[tomtom]

Meanwhile I noticed on Hancocks media rounds this morning the narrative for 500k tests per day has shifted to the 'end of the year' rather than 'end of October' which is er 5 day days away...

[TobyD]

Am I being overly sceptical in thinking that calling out special forces to do a dramatic night time raid on a boat with a few stowaways on board is a bit over the top?

Is this standard procedure? (OMM?) Or a successful attempt to get migrants back into the headlines?

The chap (not someone from the government) interviewed on the today programme this morning said that this was standard procedure. The potential security threat from an oil tanker being taken over by a group  who might wish to cause maximum damage with it would be pretty significant I'd imagine.  It may well be that they had no such intention but if it was your responsibility,  youd be pretty risk averse about the possibility,  no?

[TobyD]

Just to add to the generally poor year we're going through,  it seems (according to Ivan Rodgers, reported at the weekend) that whether we get a deal with the EU may well depend on who wins the US election. 

4 more years of Trump and a no deal? Given that its 2020, I'd say that's practically guaranteed. 

[IanP]

Just to add to the generally poor year we're going through,  it seems (according to Ivan Rodgers, reported at the weekend) that whether we get a deal with the EU may well depend on who wins the US election. 

4 more years of Trump and a no deal? Given that its 2020, I'd say that's practically guaranteed.

Saw that, it may be be my tendency to believe that even some of the worst people have a shred of decency in them but I actually found it slightly shocking that this government could be hoping for the mad orange one to get back in so that they can tell the EU to p*ss off!   More fool me 

[ali k]

The chap (not someone from the government) interviewed on the today programme this morning said that this was standard procedure. The potential security threat from an oil tanker being taken over by a group  who might wish to cause maximum damage with it would be pretty significant I'd imagine.  It may well be that they had no such intention but if it was your responsibility,  youd be pretty risk averse about the possibility,  no?

Yeh I heard that. The master of the ship had followed procedure in so much as locking crew down in a safe area and notifying Libyan authorities, who then notified British authorities. As I understood it the coastguard and police had already boarded the ship and identified them as stowaways. It’s the subsequent involvement of special forces (presumably a decision by the Home Sec and Defence Sec given that they’ve been praised over their ‘strong leadership’) that struck me as a way to turn it from a routine removal of stowaways into a headline grabbing migrant story.

Or maybe 2020 has just pushed me over the edge in my cynicism and mistrust of this govt’s motivations in all they do.

[Oldmanmatt]

Am I being overly sceptical in thinking that calling out special forces to do a dramatic night time raid on a boat with a few stowaways on board is a bit over the top?

Is this standard procedure? (OMM?) Or a successful attempt to get migrants back into the headlines?

Yes.
SOP.

There is no way of knowing the capability or likely attitudes to killing hostages (or of losing their own lives) of the hostile party. There is no way to eliminate the possibility of further hostile intent or even accidentally catastrophic repercussions. A tanker or any large vessel is potentially an horrendous weapon in the hands of the intent, or tragedy/disaster in the hands of the incompetent.
T-bone a cross channel ferry with one, or plough it into Southampton’s residential sea front and people will wonder why you didn’t use the unit especially trained to deal with such a situation...

The lads could almost have swum there (it was 29 miles from their base).
This is precisely what they are for/trained to do.
(We, the RN, provide boarding parties for raiding suspect vessels. I used to do that. Fast roping out of the ship’s Lynx or whacking a Bear Claw on a hull and scrambling up a boarding ladder from a Pacific sea boat). But, if the vessel had known combatants or likely to have such, then the task would be bumped up to the Bootnecks. They in turn, if hostages are involved, would bump it to the Squadron.

Things to note:
They deployed with standard RN air and sea assets, not the dedicated SF air support unit (7sqn RAF, these days, I think).
Nobody was hurt/killed (Jack, in overalls and ill fitting body armour, with an SA80 he fires once or twice a year at a Dan bouy, from the flight deck; is quite likely to hurt him/herself and will almost certainly let fly if actually challenged).You let the pro’s deal with it. Less drama all round.

It will be a few days before you can sort the wheat from the chaff amongst the rumours here (well, I’m actually at home right now, coz I don’t have a ship yet, but you know what I mean).

