[mrjonathanr]

Michael Gove is a competent politician who like any human being

Whoa! This is not proven.

[TobyD]

Well I think it's really important that people engage with the facts. Everyone seems to be stuck in a fairyland where Labour will sweep to victory like '96. It simply isn't going to happen and the next election needs fighting on that basis. And the social media campaigning/ manipulation is an even bigger problem.

I completely agree. Starmer is wisely avoiding as far as I can see the tedious identity politics that Johnson is desperately trying to fight them on. He and his team seem to have a positive, collaborative approach.
Although I do generally dislike the adversial politics, it was pretty entertaining listening to Angela Rayner do PMQs, and make Johnson sound like a fool

[Offwidth]

The latest information sent out from tory HQ to supporters. I guess it was to be expected but it so resembles 1984 style propaganda it shocked me (edited slightly here to remove the user name).

"Last night I voted to protect the United Kingdom, as any Prime Minister would do.

Unfortunately, I was not joined by a single Labour or SNP MP.

Instead Labour and the SNP chose to side with the EU and their outrageous threats to carve up our Union.

Making it clear we’re the only Party willing to stand up for the United Kingdom.

Which is why  I’m asking you to stand with us today by joining our Party

Become a Member

Last year in good faith I signed the Withdrawal Agreement, believing the EU would stand by their word to be reasonable.

But regretfully, as Labour know, in recent months the EU have suggested they would go to extreme and unreasonable lengths.

Threatening to put up blockades across our own country, divide our own land and change the very economic geography of our own union.

No British Prime Minister, Government or Parliament has ever bowed to such a humiliating and offensive threat.

And I’m proud to say that legacy continued last night.

But appallingly when presented with another opportunity to stand up for the UK, Labour chose not to. Instead they buckled to the EU.

So now, faced with this unprecedented situation we must all redouble our efforts to combat Labour.

Will you step up and side with the only Party willing to protect the United Kingdom? Become a member now >>

Stand with Us

With your support I’m certain we will succeed.

Yours sincerely,

Boris Johnson"




https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/johnson_propagandist-725007

[Johnny Brown]

English National Party now innit.

[TobyD]

 For fuck sake. I know that political propaganda is as old as politics, but when did it become so common to just lie repeatedly? Is this Trump poisoning political discourse everywhere? Or that Boris lied repeatedly as a (poor) journalist? I'm sure someone suitably inclined could find examples of Labour politicians bending the truth as well, but this is so blatant it's almost like the stuff that Putin put out after the Salisbury incident: almost mocking.

[Oldmanmatt]

For fuck sake. I know that political propaganda is as old as politics, but when did it become so common to just lie repeatedly? Is this Trump poisoning political discourse everywhere? Or that Boris lied repeatedly as a (poor) journalist? I'm sure someone suitably inclined could find examples of Labour politicians bending the truth as well, but this is so blatant it's almost like the stuff that Putin put out after the Salisbury incident: almost mocking.

Even the Daily Fail, Toby Young, The Spectator, have turned on him.
The Times also tweeted out an editorial comment that he was “unfit for office” or words to that effect.
So, I don’t think it’s working.

[TobyD]

For fuck sake. I know that political propaganda is as old as politics, but when did it become so common to just lie repeatedly? Is this Trump poisoning political discourse everywhere? Or that Boris lied repeatedly as a (poor) journalist? I'm sure someone suitably inclined could find examples of Labour politicians bending the truth as well, but this is so blatant it's almost like the stuff that Putin put out after the Salisbury incident: almost mocking.

Even the Daily Fail, Toby Young, The Spectator, have turned on him.
The Times also tweeted out an editorial comment that he was “unfit for office” or words to that effect.
So, I don’t think it’s working.

The whole Times today seems to be dedicated to saying that Boris' time is up as PM; however I wouldn't be quite so sure. Libertarians are pissed off because of covid rules, lawyers are peeved about him breaking the law, but I don't think he'll go just like that. My guess is that he thinks that if he just does what Dom tells him to it'll all be okay,  and that he'll carry on with that strategy for a while. 

