UKBouldering.com

Politics 2020 (Read 13262 times)

Somebody's Fool

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1030
  • Karma: +122/-6
#275 Re: Politics 2020
April 05, 2020, 07:26:41 am
I’m sure lots of people who were canvassed probably did have a few choice words about Corbyn. And I don’t deny his personal ratings among key demographics was a big problem.

But I reckon if questioned further on specifically why, the answers would more likely have been along the lines of terrorist sympathiser, woolly on Brexit, antisemitism, weak leader, pacifist, stroppy etc than a criticism of the policies.

The policies when polled anonymously are popular and are much more in line with a mixed economy rather than being the sort of authoritarian socialism being bandied about by some critics.

mrjonathanr

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3659
  • Karma: +151/-5
  • Getting fatter, not fitter.
#276 Re: Politics 2020
April 05, 2020, 08:34:18 am
I’m sure lots of people who were canvassed probably did have a few choice words about Corbyn. And I don’t deny his personal ratings among key demographics was a big problem.

But I reckon if questioned further on specifically why, the answers would more likely have been along the lines of terrorist sympathiser, woolly on Brexit, antisemitism, weak leader, pacifist, stroppy etc than a criticism of the policies.

The policies when polled anonymously are popular and are much more in line with a mixed economy rather than being the sort of authoritarian socialism being bandied about by some critics.

You lump ‘antisemitism’ in with vague criticisms like ‘woolly on Brexit.. weak leader’?

I fear it will take you some time to see things clearly.

galpinos

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1785
  • Karma: +73/-0
#277 Re: Politics 2020
April 05, 2020, 08:52:04 am

I voted for Nandy but happy with Starmer. I was pretty confident Starmer would get in but want Nandy to get a big role so hoped support for her in this leadership race would facilitate that.

For those disappointed at "the end of Corbynism", I really don't believe that the party will lurch to the right now. A lot of the policies were popular, there were just delivered by incompetent spokespeople (I'm looking at you Richard Burgeon) and the manifesto as a whole just looked like a wishlist without a coherent plan.

Maintaining the core manifesto, stripping out the ridiculousness (free wifi broadband etc...) and delivering it with confidence, competence and gravitas should see Labour right (fingers crossed).

Having said all that, taking over the reigns at the moment it pretty bloody difficult and how Starmer handles the impact on the Brexit negotiations (bearing in mind he is seen as trying to cancel Brexit) will set the tone for his leadership.

Interesting times.....

Somebody's Fool

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1030
  • Karma: +122/-6
#278 Re: Politics 2020
April 05, 2020, 09:00:37 am
Apologies, that wasn’t an attempt to belittle antisemitism.

Just trying to point out that while there were lots of valid reasons to not vote for Labour under Corbyn, I think the next leader should be clear about what positives can be taken from Corbyn’s time. And I think broadly speaking the policy platform is one of them.

TobyD

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2418
  • Karma: +72/-2
#279 Re: Politics 2020
April 05, 2020, 09:21:43 am

I voted for Nandy but happy with Starmer. I was pretty confident Starmer would get in but want Nandy to get a big role so hoped support for her in this leadership race would facilitate that.

Yes, I think Nandy should be a shadow minister,  as should Rosena Allen-Khan.

mrjonathanr

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3659
  • Karma: +151/-5
  • Getting fatter, not fitter.
#280 Re: Politics 2020
April 05, 2020, 09:41:24 am
No problem Somebody’s Fool, I do see the point you are making about policies.

I wouldn’t worry about Starmer fir a few reasons. Firstly, he’s the most competent leader since Brown or perhaps Blair. Corbyn and Miliband were very inadequate, albeit in very different ways. Part of that competence will be the insight and ability to hold together a broad coalition. I’d also take him at his word, fwiw.

One of the criticisms levelled at Corbyn was his factionalism. It’s the curse of Labour- a lot easier to be successful fighting factions on your own side than winning elections. I think things will be different, in a good way. I haven’t thought that since 2007.

tomtom

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 18480
  • Karma: +574/-8
#281 Re: Politics 2020
April 05, 2020, 09:44:58 am
Is Brexit now relevant?

CV has rendered / shown much of what the EU does as a bit of window dressing perhaps?

Every nation doing its own thing. Minimal co-operation. Extra-ordinary border controls. Hungary effectively a dictatorship. Trade plummeted. Migration irrelevant in a lockdown.

I can imagine some sort of post Cv EU re-organisation or restructuring... that may leave it remarkably close to what a soft brexit deal would look like?

Though perhaps in recovery the EU will pick up the reigns and come up with a multi €€ trillion recovery new deal etc...?

Just busking...