[Oldmanmatt]

The chap (not someone from the government) interviewed on the today programme this morning said that this was standard procedure. The potential security threat from an oil tanker being taken over by a group  who might wish to cause maximum damage with it would be pretty significant I'd imagine.  It may well be that they had no such intention but if it was your responsibility,  youd be pretty risk averse about the possibility,  no?

Yeh I heard that. The master of the ship had followed procedure in so much as locking crew down in a safe area and notifying Libyan authorities, who then notified British authorities. As I understood it the coastguard and police had already boarded the ship and identified them as stowaways. It’s the subsequent involvement of special forces (presumably a decision by the Home Sec and Defence Sec given that they’ve been praised over their ‘strong leadership’) that struck me as a way to turn it from a routine removal of stowaways into a headline grabbing migrant story.

Or maybe 2020 has just pushed me over the edge in my cynicism and mistrust of this govt’s motivations in all they do.

I can tell you that there were no other “authorities” on board and that direct and credible threats were made and the crew overpowered. I don’t know what weapons were in play, but the decision to bring in the Squadron, means it was escalated through all the other levels I touched on. This will not have been done lightly and the Civilian authorities actually have a much more limited ability to impose tactical decisions on the military chain of command, than you are implying. There are a number of checks and balances between political appointees and their access to tactical and strategic assets.

[Ballsofcottonwool]

Is this standard procedure? (OMM?) Or a successful attempt to get migrants back into the headlines?

totally about the headlines, the guy from the government ( conservative MP for Isle of White?) interviewed on the Today programme used the phrase "lawyer up by lunchtime" when talking about the possibility of the stowaways claiming asylum.

[Will Hunt]

Is this standard procedure? (OMM?) Or a successful attempt to get migrants back into the headlines?

totally about the headlines, the guy from the government ( conservative MP for Isle of White?) interviewed on the Today programme used the phrase "lawyer up by lunchtime" when talking about the possibility of the stowaways claiming asylum.

Did you read what OMM said? It sounds like a completely standard way of dealing with several thousand tonnes of metal and crude oil drifting around the world's busiest shipping lane. Can you imagine the potential environmental consequences if it had run aground or crashed?
If politicians are choosing to take advantage of it to push their agenda then it's likely that they're using an event that would have taken place anyway to their advantage, rather than making the event happen artificially. The media are probably keen to report it because the SBS boarding an oil tanker in the middle of night is one of the more exciting stories that's happened in the last six months.

[ali k]

Cheers OMM. Good knowledge. Sounds more a case of Patel and Wallace being given credit for something they had absolutely no involvement in then.

[petejh]

Is this standard procedure? (OMM?) Or a successful attempt to get migrants back into the headlines?

totally about the headlines, the guy from the government ( conservative MP for Isle of White?) interviewed on the Today programme used the phrase "lawyer up by lunchtime" when talking about the possibility of the stowaways claiming asylum.

Suggesting that using 'the big noisy red vehicle with the sirens and flashing blue lights' to put out a fire in, lets say, a migrant detention centre, was 'totally about the headlines' would be for the tin-foil hat brigade. Why is your suggestion not?

Do you have a suggestion for how the situation should have been better dealt with so that it didn't make headlines?

[Oldmanmatt]

Is this standard procedure? (OMM?) Or a successful attempt to get migrants back into the headlines?

totally about the headlines, the guy from the government ( conservative MP for Isle of White?) interviewed on the Today programme used the phrase "lawyer up by lunchtime" when talking about the possibility of the stowaways claiming asylum.

[petejh]

totally about the headlines, the guy from the government ( conservative MP for Isle of White?) interviewed on the Today programme used the phrase "lawyer up by lunchtime" when talking about the possibility of the stowaways claiming asylum.

It's nuts right.. It's as if the UK authorities consider preventing 228 metres and 42,000 tons of crude oil tanker becoming a danger to other shipping in one of the busiest seas in the world, or to the inhabitants and economy of Southampton, or an oil release that would devastate the environment of a large area of the south coast of Britain, is somehow more important than the rights of 7 stowaways from Nigeria to claim asylum. I'm appalled.

