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Politics 2020 (Read 114309 times)

colin8ll

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#1275 Re: Politics 2020
July 25, 2021, 12:15:10 pm
His lying annoys me too, but the fact that it appears to be politically effective is what really gets me. The guy acts with impunity and is happy to debase our political landscape. I agree that it needed to be called out. I doubt it will have much impact though, as like with Trump, voters have a pretty good idea of his personal shortcomings by now and therefore it's already been factored into their decision making. I think the opposition need a stronger line of attack.

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#1276 Re: Politics 2020
July 25, 2021, 06:38:52 pm
Unfortunately, I think many people would rather believe whatever fluff their sold.

What I really despised - and do in general - was the way that the deputy speaker seemed more intent on exerting her position.

Feel like sending the MP an email for standing up. It's what we need in politics.

There were reasons for the intervention - it is a debating chamber afterall - but not in that "truth needs to know it's place" kind of way.

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#1277 Re: Politics 2020
July 26, 2021, 02:17:06 pm
Unfortunately, I think many people would rather believe whatever fluff their sold.

What I really despised - and do in general - was the way that the deputy speaker seemed more intent on exerting her position.

Feel like sending the MP an email for standing up. It's what we need in politics.

There were reasons for the intervention - it is a debating chamber afterall - but not in that "truth needs to know it's place" kind of way.

Unfortunately its a standard Parliamentary rule, so the speaker had no choice. A dumb one when the lie is clear but the point  could have been worded in a way that avoided forcing the speaker's hand. Peter Oborne's website used to document each and every lie Boris made but stopped a while ago now. Anyone know anywhere else other than this?

https://costofjohnson.com/

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#1278 Re: Politics 2020
July 26, 2021, 02:32:45 pm
...the speaker had no choice...the point could have been worded in a way that avoided forcing the speaker's hand.
I presume that was the intention behind it. Johnson has been called out numerous times for 'misleading' the house to no effect. If she hadn't been kicked out it wouldn't have even been reported. Not that it got much coverage anyway.

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#1279 Re: Politics 2020
July 26, 2021, 03:29:45 pm
This is one of those historic things that hasn't changed since times were clearly a lot different - I saw somewhere a list of the things that MPs aren't allowed to call each other, which alongside "liar" included "idiot", "git" and "swine"!

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#1280 Re: Politics 2020
July 26, 2021, 07:48:42 pm
Calling someone a 'Guttersnipe' is also not allowed!
The whole system needs updating to fit modern circumstances.   The expectation is that MPs found to be lying aka 'misleading' parliament should return and correct the record ASAP.  Current government cares little about expectations.
Having seen an interview with Dawn Butler, she knew she would be removed and felt that she would use that to highlight the issue.
Imagine, in any other workplace, if you could just endlessly bullshit and there were no consequences. That's basically what our democracy has become.

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#1281 Re: Politics 2020
July 26, 2021, 08:52:37 pm
The thing is, it spills over into other workplaces. I was pretty aghast when I left the a previous job that it was normalised for people to just say things that were provably false.

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#1282 Re: Politics 2020
July 27, 2021, 09:19:56 am
Calling someone a 'Guttersnipe' is also not allowed!
The whole system needs updating to fit modern circumstances.   The expectation is that MPs found to be lying aka 'misleading' parliament should return and correct the record ASAP.  Current government cares little about expectations.
Having seen an interview with Dawn Butler, she knew she would be removed and felt that she would use that to highlight the issue.
Imagine, in any other workplace, if you could just endlessly bullshit and there were no consequences. That's basically what our democracy has become.

I agree, I think the main problem is that a lot of our system relies on the nice person principle; ie that the person in power is essentially decent.  Unfortunately the PM is what you get,  when people will also vote for boaty mcboatface.  There is a good article in the Times today by Max Hastings about why we don't get better leaders.
The speaker has repeatedly told the PM off in parliament but it doesn't come to anything,  and millions of people still really like him for reasons that I find increasingly baffling. 