BrutusTheBear

Offline
  • ***
  • stalker
  • Posts: 273
  • Karma: +37/-3
  • The Bear formerly known as Granticus.
#282 Re: Politics 2020
April 05, 2020, 09:49:57 am
‘Kin ell unite the party they say bring everyone together..  Lots of Burgeon bashing going on from some of you here.  Times have changed we have a new leader if you want to bring the party on in a show of unity you’re going to have to let your wounds heal quick and move on comrades.  Looking backwards will do nothing but increase divisions.  There are some great policies to bring forward, there are vulnerable people needing our help and support, their are massive injustices in our society to be addressed and now we have leader that a majority believe can achieve power.  So rather than looking at individuals and calling them incompetent which is very easy to do, swallow your bitter pills with some sugar folks and let’s get some power so we can end the austerity that hits our most vulnerable, end exploitation of loopholes by the most wealthy and enable them to contribute to the society they grow wealthy from, ensure workers are paid a wage they can live on (rather than subsidises profits), fund our NHS properly, grow our youth services again, fund our schools properly, fund our social care system properly etc. etc.  Is this not what we all want?  There’s much work to be done, so let’s get on with it.  Sniping back at JC and co. does nothing!

tomtom

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 18480
  • Karma: +574/-8
#283 Re: Politics 2020
April 05, 2020, 10:06:24 am
Fair enough Brutus. But there have been five years of people being ostracised for being ‘Blairite’ - attempted candidate deselections - etc.. etc.. (let’s not fail to mention the antisemitism issues..).

Maybe some sort of Mea Culpa from those who were key players in this over the last five years would help with reconciliation?

BrutusTheBear

Offline
  • ***
  • stalker
  • Posts: 273
  • Karma: +37/-3
  • The Bear formerly known as Granticus.
#284 Re: Politics 2020
April 05, 2020, 10:15:16 am
2 sides of the same coin TT it’s Mea Culpa for everyone surely?  Time to move on.

tomtom

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 18480
  • Karma: +574/-8
#285 Re: Politics 2020
April 05, 2020, 10:42:29 am
2 sides of the same coin TT it’s Mea Culpa for everyone surely?  Time to move on.


Yeah. Though reconciliation is about enabling a bit of venting (and we’ve only done 24 hours so far!).

I’m not quite as optimistic as some I’m afraid. I think KS is the best choice at the moment - but not sure all the LP’s issues are going to suddenly heal... I’m positive - it’s a good change though. See how it all evolves.

Maybe he can bring some ideas (and leadership) to the CV issues - it’s notable since BJ was ill and Cummings is isolating how (more?) rudderless things have been.

galpinos

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1785
  • Karma: +73/-0
#286 Re: Politics 2020
April 05, 2020, 10:48:40 am

Brutus, one of my issues with the Corbyn era was the undermining of decent policies by them being faced up to the media/public by MPs who are poor media performers. That was my issue with Burgeon and by extension, Corbyn. There seemed to be an inability to see people strengths and use them appropriately. I've no idea of Burgeon's abilities as an MP, nor as a policy maker/writer but my opinion of him is forever tainted by his inability to neither articulate a policies benefits nor argue for it when faced with criticism.

It's not a case of gloating, and quite frankly the vocal members of the party on all sides have done themselves no favours with their media comments, but a frustration that we still have a Tory government, one filled with it's fair share of rogues (to put it politely) and incompetents, and have again missed the opportunity to change the path the country is taking.

The recent crisis may well change the way the population feel, even the FT seems to be more pro nationalisation.....


BrutusTheBear

Offline
  • ***
  • stalker
  • Posts: 273
  • Karma: +37/-3
  • The Bear formerly known as Granticus.
#287 Re: Politics 2020
April 05, 2020, 11:43:11 am

Brutus, one of my issues with the Corbyn era was the undermining of decent policies by them being faced up to the media/public by MPs who are poor media performers. That was my issue with Burgeon and by extension, Corbyn. There seemed to be an inability to see people strengths and use them appropriately. I've no idea of Burgeon's abilities as an MP, nor as a policy maker/writer but my opinion of him is forever tainted by his inability to neither articulate a policies benefits nor argue for it when faced with criticism.

It's not a case of gloating, and quite frankly the vocal members of the party on all sides have done themselves no favours with their media comments, but a frustration that we still have a Tory government, one filled with it's fair share of rogues (to put it politely) and incompetents, and have again missed the opportunity to change the path the country is taking.

The recent crisis may well change the way the population feel, even the FT seems to be more pro nationalisation.....