[sdm]

The whole Times today seems to be dedicated to saying that Boris' time is up as PM; however I wouldn't be quite so sure. Libertarians are pissed off because of covid rules, lawyers are peeved about him breaking the law, but I don't think he'll go just like that. My guess is that he thinks that if he just does what Dom tells him to it'll all be okay,  and that he'll carry on with that strategy for a while.

I think he'll be gone before the next election. But I don't think it will happen imminently.

Leave it another 12-18 months, then he can take the fall for the covid-19 response and brexit and make way for someone else to market themselves as the latest Conservative candidate for change.

[nai]

Even the Daily Fail, Toby Young, The Spectator, have turned on him.
The Times also tweeted out an editorial comment that he was “unfit for office” or words to that effect.
So, I don’t think it’s working.

The whole Times today seems to be dedicated to saying that Boris' time is up as PM

so billionaire media owners turning on him because they're not coining it in while the economy is slow.  Maybe don't like that their input is reduced with Cummings there and would prefer their own lapdog in the form of Gove.

[Offwidth]

The latest constitutional problem exposed in the government.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/20/dido-harding-appointment-corrupting-our-constitution-lord-falconer

[TobyD]

Even the Daily Fail, Toby Young, The Spectator, have turned on him.
The Times also tweeted out an editorial comment that he was “unfit for office” or words to that effect.
So, I don’t think it’s working.

The whole Times today seems to be dedicated to saying that Boris' time is up as PM

so billionaire media owners turning on him because they're not coining it in while the economy is slow.  Maybe don't like that their input is reduced with Cummings there and would prefer their own lapdog in the form of Gove.

I am emphatically not a defender of News UK, but I very much doubt it's that simple. Owners influence, but certainly don't write the newspapers. Stuff like saying the PM's days are numbered is exciting as far as news goes, it drives interest online and sells papers. They certainly have strong political bias, but are first and foremost businesses.

[James Malloch]

If this is true then it's yet another glaring example of "them and us"...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/21/no-10-denies-reports-boris-johnson-went-on-secret-italy-trip

I also wrote to my MP (Simon Fell, Conservative, Barrow-in-Furness) about the Internal Markets Bill and his position on the possibility of breaking international law. His response was essentially.

I will not support anything that breaks the law. But you would be surprised how often International law is broken, including by the UK. Voting for this bill doesn't actually break the law, it just gives us a stronger negotiating hand in the next 2-3 weeks.

Guess he's happy to break the law after all then... Even if voting the bill in didn't break the law (which depends on who you listen to), by voting in the ability to break the law amounts ot the same thing, in my opinion. You're either happy to have that option on the table, or you're not.

[mrjonathanr]

 Hansard will tell you how he voted. A lot of MPs, mine included, put power a long way before principle.

Where the Republicans lead, it seems the Conservatives now follow.

[TobyD]

If this is true then it's yet another glaring example of "them and us"...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/21/no-10-denies-reports-boris-johnson-went-on-secret-italy-trip

I also wrote to my MP (Simon Fell, Conservative, Barrow-in-Furness) about the Internal Markets Bill and his position on the possibility of breaking international law. His response was essentially.

I will not support anything that breaks the law. But you would be surprised how often International law is broken, including by the UK. Voting for this bill doesn't actually break the law, it just gives us a stronger negotiating hand in the next 2-3 weeks.

Guess he's happy to break the law after all then... Even if voting the bill in didn't break the law (which depends on who you listen to), by voting in the ability to break the law amounts ot the same thing, in my opinion. You're either happy to have that option on the table, or you're not.

The Italy story, it seems was complete rubbish.

Re international law breaking; I believe that there is precedent for this, but only where the matter is not contested. This is the bit that many conservative MPs are ignoring, as this is extremely contested. Theresa May has been extremely vocal in criticising this bill, she said today "so much for global Britain" in a speech in the Commons. Indeed.