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#1283 Re: Politics 2020
July 27, 2021, 10:11:41 am
The thing is, it spills over into other workplaces. I was pretty aghast when I left the a previous job that it was normalised for people to just say things that were provably false.

The same seems to be true of competence.  In my experience, a large number of NHS managers are totally incompetent,  have no clinical knowledge or understanding of the services that they then make decisions on. 

The current cabinet and PM are almost entirely without talent or obvious signs of intelligence,  indeed this is my main problem with them.
Its obvious that there will often be administrations with which you disagree,  but this lot are just not very good at their jobs. 

Meritocracy is dead?

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#1284 Re: Politics 2020
July 27, 2021, 10:48:35 am
The current cabinet and PM are almost entirely without talent or obvious signs of intelligence, indeed this is my main problem with them.
Its obvious that there will often be administrations with which you disagree, but this lot are just not very good at their jobs.
I see it differently to this. My main problem with them is not that theyíre lacking intelligence or competence (which clearly a lot of them are). Itís that Johnson is the first PM, along with his cabinet, whose motivation seems to be primarily one of self-interest. Even though I disagreed with their methods and ideology, I do think the likes of May, Cameron, Major, even Thatcher, were trying to do the best for the country and at least had a plan of how to go about it. This lot just do or say whatever they think will benefit their future prospects and thatís as far as their efforts take them.

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#1285 Re: Politics 2020
July 27, 2021, 01:42:42 pm
Iíd go a step further still. Whilst incompetence in cabinet is now rife itís not previously unheard of (remember Chris Grayling? Or Rhodes-Boyson? Or any number of previously over- promoted fools) but it creates a smokescreen for an approach mired in cynical cronyism and authoritarianism.

The appearance of incompetence is a political tool for the current incumbent of No10. It has served him well.

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#1286 Re: Politics 2020
July 27, 2021, 05:58:15 pm
Iíd go a step further still. Whilst incompetence in cabinet is now rife itís not previously unheard of (remember Chris Grayling? Or Rhodes-Boyson? Or any number of previously over- promoted fools) but it creates a smokescreen for an approach mired in cynical cronyism and authoritarianism.

The appearance of incompetence is a political tool for the current incumbent of No10. It has served him well.

I think that self interest was a prominent feature of the Cameron administration, although less blatantly than it is now. He mishandled the remain campaign to pander to his own Eurosceptic party members to try to preserve his political position, assuming he'd win anyway. He absolutely shat on his coalition partners, putting huge resources into unseating their MPs at the subsequent election. The greensill affair only underlines this aspect of his character.

But I do still think that Cameron, though foolish, had a good amount of intelligence. I'm not entirely convinced that Johnson's Homer Simpson persona is an act, I'm torn as to whether his incompetence is sheer laziness or actual lack of intelligence. I'm quite sure he doesn't understand the NI protocol, but don't know if he hasn't tried or if he kind of has, but just can't really understand it because he's thick.

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#1287 Re: Politics 2020
July 30, 2021, 09:09:25 am
Further on government incompetence,  Raab not only doesn't seem to understand how important the Dover Calais crossing is but also the location of French colonies.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/29/ministers-under-fire-putting-france-england-amber-plus-list?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

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#1288 Re: Politics 2020
August 16, 2021, 06:06:02 pm
If there was any justice in the world, a foreign secretary who buggered off on holiday abroad against the strict advice of his department during the pullout from Afghanistan and then stayed there for a week until it had all gone tits up should have been sacked. Plus ca change....

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#1289 Re: Politics 2020
August 16, 2021, 06:39:42 pm
I'm not sure the errors of absence and omission are better or worse that what Raab might come up with if were actually here!

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#1290 Re: Politics 2020
August 16, 2021, 06:44:45 pm
Biden is on holidays also. Who needs a Commander-in-chief in these times 🙄

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#1291 Re: Politics 2020
August 16, 2021, 10:24:45 pm
I'm not sure the errors of absence and omission are better or worse that what Raab might come up with if were actually here!