  I fully understand all the gripes and criticisms there are they don’t need re-explaining.  In response to your criticism I will point out that the media and thus public opinion was aided and abetted by the undermining done by Labour MPs, the staged resignations, the failed coups, the MPs going rogue and off message but then you’ve heard all that before haven’t you?  And we will continue to go on in ever growing and dividing circles.  All elements are angry with the behaviour and performance of others.  My point is, whilst we may all wish to vent our frustrations, there are things such as the nationalisation, that you mention, that are way more important than continuously raking over the same old shit.

galpinos

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1785
  • Karma: +73/-0
#288 Re: Politics 2020
April 05, 2020, 11:50:34 am
My point is, whilst we may all wish to vent our frustrations, there are things such as the nationalisation, that you mention, that are way more important than continuously raking over the same old shit.

I agree wholeheartedly with the above and hope that, on the back of the current coronavirus awfulness, we can make some substantial changes to society.

Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 5659
  • Karma: +278/-11
  • Bugger! 49 arrived. I Thought opted out of ageing.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
#289 Re: Politics 2020
April 05, 2020, 11:53:03 am
Now, see, I’m not of the Labour party, but...

I think I see yer problem there, Guv.

All disent and internal objection to the erstwhile leadership characterised as “Coups”, “undermining”, “staged”, etc, etc.


That’s exactly what the Momentum rhetoric sounded like in the build up to the election, to outsiders and it sounds so much like, almost Soviet, party line propaganda.

“Betray the party” this, “Betray the Leader” that.

Why not brand them “Enemies of the People” and join the Daily Fail brigade.
(Opposite end of the bridge, perhaps, but to me that bridge always seems to curve around so much the ends touch).

ali k

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 330
  • Karma: +19/-0
#290 Re: Politics 2020
April 05, 2020, 12:00:40 pm

I was pretty confident Starmer would get in but want Nandy to get a big role so hoped support for her in this leadership race would facilitate that.

Yes, I think Nandy should be a shadow minister

My money’s on Home Secretary.

Nigel

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1582
  • Karma: +134/-1
#291 Re: Politics 2020
April 05, 2020, 03:09:27 pm
My guess would be that Labour will do a lot better than current assumptions in the upcoming election so Corbyn will probably still be in place. Alternatively the present polls will be right (ha! Chinny reckon emoji) and maybe you'll get your centrist leader of the opposition for 5 years while Johnson and the gang go mad.

Me, 30th October 2019.

Well I was very wrong, so now we have Kier. Well done to him, it was a convincing victory. I voted for RLB. I knew she wouldn't win obvs but I wanted to show support for the continuity Corbyn ticket. Sorry about that  ;) But it was always about the policies rather than the man, and I wanted to see them survive.

Corbyn grew the Labour membership from 200k ish to 550k ish over his tenure. If we assume that this increase was solely the sort of Trotskite entryist or Momentum "loon" that we were led to believe then Kier has obviously won at least some of them over. I suppose the question is, have they done that because they have become converted to "centrist dads", or because they see Kier as someone who can sell the existing left leaning platform more effectively? Answers on a postcard... I'm not sure that his softly softly approach of being all things to all people thus far will quell internal dissent once his cards start getting put face up on the table, and I mean dissent from both the left *and* the right. But for the time being he has a period of grace which hopefully he will use to build the broad coalition that we are always told the labour party is. I wish him all the best, genuinely.

My near term worry for him is that the tories try to drag him into the coronavirus response in such a way that they can offload responsibility / blame for any failings. Please don't read that wrong, having Kier involved in the response would be a dream come true in terms of competence compared to the current cabinet, but he has a fine line to tread if that becomes the case...


seankenny

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 366
  • Karma: +36/-3
#292 Re: Politics 2020
April 05, 2020, 03:20:42 pm
I see Labour members are playing nicey nicey but let's get real: this attitude is inadequate for the future of the Labour Party and it's also bad politics.

For a start, a reminder that under Corbyn and his faction, some Labour officials thought it acceptable to pay a home visit to prospective members to vet them because they were Jewish. Under Corbyn we've seen decent Labour employees - people so committed to the Party they went to work for it - hounded out for their religion and treated so badly they fell into depression. They felt the issues were so serious that they brought them to public attention - remember, we're talking about people who carried on working for Labour with Corbyn as its leader - and the response of many, many decent, ordinary Labour members was basically to gaslight them.

 :sick:

We should be clear: the rot is deep. Racism has been allowed to spread, encouraged by the top and ignored or denied by many of the rank and file. Consider the hypocritical nonsense fermented by the far left: Keir Starmer is, apparently, bought by big pharma, whereas Sainted Jeremy is owned by no one despite taking money for appearing on the Iranian regime's propaganda outlets. Whatever the sins of big pharma, I'm not sure GSK have ever strung up gays from lampposts or bulldozed walls on top of adulterers, have they?