[James Malloch]

If this is true then it's yet another glaring example of "them and us"...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/21/no-10-denies-reports-boris-johnson-went-on-secret-italy-trip

I also wrote to my MP (Simon Fell, Conservative, Barrow-in-Furness) about the Internal Markets Bill and his position on the possibility of breaking international law. His response was essentially.

I will not support anything that breaks the law. But you would be surprised how often International law is broken, including by the UK. Voting for this bill doesn't actually break the law, it just gives us a stronger negotiating hand in the next 2-3 weeks.

Guess he's happy to break the law after all then... Even if voting the bill in didn't break the law (which depends on who you listen to), by voting in the ability to break the law amounts ot the same thing, in my opinion. You're either happy to have that option on the table, or you're not.

The Italy story, it seems was complete rubbish.

Re international law breaking; I believe that there is precedent for this, but only where the matter is not contested. This is the bit that many conservative MPs are ignoring, as this is extremely contested. Theresa May has been extremely vocal in criticising this bill, she said today "so much for global Britain" in a speech in the Commons. Indeed.

Indeed, and I'm very glad (as much as I'd love another reason to hate Johnson).

I do feel a degree of pity for MPs. They work hard to build up the respect of their constituents and likely have a rose-tinted view of what they can achieve. There is also so much going on that they really aren't experts in and are being pressured (and convinced with rationale that they don't have the expertise to criticism) by their party - and there's so much going on in a short space of time they need to decide quickly. If they want to remain as an MP they need to keep their whip. It seems such a conflict of interest and wholly irresponsible practice by the puppet masters at the top.

[Johnny Brown]

They work hard to build up the respect of their constituents

Hmm. Perhaps they do sometimes. I don't remember George Osborne doing any of that when he was handed the safe seat where I grew up, despite him never having visited the place before. I don't recall anything like that from Jared O'Mara either. My belief is that electorate swing with the national winds without giving much attention to the individual they are actually voting for.

[SA Chris]

MPs no, well at least locally anyway. Our constituency is unfortunately lumped in with the wealth suburbs of Deeside, so ended up with a Tory again, although it was close. Any Bowie has never bothered responding to any correspondence with him, via email or FB.

Local Councilors are a different story, and are much better at engaging with regional and community issues.

[teestub]

Any Bowie has never bothered responding to any correspondence with him, via email or FB.

That’s pretty shit, I had assumed it was mandatory for them to respond to their constituents? Had a bit of correspondence with our MP, I’ve always emailed but his official replies have always come back on very posh parliament stationery. The stipulation was that you had to include your address in any contact so they could confirm you were a constituent.

[fatneck]

BELLENDS

[SA Chris]

sorry, that's Andy Bowie to clarify.

https://www.andrewbowie.org.uk/

Just so you can see what the smug c looks like and get annoyed too.

I've always signed letters off with my name and the town I live in, but not full address, didn't know i needed to.

If he wanted my full address to confirm, he could look it up, he always manages to get a few letters to me with my name and address on them, usually in the month or two before an election.

[Oldmanmatt]

Today Boris Johnson announced, apparently, with an entirely straight face:

"There is nothing more frustrating for the vast majority, the law-abiding majority that do comply, than the sight of a few brazenly defying the rules."

Was anybody watching?
I only read the transcript. Did he glance over his shoulder, in a vaguely Cummings type direction, at this juncture?

[largeruk]

From today's column by Marina Hyde:-

Today, British people were invited to enjoy the spectacle of Johnson shutting pubs – for an hour – and the irony of being hectored that they are “in the last chance saloon” by the very people who herded them back to the saloon and bought them half-price lunches there.

[mrjonathanr]

Today Boris Johnson announced, apparently, with an entirely straight face:

"There is nothing more frustrating for the vast majority, the law-abiding majority that do comply, than the sight of a few brazenly defying the rules."

Was anybody watching?
I only read the transcript. Did he glance over his shoulder, in a vaguely Cummings type direction, at this juncture?