Accepted.  I'm entirely sure he'd have made no difference whatsoever.  Afghanistan illustrates perfectly the utter folly of Brexit and the myth of global Britain.  We're a tiny country really,  and when the US decides to act we're completely incapable of doing anything about it.
Notwithstanding,  I still think that it looks shabby for most of the cabinet to be on holiday,  maybe firing off the odd tweet. 

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#1292 Re: Politics 2020
August 16, 2021, 10:26:08 pm
Biden is on holidays also. Who needs a Commander-in-chief in these times 🙄

He just made a major speech about it however. 

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#1293 Re: Politics 2020
August 17, 2021, 12:24:24 am
Biden is on holidays also. Who needs a Commander-in-chief in these times 🙄

He just made a major speech about it however. 

That should settle that then!

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#1294 Re: Politics 2020
August 17, 2021, 08:23:46 am
Biden is on holidays also. Who needs a Commander-in-chief in these times 🙄

He just made a major speech about it however.

Saying it was all the Afghan leadership's fault - they gave up and ran away. Not the US's fault for the massive withdrawal, no siree Bob, don't blame us. Maybe another terror attack will wake him up to the reality.

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#1295 Re: Politics 2020
August 17, 2021, 09:00:31 am
Bit of a joke really. Whatever one's feelings on the withdrawal happening, the way it happened was a disaster.

Apparently when the US forces at Bagram left during the night, they switched off the power... leaving the ANA guards outside standing in the fucking darkness with no idea what was going on, and with no radio contact with the base command cos they'd all left. It took the guard posts two hours to realise that the base had been emptied and they had no back-up, no security etc.

Morale in the ANA was very low recently I wonder why.

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#1296 Re: Politics 2020
August 17, 2021, 09:13:04 am
Biden is on holidays also. Who needs a Commander-in-chief in these times 🙄

He just made a major speech about it however.

Saying it was all the Afghan leadership's fault - they gave up and ran away. Not the US's fault for the massive withdrawal, no siree Bob, don't blame us. Maybe another terror attack will wake him up to the reality.

The ball has been dropped.
Ripping off a bandaid and getting a painful, inevitable, task out of the way; is fine when itís just between you and the bandaid. Abandoning the mess you created and leaving tens of thousands of your dependents to the tender mercies of murderous religious fruitcakes, long before the weaning process is complete? Not fine.

My partial, peripheral, involvement with wounded veterans here, has been quite distressing the last three days. Even people who I thought were dealing well with their disabilities are wobbling. After all, what was the point of them losing limbs, friends and peace of mind? They feel betrayed.
The mood amongst my fiercely Democrat military friends across the Atlantic is, well, furious. The Biden administration has lost the next election. It seems highly unlikely very many veterans or active duty personnel will be supporting the Dems anytime soon.

Letís face it, leading your nation into a very public, ignominious, utter, defeat; out of simple wishful thinking, is probably not going to play out well amongst the electorate.

The similarities between Chinooks lifting people off embassy roofs in 1975 and 2021, is an image that will be hard to shake and the moment desperate people clinging to the outside of USAF C-17, were filmed plummeting to their deaths as their erstwhile protectors took flight; made 1975 seem like the off Broadway, workup version, for Bidenís 2021 Hollywood blockbuster.

Incidentally, the pilot and crew, who crammed 600+ refugees into their Globemaster, were apparently disobeying orders (at least, thatís the scuttlebutt).

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#1297 Re: Politics 2020
August 17, 2021, 09:38:07 am


The ball has been dropped.
Ripping off a bandaid and getting a painful, inevitable, task out of the way; is fine when itís just between you and the bandaid. Abandoning the mess you created and leaving tens of thousands of your dependents to the tender mercies of murderous religious fruitcakes, long before the weaning process is complete? Not fine.


