[lagerstarfish]

Not sure quite where to put this excerpt of Musa Okwonga’s reflection on his education at Eton, so here it goes. https://inews.co.uk/news/long-reads/eton-privilege-nurtured-uk-power-structures-systemic-racism-forged-952620

Thoughts on the undesirability of power contained within such a tight group of people.

I still remember the shock of arriving at university and meeting these people who had gone to such schools.

[mrjonathanr]

And of hearing, after enquiring how someone's first weekend had gone, that it had been very low key, just a few mates and a few bottles of Veuve Clicquot.

[ali k]

There’s one of the most gushingly effusive ‘critiques’ of Boris by Laura K on the BBC website today - that really she should be embarrassed about…

The article can be paraphrased as: “Yes he lies through his teeth, but in a good way like a loveable rogue”

[TobyD]

There’s one of the most gushingly effusive ‘critiques’ of Boris by Laura K on the BBC website today - that really she should be embarrassed about…

The article can be paraphrased as: “Yes he lies through his teeth, but in a good way like a loveable rogue l

ike a rogue that I'd actually quite like a highly paid media job with”
There is a strange disconnect between the reality that everyone knows that Johnson did not pay the original bills, and he and his party are scrambling to duck any responsibility, certainly not for Johnson himself.

[ali k]

There is a strange disconnect between the reality that everyone knows that Johnson did not pay the original bills, and he and his party are scrambling to duck any responsibility, certainly not for Johnson himself.

We seem to have entered a Trump-style hyper-partisan post-truth world over here quicker than I’d anticipated. Imagine what will happen when GB News kicks off...

[TobyD]

I don't think it's nearly as bad as the US situation yet. Trump's level of corruption was so much worse,  as will hopefully be investigated following the FBI investigation into Guiliani. You and very possibly I may well disagree with Andrew Neil on many things,  but he is a proper journalist.  Remember Johnson refused to be interviewed by him, and hes not afraid to ask difficult questions of both sides in politics.  We also don't have MPs who sign up to Qanon, and noone with idiotic views like Tucker Carlson who has that much influence. 
I do think that social media is helping the crazies to gain a foothold though. It really confuses me how many people will believe some bullshit on Facebook but not,  say, a government health adviser. 

[sherlock]

Came across a wonderful word last night 'kakiocacracy' (think I've got that right) which apparently means ' a nation governed by the least capable'.

[TobyD]

Came across a wonderful word last night 'kakiocacracy' (think I've got that right) which apparently means ' a nation governed by the least capable'.

Dictionary definition:

kakistocracy
/kakɪˈstɒkrəsi/
noun
government by the least suitable or competent citizens of a state.
"the danger is that this will reduce us to kakistocracy"
a state or society governed by its least suitable or competent citizens.

That's brilliant, thanks. Not a word I've encountered before.

[SA Chris]

It really confuses me how many people will believe some bullshit on Facebook but not,  say, a government health adviser.

Can't beat a bit of good old confirmation bias.

[sherlock]

Came across a wonderful word last night 'kakiocacracy' (think I've got that right) which apparently means ' a nation governed by the least capable'.

Dictionary definition:

kakistocracy
/kakɪˈstɒkrəsi/
noun
government by the least suitable or competent citizens of a state.
"the danger is that this will reduce us to kakistocracy"
a state or society governed by its least suitable or competent citizens.

That's brilliant, thanks. Not a word I've encountered before.

Yeah, sorry for the initial mis-spelling, combination of fat fingers and poor memory I suspect.
As an aside, I came across the word in 'Ducks, Newburyport' after reading comments in the books thread. Anyway off topic.

[Johnny Brown]

Not sure quite where to put this excerpt of Musa Okwonga’s reflection on his education at Eton, so here it goes. https://inews.co.uk/news/long-reads/eton-privilege-nurtured-uk-power-structures-systemic-racism-forged-952620

Thoughts on the undesirability of power contained within such a tight group of people.

I still remember the shock of arriving at university and meeting these people who had gone to such schools.

I still remember the shock of arriving at university and finding people openly shocked to be meeting people like me, and doubly shocked that they'd mostly been taught that we were cunts to a man. Thankfully not all.

Can you imagine writing that about any other sector of society in 2020? I womder how far woke people will have to be before it becomes unacceptable to be openly bigoted about people whose parents happened to have more money than theirs?

[mrjonathanr]

I like your contributions JB but this one seems wide of the mark tbh. I don’t think lagers is trotting out any social prejudice there, just reflecting on the socially narrow experiences he had had. I would hazard that is even more true now, our society seems to be growing increasingly siloed to me.

