster.

It’s very easy to do and cheap. Problem then is spending it here, as sooner or later you have to prove where it came from. Being employed by an offshore company and then paying income tax in the home of that company, being the safest. It’s the greedy that try to skip all taxation that end up screwed. Luxembourg used to be a “2%” income tax haven. Haven’t looked at it for over a decade, so no idea. You used to have to rent a business address in Lux (basically a telephone answering gig) which used to cost a couple hundred a year. Less than €200 to register a company. Gibraltar used to have off the shelf “business partners”, so you could show an X% local shareholder etc. It’s definitely not just for the super rich.

[BrutusTheBear]

Major banks, big business, savvy individuals with the means, governments around the globe, a failure by the MSM to report and pursue...  There are so many organisations and people complicit in this racquet but but Russia bad, us good.  There's nothing we can do about it and if we change the law they'll find another loophole so why bother heh?
I would love to talk more about this but there is a war going on, I need to read up on the latest developments, be in touch with what the experts are saying might happen next so I can play armchair General for 6 months or so until the next thing comes along. 

[teestub]

… a failure by the MSM to report and pursue... 

The coverage of the Pandora Papers was pretty widespread?

[BrutusTheBear]

… a failure by the MSM to report and pursue... 

The coverage of the Pandora Papers was pretty widespread?

And the results of the 'widespread' coverage were? Failure to pursue!
It's very similar to 'partygate' if you can get it out of the news cycle people will forget about it soon enough, wasn't there going to be some prosecutions or something? Nevermind.. WAR! 
Good investigative journalism is a dying profession within the MSM why is that?
Ignore me I'm a 'conspiracy theorist' the MSM is full bore behind investigative journalism that consistently reveals the global corruption going on.  As you were. 

[Oldmanmatt]

Major banks, big business, savvy individuals with the means, governments around the globe, a failure by the MSM to report and pursue...  There are so many organisations and people complicit in this racquet but but Russia bad, us good.  There's nothing we can do about it and if we change the law they'll find another loophole so why bother heh?
I would love to talk more about this but there is a war going on, I need to read up on the latest developments, be in touch with what the experts are saying might happen next so I can play armchair General for 6 months or so until the next thing comes along.

Oh, I don’t know, it’s probably not that bad. I mean, we have one forum “Armchair General” out on the boarder helping with the refugee effort and I’m sitting here waiting for marching orders to go dodge Russian Torpedoes on the Argus or a Bay class (casualty receiving ships, with full hospital facilities, without the protection of “Hospital ship” status (so that they can actually enter conflict zones, which hospital ships cannot. One of which is just back from six months supporting the Ebola crisis)) because non-combatant and refugee evacuation is one of their main roles and about 45% of our training time.

You can certainly argue that Britain could do more and I’m pretty sure the “Lads and Lasses” in green and blue, would be all over a role in “International Rescue”, with minimal bangs and booms. FAB Brains!

However, you would be hard put to find a nation that did more. The fact that we* retain a “Civvi until activated” status, specifically so we can more easily access disaster zones, despite the headaches that splitting the Naval service into three arms, entails, should indicate that the “Nation” (if not the Government de juré) takes it seriously.

Anyway, the EU were trying hard to iron out some of those “loopholes” and I’m pretty sure that’s the motivation behind the likes of Mogg and Johnson’s Brexit stance.

But, it’s not really representative of “Britain”. A place that has a lot of faults, but a lot of hopeful ideals too. For one, you can write your thoughts here and the worst consequence would be someone calling you names. No “standard issue” kicking in your door. In fact, you could run for PM, should your vision capture enough imaginations.


*The Royal Fleet Auxiliary, nobody seems to know we exist or, if they do, think we just drive tankers to fill up Warships.

[danm]

The strategy of the current government seems to be that if you constantly have a new scandal ready-baked for deployment, you can simply allow it to become public and wait for the previous scandal to become old news. This keeps their media sponsors happy as they have plenty of content, whilst the public become so desensitised to scandal and appalling standards of behaviour including bare faced lies that it soon become normalised.

By way of example, ask the average punter about the following and see if they even register: Windrush, illegal proroguing of Parliament, Priti Patel's illegal discussions with Israel..... I could go on but you get the gist. I've no doubt Johnson made his Ukraine=Brexit speech purely to distract from the questions around the attendees at his fundraising dinner held at the time the invasion was reported, and to reopen old wounds to ensure that if any awkward questions are raised about where the funding for the Leave campaign actually came from, they are dismissed as being sour grapes "you lost, deal with it snowflake" yada yada yada.

Let's be clear, Brexit is a done deal, but we should never again allow a hostile power to manipulate us in that way again. The problem for the Tories is that it is going to be hard for them to make these changes without admitting that they have profited from (not the same as being complicit in) something which could be argued was close to treason.

[BrutusTheBear]

'Armchair General' OMM not a slight at you or anyone else for that matter just an observation on how we can all become engaged and entwined in whatever narrative is going on at present.  We were armchair virologists not so long ago.  (Incidentally, I am currently not working at school due to having COVID myself, a large number of pupils and staff off, it's rife everywhere, not much been said about it though).

Yes, yes.  We can say what we want without the savage repercussions of other countries. I can also freely tell you that the University of York conducted a study on austerity that found that the joint impact of cuts to healthcare, public health and social care since 2010 found that the cuts were linked to 57,550 more deaths than would have been expected between 2010 and 2014.  The majority of these deaths being the vulnerable and disabled members of our society.  Of course it's easy to pretend that this violence towards our own population doesn't exist because it's not as blatant as 'kicking in your door' and many of us don't directly experience it.  My family has direct experience of this state funded, private profit driven, stealth violence and I can tell you that it is sadistically vicious.  We didn't round these people up and bump them off but they're gone nonetheless.  Hopeful ideals or not their voices won't be heard. 
 