That's a good way of putting it.  Although it seems to be the universal view that the US has mishandled the withdrawal,  it seems strange to exclusively blame Biden. It is after all, Trumps policy, except that he'd have done it in May instead.  I'd argue it represents a wider political failure of the powers (the UK and the US) to think about their future in foreign policy because they've been myopically obsessed with domestic politics for years,  often pouring concentration into piffling issues which governments should not be wasting their time on; Raab, for example seemed to have plenty of time to go on TV to criticise England players taking the knee, but not so much for Afghanistan. 

If he wanted to comment on football,  shouldn't we boycott the Qatar world cup,  as they also host the closest thing that the Taliban have to an official base in Doha.

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#1298 Re: Politics 2020
August 17, 2021, 10:22:44 am


The ball has been dropped.
Ripping off a bandaid and getting a painful, inevitable, task out of the way; is fine when it’s just between you and the bandaid. Abandoning the mess you created and leaving tens of thousands of your dependents to the tender mercies of murderous religious fruitcakes, long before the weaning process is complete? Not fine.


That's a good way of putting it.  Although it seems to be the universal view that the US has mishandled the withdrawal,  it seems strange to exclusively blame Biden. It is after all, Trumps policy, except that he'd have done it in May instead.  I'd argue it represents a wider political failure of the powers (the UK and the US) to think about their future in foreign policy because they've been myopically obsessed with domestic politics for years,  often pouring concentration into piffling issues which governments should not be wasting their time on; Raab, for example seemed to have plenty of time to go on TV to criticise England players taking the knee, but not so much for Afghanistan. 

If he wanted to comment on football,  shouldn't we boycott the Qatar world cup,  as they also host the closest thing that the Taliban have to an official base in Doha.

Given the policy to withdraw US presence from Afghanistan, which has been underway prior to this administration, it is Biden's execution of the final stages in which he precipitously withdrew that is under scrutiny. He stands "squarely behind" his decision. The buck stops with him on this one as commander-in-chief - there is no deflecting from this. The unfolding scenes from Afghanistan are so serious that they speak for themselves and the evitable human rights violations and humanitarian catastrophe will mark his foreign policy score card. Biden has failed here.

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#1299 Re: Politics 2020
August 17, 2021, 11:07:00 am


The ball has been dropped.
Ripping off a bandaid and getting a painful, inevitable, task out of the way; is fine when itís just between you and the bandaid. Abandoning the mess you created and leaving tens of thousands of your dependents to the tender mercies of murderous religious fruitcakes, long before the weaning process is complete? Not fine.


That's a good way of putting it.  Although it seems to be the universal view that the US has mishandled the withdrawal,  it seems strange to exclusively blame Biden. It is after all, Trumps policy, except that he'd have done it in May instead.  I'd argue it represents a wider political failure of the powers (the UK and the US) to think about their future in foreign policy because they've been myopically obsessed with domestic politics for years,  often pouring concentration into piffling issues which governments should not be wasting their time on; Raab, for example seemed to have plenty of time to go on TV to criticise England players taking the knee, but not so much for Afghanistan. 

If he wanted to comment on football,  shouldn't we boycott the Qatar world cup,  as they also host the closest thing that the Taliban have to an official base in Doha.

Given the policy to withdraw US presence from Afghanistan, which has been underway prior to this administration, it is Biden's execution of the final stages in which he precipitously withdrew that is under scrutiny. He stands "squarely behind" his decision. The buck stops with him on this one as commander-in-chief - there is no deflecting from this. The unfolding scenes from Afghanistan are so serious that they speak for themselves and the evitable human rights violations and humanitarian catastrophe will mark his foreign policy score card. Biden has failed here.

This.
Unfortunately, regardless or which side of the political spectrum you fall, there has been adequate time to mitigate any inadequacy of Trump foreign policy and given most liberally minded people are unlikely to take a sympathetic line to ďit was the the previous administrationís faultĒ type of argument, from (for instance) the current UK Tory government (even when referring to the last Tory government), trying to take that line in this case seems rather silly.
It was a ďgo/no goĒ decision that could have been countermanded upto the final seconds.

 

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