Think you must have missed the bit about only breaking the law

in limited and specific ways

[TobyD]

From today's column by Marina Hyde:-

Today, British people were invited to enjoy the spectacle of Johnson shutting pubs – for an hour – and the irony of being hectored that they are “in the last chance saloon” by the very people who herded them back to the saloon and bought them half-price lunches there.

She's usually annoyed me in the past but recently her articles have made me laugh and been reasonably witty. I think it's the not-at-all repressed rage that's amusing.
I wonder how long the conservative back benchers will put up with Boris for now. The ERG lot will be fuming about the new rules, the more sensible ones are annoyed about the bill relating to the Irish trade situation, and the new ones are likely to be annoyed that all the levelling up stuff was bullshit, and shelved anyway because the next 100 years budgets have been spent on giving Dido Harding fifteen jobs.

[Nigel]

Apologies again for replying to a post on a previous page, I was away at the weekend.

...Corbyn's issues, among others were that he was more concerned with helping people in East Timor, or his own internal party politics than actually doing anything useful.  John McDonald tried to provide some balance but, it seems was often overruled by people like Karie Murphy or Seamus Milne.

I have to say I find that less convincing evidence than you do that Corbyn would have been "at least as bad as Johnson" at handling the pandemic! Unless there's more?

I know its all hypothetical so I won't labour the point, but I can say with confidence what a Corbyn-led government would not have done:

+Missed the first 5 covid COBRA meetings as he had better things to do (go on holiday / finish a book / finalise a divorce / prepare to announce a new baby)
+Spend £1Bn on PPE for the health service which hasn't been delivered. From companies such as Ayanda Capital (a personal wealth management fund, £252m), Clandeboyne Agencies (a sweet wholesaler, £107m), or Luxe Lifestyle (no employees, assets, or turnover. £25m)
+Declined to provide free school meals in holidays at the height of the first wave until shamed into it by a Premier League footballer
+Declined to waive the NHS migrant surcharge until shamed into it by everyone
+Paid millions, without tender, to companies linked to Vote Leave. Including an integral role in the NHSX app (where is it?!)
+Kept on his chief advisor after flagrantly breaking the rules and despite offering the worst defence imaginable
+Set up a TTI system run by Serco (fined by Serious Fraud Office for failures in prison outsourcing), Deloitte (an accountancy firm), and headed by the ex-CEO of a mobile phone company (as an aside this conglomerate of private companies keeps being referred to as "NHS Test and Trace" - its not)

I would also guess that a Corbyn-led government might perhaps not have chosen to divert precious government resources mid-pandemic into such things as combining DFID and the Foreign Office, reorganising the Civil Service, and getting rid of PHE. Although perhaps they would have used the cover to make their own Stalinesque changes?

The things the Tories get credit for e.g. furlough and Nightingale hospitals (I can't think of any others!) I suspect would have happened under Corbyn as lets face it they are a little leftish in nature are they not? I'm quite sure John McDonnell would have been equally as "imaginative" as Sunak and implemented a scheme used in many other countries. Although I also suspect that we would never hear the end of wailing about "how we'll pay for it" from the media if a Labour govt had done it!

And Brexit - would we still be pressing ahead with this at all costs? And also threatening to break international law into the bargain? At the cost of, according to an unnamed source of Stephen Bush, about 50% of civil service capacity?

I know the above is fighting old battles but it does relate to your wider point i.e. "that both sides in 2019 were as bad / incompetent as each other". I disagree. It presupposes that if only they were more competent then everything would be fine, which ignores the fact that ideologically the conservatives are not well equipped to deal with this crisis. Giving TTI to Serco is not managerial incompetence, its ideological. Although I do agree that this Johnson government is uniquely bad, even for the Tories, for whom the sort of grift described above is baked in. The lack of honesty, humility, learning from mistakes, and seriousness is off the scale. Equating them to Labour 2019 is, in my opinion, not correct.