[teestub]

Wound Pete up so much he had to reply again!

[Oldmanmatt]

totally about the headlines, the guy from the government ( conservative MP for Isle of White?) interviewed on the Today programme used the phrase "lawyer up by lunchtime" when talking about the possibility of the stowaways claiming asylum.

It's nuts right.. It's as if the UK authorities consider preventing 228 metres and 42,000 tons of crude oil tanker becoming a danger to other shipping in one of the busiest seas in the world, or to the inhabitants and economy of Southampton, or an oil release that would devastate the environment of a large area of the south coast of Britain, is somehow more important than the rights of 7 stowaways from Nigeria to claim asylum. I'm appalled.

I think it’s funny, more than infuriating.

Mostly.

But, you have a good idea of how ridiculous the those conspiracy theories actually are. A good many people think the military are actually a well oiled, efficient, machine of precise, measured domination and  control; unthinkingly and robotically at the whim of political (short term) appointees etc etc.

When it’s really a hide bound behemoth of protocol and traditions, harder to steer than a VLCC, with no rudder, in a hurricane...

[tomtom]

I think the media splash was probably because it was something different from

(a) Covid stuff
(b) US election stuff

:D

Throw in a bit of special forces and there you go

[petejh]

Wound Pete up so much he had to reply again!

Haha, not wound up in a bad way - like Matt I find what some people will believe about the military hilarious and almost (but sadly not completely) beyond belief. Having some insight into that world it is not, as OMM accurately points out, a precision tool of government anti-migrant rhetoric.
If ballsofcottonwool was tin-foil-hatting about a topic that was more fashionable with ukb's regular columnists then he'd be getting schooled for his absurd thinking.

[teestub]

Fwiw I agree with you and Matt entirely regarding the risk posed by hijack on such a vessel.

As a slight aside I do think it’s quite interesting how regularly special forces operations do seem to end up in the papers, especially SAS missions it seems. Hopefully not too tin foil hatty, but I have wondered if the press releases these sorts of stories originate from do serve a purpose in forming a reminder to the world those units exist.

[Oldmanmatt]

Fwiw I agree with you and Matt entirely regarding the risk posed by hijack on such a vessel.

As a slight aside I do think it’s quite interesting how regularly special forces operations do seem to end up in the papers, especially SAS missions it seems. Hopefully not too tin foil hatty, but I have wondered if the press releases these sorts of stories originate from do serve a purpose in forming a reminder to the world those units exist.

It would be more surprising if they didn’t use the deterrent factor.

Like an obvious, flashing lamp lit, burglar alarm box; it’s the “Bad neighbour” principle.
It says “Hey there Perp, you might be able to beat our alarm system, but it would be way easier to go try three doors down, they don’t have an alarm”.

Compared to how busy these guys actually are, however, the reported incidents are little cherries on a pretty hefty cake...

[teestub]

Compared to how busy these guys actually are, however, the reported incidents are little cherries on a pretty hefty cake...

I imagined as much, and I’m sure the ops that get the press release treatment are the all at the more public friendly, obvious enemy end of things!

[TobyD]

Corbyn suspension: I can't see that the whips had any other choice but to do it after his effective denial that there was really a problem.  I'm sure some people think otherwise. Belligerence in the face of a totally decisive legal assessment just cannot be an intelligent response. 

[tomtom]

Corbyns response - was poor and out of touch.

Some of his supporters think it’s a set up or trap - but honestly if it were - it’s an elephant trap with big sign posts in flashing neon warning that it’s a trap.

IIRC the only other party to be found at fault by this body was th BNP

[Johnny Brown]

It was pathetic. Tone deaf and counterproductive. I gave him the benefit of the doubt many times but I think this speaks volumes of his inability to do real politics.

[ali k]

He managed to turn what should have been a day of humility into it being all about him and playing the victim. Pathetic and juvenile.

[TobyD]

Perhaps fewer people than I thought think otherwise! I think I agree with all of the responses.

Corbyns response seems analogous to being pulled over for speeding by the police and instead of saying sorry, saying "f**k off I'm the best judge of how fast it's safe to drive". It is indeed a good indication of why he really wasn't any good at leading a political party and remains an amateurish student politics style campaigner.