[Will Hunt]

I don't think you'll find many people disagreeing with you that our society has a huge number of flaws, and there's no shortage of people here who are deeply dissatisfied with the government. That's putting it very lightly.

To equate our failings with that of the Russian government is to lack any sense of proportion. We might be bad in many ways but we are orders of magnitude less bad than Putin's state.

By all means rail against all that our society has done which is bad, but if that's all you've got to say when the topic of conversation is a state so brazen and gratuitous in its evil then you're going to leave a lot of people cold.

[BrutusTheBear]

By all means rail against all that our society has done which is bad, but if that's all you've got to say when the topic of conversation is a state so brazen and gratuitous in its evil then you're going to leave a lot of people cold.

Killing 56k people over 4 years is evil would you not agree? Should be described as a bit more than a flaw in my view.
Many of the brazen things Russian government has done ours has also done.  I mean we could do a bar chart or something to quantify and compare but I think you're missing the point.  I'm not equating, I'm pointing out how shitty leadership and those with power across the majority of countries are.  It's not a black and white thing.
Is this not a bit like saying well I may have done some bad things but then someone else has done way worse so please don't point them out to me because they're the topic of conversation not me?  Is it not OK to discuss the wrong doings of the people we pay to govern us?

I must come across as right miserable cvnt on here   I mean I do like a good rant and I don't really sit in the comfortable position of being able to agree with mainstream narratives so much which can be hard work/ frustrating at times.  I know other people hold similar views but perhaps can't be arsed to air them because you just get shut down or feel like a lone voice.  TBH I'm waiting for someone to tell me if I don't like it move somewhere else   I love the country, I just wish we could do much much better for our own and for the rest of the world. 

The Russian government led by Putin has conducted an illegal invasion of Ukraine a lot of people on both sides are going to die, that's really bad an act of evil in fact.  ANY consequence of a government's actions that is resultant in people dying is really bad, an act of evil in fact.  How's that for you?

I'm off to do a jigsaw puzzle for a bit.
(edited for grammar - probably not well enough!)

[Oldmanmatt]

By all means rail against all that our society has done which is bad, but if that's all you've got to say when the topic of conversation is a state so brazen and gratuitous in its evil then you're going to leave a lot of people cold.

Killing 56k people over 4 years is evil would you not agree? Should be described as a bit more than a flaw in my view.
Many of the brazen things Russian government has done ours has also done.  I mean we could do a bar chart or something to quantify and compare but I think you're missing the point.  I'm not equating, I'm pointing out how shitty leadership and those with power across the majority of countries are.  It's not a black and white thing.
Is this not a bit like saying well I may have done some bad things but then someone else has done way worse so please don't point them out to me because they're the topic of conversation not me?  Is it not OK to discuss the wrong doings of the people we pay to govern us?

I must come across as right miserable cvnt on here   I mean I do like a good rant and I don't really sit in the comfortable position of being able to agree with mainstream narratives so much which can be hard work/ frustrating at times.  I know other people hold similar views but perhaps can't be arsed to air them because you just get shut down or feel like a lone voice.  TBH I'm waiting for someone to tell me if I don't like it move somewhere else   I love the country, I just wish we could do much much better for our own and for the rest of the world. 

The Russian government led by Putin has conducted an illegal invasion of Ukraine a lot of people on both sides are going to die, that's really bad an act of evil in fact.  ANY consequence of a government's actions that is resultant in people dying is really bad, an act of evil in fact.  How's that for you?

I'm off to do a jigsaw puzzle for a bit.
(edited for grammar - probably not well enough!)

I hadn’t thought of it as a slight, it was more a “try to look for the positives in the bleak” kinda thing.
People, have been fucking over other people, as long as there have been people. Mostly it’s “unintentional” or, at least, without direct malice. Ignorance, ideology and religion being the biggest evils in humanity.
For instance, thousands of people suffer and die, unnecessarily from cancers, because they believe Black Salve or beetroot shakes will cure them. Idiotically clinging to ideology, long after empirical evidence proves it false, has plagued our people, society, governments and political movements; forever.
Frankly, the number you quote is low in comparison to the excess Covid deaths from that type of thinking.

This isn’t to condone such things, merely an observation. However, actually facing the brutality of the most banal lack of insight, from the vast majority of humans, day in, day out; is somewhat overwhelming.
Find the good, move it forward as best you can, hope you’re not one of the bad guys (often hard to tell until the dust settles).

[Wellsy]

I think that's a bit of a weak response tbh, no offence I can see what you mean, but still. Everyone does horrible stuff so it is what it is. Sure but also we have a moral responsibility to call that out and say its not okay, because it isn't. The current Tory government killed thousands of people through incompetence. The previous administration killed thousands through austerity. These things are wrong and mostly ignored because the people who died were the people expected to suffer and die, not upper middle class people with nice jobs.

I would absolutely back our gov over Putin but it's a crying shame that to get my support they need to be facing off against him. And even then Boris said Ukraine was like Brexit, the worthless feckless cunt.

Most of the time things like Ukraine right now highlight that actually it's not people dying that seems to garner support, its the wrong people in the wrong place dying. Yemen is okay and austerity was a necessary force, but Ukraine isn’t and the royals get national outpouring of grief when they pop it. I'm fine with that just not with how someone else's grandma in a care home can die due to Hancocks incompetence and he kept his job, or a bus full of kids in Sana'a get turned to ash and we'll support the gov who did it.

Hypocrisy. That's what these things always show.