So there's a really good moral reason to clear the stables out. Corbyn let this shit flourish and many members gave him a pass for it. The party needs to clear the backlog of racism cases and expel people from the party, and preferably some high ups too. Men like Andrew Murray need to be kicked out for bringing the party into disrepute and personally I'd leak the value of Seamus Milne's pay-off to the press - Labour members shouldn't be paying large sums to incompetent but wealthy fools. I hope that Corbyn's history of encouraging terrorists and indulging racism would be enough to get him chucked out too when the EHRC report comes out, but that may be a little too much for delicate lefty sensibilities. Labour does not need reconcilliation with these people - morally it's not right, and politically we need to show the public that we are done with the far left, that they are back in their box and not coming out.

And you know who else needs to get back in their box? Labour members (and I am one again, for the moment). We know, from their actions over the past five years, that in general Labour people prefer self-indulgence and hobby politics over actually improving society through the ballot box. Corbyn's eventual failure was obvious from 2015 and it was certainly increasingly obvious over the last few years (leaders' personal ratings are a very good indicator and they were almost always bad). But Labour members either encouraged him, acquiesed or, even worse - tried to shoot down anyone who suggested Labour was making a collossal mistake. Now they prefer to blame those who raised the alarm rather than those that steered the ship onto the rocks.

So the defeat of 2019 should see the Labour membership's influence in future leadership contests stripped right back. We simply can't have a situation in which the leader of the Labour Party doesn't have the confidence of his MPs: there is a deep informational asymmetry going on here, with MPs having a better knowledge of the leader's calibre by virtue of actually working with him or her on a regular basis. Labour MPs suffer much of the fatal sentimentality of the rest of the party, for sure, but their incomes depend on getting this right, and we already know that Labour members care considerably less about electability than about personal feel good factor.

Just because things are popular with the Labour membership - 2019 manifesto, I'm looking at you - doesn't make them sacred. This was a manifesto which was less generous to the working poor than the Lib Dems' proposals. Oh yes, Jez made Labour feel good but so often the devil is in the detail - and in his last week in post put out a five point coronavirus plan which had six points... I am all for extra state involvement in parts of the economy but each step has to be rigorously examined and considered on its own merits, not given as a blanket prescription as many in the party seem to want.

I see few reasons why the Labour Party should treat the architects and supporters of the last five years of idiocy with anything other than minimal respect, unless permanent opposition has some kind of deep allure.

Will Hunt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Superworm is super-long
  • Posts: 5911
  • Karma: +425/-89
    • Unknown Stones
#293 Re: Politics 2020
April 05, 2020, 05:48:56 pm
let’s get some power

Sorry, can't resist. I thought this wasn't important?

BrutusTheBear

Offline
  • ***
  • stalker
  • Posts: 273
  • Karma: +37/-3
  • The Bear formerly known as Granticus.
#294 Re: Politics 2020
April 05, 2020, 06:31:33 pm
let’s get some power

Sorry, can't resist. I thought this wasn't important?
  Take a quote out of context to make a cheap point.  Lovely. :-*

BrutusTheBear

Offline
  • ***
  • stalker
  • Posts: 273
  • Karma: +37/-3
  • The Bear formerly known as Granticus.
#295 Re: Politics 2020
April 05, 2020, 06:33:29 pm
I’m out, not out of the party (which is no doubt what some would like)..but out of this thread.   :wave:

seankenny

Offline
  • ***
  • obsessive maniac
  • Posts: 366
  • Karma: +36/-3
#296 Re: Politics 2020
April 05, 2020, 06:59:00 pm
I’m out, not out of the party (which is no doubt what some would like)..but out of this thread.   :wave:


“Not that I lov'd Rome less, but that I lov'd Caesar more.”

 :'(

Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 5659
  • Karma: +278/-11
  • Bugger! 49 arrived. I Thought opted out of ageing.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
#297 Re: Politics 2020
April 05, 2020, 07:25:19 pm
I’m out, not out of the party (which is no doubt what some would like)..but out of this thread.   :wave:

See, I call that a shame, because I think you are an important part of the overall discussion. Being in a minority, doesn’t make you of less value , it means your input is more important.

Also, being a centrist, actually means I agree with some of your core beliefs. As many to my left, believe in a larger “chunk” of that core and so on.

Some.
Not all.

Have you considered how many read but do not comment on, this thread?

How do you know your contribution is pointless?

You have the courage to eloquently defend your position, you should be proud.

My comment on the language you used?

Shit mate, take that as coming from someone who, pretty much, always says the wrong thing, in too many words, at the wrong time.

Offwidth

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1271
  • Karma: +46/-12
    • Offwidth
#298 Re: Politics 2020
April 06, 2020, 12:34:05 pm

Offwidth

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1271
  • Karma: +46/-12
    • Offwidth
#299 Re: Politics 2020
April 06, 2020, 12:38:43 pm
I’m out, not out of the party (which is no doubt what some would like)..but out of this thread.   :wave:

I second what OMM says above... please stay.

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2020, SimplePortal