As for people from a well off background, hanging out with kids fresh out of Eton in the JCR who’d think nothing of blowing a load of dough on champers to liven up a dull afternoon was certainly an eye-opener to me, state school educated with free school meals.

Most people hold mental stereotypes but aren’t really prejudiced  it comes to real people I think. One of my best mates at Uni was from Charterhouse, simultaneously as posh and down to earth as you could like.

[Oldmanmatt]

Not sure quite where to put this excerpt of Musa Okwonga’s reflection on his education at Eton, so here it goes. https://inews.co.uk/news/long-reads/eton-privilege-nurtured-uk-power-structures-systemic-racism-forged-952620

Thoughts on the undesirability of power contained within such a tight group of people.

I still remember the shock of arriving at university and meeting these people who had gone to such schools.

I still remember the shock of arriving at university and finding people openly shocked to be meeting people like me, and doubly shocked that they'd mostly been taught that we were cunts to a man. Thankfully not all.

Can you imagine writing that about any other sector of society in 2020? I womder how far woke people will have to be before it becomes unacceptable to be openly bigoted about people whose parents happened to have more money than theirs?

Well, I get your point and I’ve know a good many privately educated people, over the years. I’ve lived with one for the last decade, for instance.

On the other hand, I don’t believe you, JB, is the “type” he’s referring to and I think I know the “type” he is meaning to infer.
I’ve certainly met the “type” who are far quicker to denigrate the state educated plebs, vocally and quite indiscriminately (they often gravitate to the military). Just like every other loosely grouped social designation/criteria, “Privately Educated” (or even “Eton Educated”) covers a full spectrum of personalities, so, you’d just not realise there was a difference if it isn’t specifically mentioned, in most cases.

A bit like Vegans.

As an aside, Polly was a middle child. Her older sister was sent to an all girls boarding school (same one as her mother and grandmother etc), however her parents “moved with the times” (1991) and she was put into a school near home, as a day boarder, so she could spend more time at home, with the Nanny (younger brother went down the same route).

They would tell you that they all struggled transitioning to the wider world as they moved in to Uni.

[mrjonathanr]

PS I think we have understood different things by lagers’ ‘such schools’. There is a world of difference between the most socially elite and the more ordinary independent schools.

[Johnny Brown]

Sorry, not supposed to have been a pop at Lagers, he is one of the nicest guys in town.

Most people hold mental stereotypes but aren’t really prejudiced it comes to real people I think

Yes, but it was a surprise to find how widely and strongly those stereotpes are held. Having spent most of my holidays working in warehouses (and of course I'd had a gap yah) it wasn't a case of meeting the real world for the first time. Yes there is full spectrum, but having to been a school at the far end of that spectrum it's still not a stereotype I really recognise. The only kids I remember drinking champagne at uni were the normally-educated wideboy hedonist types. But perhaps Eton really is in a tier of its own.

But even if it is, and back on topic, I'm not convinced the school is the root problem the media make it out to be. The problem is the link between wealth and power in this country, and removing the school wouldn't affect that a jot.

[mrjonathanr]

But even if it is, and back on topic, I'm not convinced the school is the root problem the media make it out to be. The problem is the link between wealth and power in this country, and removing the school wouldn't affect that a jot.

I think your point about inverted snobbery is a good one. I also agree that school is not in itself the issue. I would be looking for another job if I did! I posted the link because it's the narrowness of that social tier which causes problems and risks leadership by entitlement rather than talent, and look where we are now.

[spidermonkey09]

JB, what part of that Okwonga piece got you riled up? I found it an interesting and entirely uncontroversial read, but perhaps I missed something?

Also I am unconvinced that addressing the obvious link between attending Eton/Harrow/Westminster schools, among others, and political power in the UK wouldn't have positive effects. Clearly you're right that it wouldn't be a panacea but I can't see how it wouldn't be an unalloyed good thing either.

[Johnny Brown]

I didn't have an issue with the piece, it had many parallels with my experience. But Lager's comment reminded me of how much of my life ive spent hoping the subject of schooling won't come up. First world problem obvs.

I just think the schools are incidental. Not sure what you have in mind - shut the schools? Have some sort of quota? I think you'd quickly find they're just not a critical part of the problem. Look at Boris's famous school report - these personalities are not created or even encouraged at school despite the media image. The wealthy would soon find other ways for their kids to network.

[Oldmanmatt]

JB, what part of that Okwonga piece got you riled up? I found it an interesting and entirely uncontroversial read, but perhaps I missed something?

Also I am unconvinced that addressing the obvious link between attending Eton/Harrow/Westminster schools, among others, and political power in the UK wouldn't have positive effects. Clearly you're right that it wouldn't be a panacea but I can't see how it wouldn't be an unalloyed good thing either.

Easy solution.

“Service guarantees citizenship”

...

 

[TobyD]

I just think the schools are incidental. Not sure what you have in mind - shut the schools? Have some sort of quota? I think you'd quickly find they're just not a critical part of the problem. Look at Boris's famous school report - these personalities are not created or even encouraged at school despite the media image. The wealthy would soon find other ways for their kids to network.

I'm sure there are intelligent, reasonable people who went to Eton(Rory Stewart?) as well as the over promoted wealthy fools, like Boris Johnson. I went to a private school as a day pupil. I hated it at the time, and in retrospect to be honest, and I'm sure I'm pretty prejudiced about the issue for that reason. It was elitist, divisive and some pretty horrible bullying was endemic.

[Will Hunt]

Now I really want to know what school JB went to so I can figure out exactly where he stands in the poshness pecking order 

I haven't read the article; I'm not commenting on that.

I do get what JB is saying though. There is a huge amount of prejudice around what private schools are like and the sort of people who emerge from them. I've always been amazed at how many people who consider themselves progressive will quite happily talk about private schools and their pupils with an air of knowing when they are actually way off the mark. I always want to ask them if they'd talk about "people from council estates" the same way.

It may surprise people to learn that not all private schools are alike, and neither are the people who attend them. I can only guess that state educated people are not all carbon copies of each other: annual pilgrimages to all-inclusive Benidorm and a chippy tea every night.

I went to two private schools (one in Liverpool and one in Cheshire). The schools were different and their kids were very, very different. I could go on and on about it. Suffice to say that nobody stayed overnight, we didn't call each other by our surnames, the teachers (sorry, shouldn't that be masters?) didn't beat us with rulers, nobody ever got their head flushed down a toilet, and we only ever had one game of Pov Polo on the school fields where we rode around on working class people instead of horses.

[mrjonathanr]

I went to a state school. There was a boarding side. We called each other by surnames and the head had (and used) a cane.

[petejh]

Now I really want to know what school JB went to so I can figure out exactly where he stands in the poshness pecking order 

I haven't read the article; I'm not commenting on that.

I do get what JB is saying though. There is a huge amount of prejudice around what private schools are like and the sort of people who emerge from them. I've always been amazed at how many people who consider themselves progressive will quite happily talk about private schools and their pupils with an air of knowing when they are actually way off the mark. I always want to ask them if they'd talk about "people from council estates" the same way.

It may surprise people to learn that not all private schools are alike, and neither are the people who attend them. I can only guess that state educated people are not all carbon copies of each other: annual pilgrimages to all-inclusive Benidorm and a chippy tea every night.

I went to two private schools (one in Liverpool and one in Cheshire). The schools were different and their kids were very, very different. I could go on and on about it. Suffice to say that nobody stayed overnight, we didn't call each other by our surnames, the teachers (sorry, shouldn't that be masters?) didn't beat us with rulers, nobody ever got their head flushed down a toilet, and we only ever had one game of Pov Polo on the school fields where we rode around on working class people instead of horses.

Tall ex private-schoolboy in downgrading of short* plebs' problems shocker.


*presumably malnourished.

[tomtom]

Perhaps time for a thread split. As this is more about class, education, privilege and power than politics. Though its all clearly intertwined.

For me one of the key takeaways from the Okwonga article was that at Eton the past prefects chose the new prefects.

The transition of power from the chosen few to a chosen few - chosen by the chosen few.

And this seems to be a cycle that perpetuates much for those in power - including government(s) and especially the media ( https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/study-reveals-drop-in-privately-educated-journalists-at-top-of-media-over-last-five-years/ )

[Johnny Brown]

so I can figure out exactly where he stands in the poshness pecking order

Luckily for me it was the only one of the Clarendon nine anywhere near a crag.

I've always been amazed at how many people who consider themselves progressive will quite happily talk about private schools and their pupils with an air of knowing when they are actually way off the mark. I always want to ask them if they'd talk about "people from council estates" the same way.

Exactly, the hypocrisy has always amused me. But let's not forget this is the one minority least in need of equality  champions, and I hesitate to say any more on the subject lest I turn into Lawrence Fox in velcros.