[Will Hunt]

Somebody posted an article here recently which convincingly argued why it was not a good thing to hand too much decision-making power to the membership (applies to all major parties). If someone could repost that then that's my contribution to the discussion sorted 

[galpinos]

Speaking as a socialist (I guess that makes me a Corbynite),

Not in my eyes. You can be a socialist but still understand Corbyn unsuitability for the role as PM. Corbynities are those who failed to see his flaws, the very sycophants that allowed some pretty popular core policies to be lost under a pile of rubbish, scandal and poor politics, allowing so much good will from the public to evaporate.

I live in the hope that Keir's coyness in giving out policy detail is all a part of the grand 'stealth socialism' project he began when he became leader.  He is ensuring that the MSM, big business, big money etc..  believe that he won't rock their gin palaces in order to get elected.  Once in position as PM, he will reinstate his 10 pledges and unleash Corbynomics on the masses in a dramatic reversal of the tory playbook.

Realistically though, assuming the socialist group of MPs aren't all purged, they will hold a certain amount of negotiating power depending on the size of any majority.  SNP are likely to hold significant sway as well.  Meanwhile, the membership will continue to put pressure on to introduce things like PR, further nationalisation etc..

I too hope he is more to the left than he seems and that if elected pushes the nationalisation agenda as far as is politically possible. The proof is in the pudding, anything is better than the current shower though!

[BrutusTheBear]

Jeremy Corbyn has flaws.

Anything is indeed better than the show we have, a very sorry state of affairs.  It would be great to be in the position of choosing something better over something good.  Maybe one day.

Somebody posted an article here recently which convincingly argued why it was not a good thing to hand too much decision-making power to the membership (applies to all major parties). If someone could repost that then that's my contribution to the discussion sorted 

 
Is that not an argument against democratisation and for dictatorships? 
I think I could put a together a convincing argument as to why decision making should not be left to elected MPs with entrenched ideologies.  Imagine, if you will, a group of MPs elected (with thousands of votes), implementing their extreme ideologies without contemplating or considering the catastrophic impact of their decisions.

[andy popp]

Just incredible stuff now: ongoing market turmoil; criticisms from every direction, including the Fed, the IMF, and even Tory MPs; crisis BoE interventions; pension funds on the brink of immediate collapse; a Chancellor having to deny he will resign and a Prime Minister having to assert she will stand by him ... all after just three weeks in post. I'm not sure I've ever witnessed anything like it. And much, much more to come, and very soon, would be my guess.

[Moo]

I'm vaguely hopeful that she's managed to lose enough of her own mp's after this shambles to force an early election.

[shark]

Starmer pushing to recall parliament.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/keir-starmer-calls-for-recall-of-parliament-over-economic-crisis-12706923

[seankenny]

Just incredible stuff now: ongoing market turmoil; criticisms from every direction, including the Fed, the IMF, and even Tory MPs; crisis BoE interventions; pension funds on the brink of immediate collapse; a Chancellor having to deny he will resign and a Prime Minister having to assert she will stand by him ... all after just three weeks in post. I'm not sure I've ever witnessed anything like it. And much, much more to come, and very soon, would be my guess.

It is insane. Especially when you remember that for twelve days of that there was a moratorium on usual activity because the Queen died.

[seankenny]

If not to participate in decision making and be a stakeholder in the party, why are you a member paying in £5 a month then?

Because helping fund a left-wing party is good! But the idea that members should have much of a say in decision making is terrible because many Labour members are overly idealistic and not very good at thinking about policy.

[ali k]

"Not Kwarteng's fault" says govt minister 

[Bradders]

Imagine, if you will, a group of MPs elected (with thousands of votes), implementing their extreme ideologies without contemplating or considering the catastrophic impact of their decisions.

Who in this case were elected by....the party membership, reversing the choice of the parliamentary party!

[Nigel]

Who knew that the financial markets were so full of woke lefty remainer declinists?

Hate to quote myself but this was intended as an offhand comment! Some Tory supporters are actually claiming this now - they are beyond parody...

https://twitter.com/andrew_lilico/status/1574876146390503424
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/daniel-hannan-comment-conservative-home-labour-keir-starmer-government-b1028697.html
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/crispin-odey-says-remainers-are-to-blame-for-the-run-on-the-pound-335955/

[Will Hunt]

Somebody posted an article here recently which convincingly argued why it was not a good thing to hand too much decision-making power to the membership (applies to all major parties). If someone could repost that then that's my contribution to the discussion sorted 

 
Is that not an argument against democratisation and for dictatorships? 
I think I could put a together a convincing argument as to why decision making should not be left to elected MPs with entrenched ideologies.  Imagine, if you will, a group of MPs elected (with thousands of votes), implementing their extreme ideologies without contemplating or considering the catastrophic impact of their decisions.

Of course it's not an argument against democracy. I'm not sure how you've reached that conclusion. Maybe a wind up? I'm not saying members shouldn't have a say in anything, but there needs to be a balance of decision-making power between party leadership, the parliamentary party, and rank-and-file.

Anyway, here's the article, which sums up my view perfectly.

https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,30397.msg665447.html#msg665447

For Truss, it's not a good read. In each successive ballot of MPs she was 3rd (of , 3rd (of 6), 3rd (of 5), 3rd (of 4), and finally 2nd (of 3) choice. Results reminder here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Conservative_Party_leadership_election_(UK)

[Will Hunt]

Starmer pushing to recall parliament.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/keir-starmer-calls-for-recall-of-parliament-over-economic-crisis-12706923

Fuck me, if Shark is reading the non-climbing threads on this forum then we must be completely shafted!

[sdm]

I think I could put a together a convincing argument as to why decision making should not be left to elected MPs with entrenched ideologies.  Imagine, if you will, a group of MPs elected (with thousands of votes), implementing their extreme ideologies without contemplating or considering the catastrophic impact of their decisions.

The problem is that the membership (of both Labour and the Conservatives) have, on average, more extreme ideologies than either the MPs or the electorate.

It is selection by the membership that leads to leaders from the extreme wings of the parties who do not command support of either their own MPs or the electorate.

[Oldmanmatt]

I think I could put a together a convincing argument as to why decision making should not be left to elected MPs with entrenched ideologies.  Imagine, if you will, a group of MPs elected (with thousands of votes), implementing their extreme ideologies without contemplating or considering the catastrophic impact of their decisions.

The problem is that the membership (of both Labour and the Conservatives) have, on average, more extreme ideologies than either the MPs or the electorate.

It is selection by the membership that leads to leaders from the extreme wings of the parties who do not command support of either their own MPs or the electorate.

And said it many times before.

[Offwidth]

Just incredible stuff now:

Just back from climbing.....Yanis Varoufakis at 17.45 on BBC news channel was saying there is a real risk a domino effect could occur that could bring down US treasury markets.... claiming that is the real reason the IMF intervened so strongly this morning. R4 on the drive home were talking about pension funds in serious trouble until the BoE intervened earlier. Talk of potentially forced departmental budget cuts in government at a time when arguably all are operating on deficits. I wonder how many now think the way the mini budget was handled was not insane?

[mrjonathanr]

I wonder how many now think the way the mini budget was handled was not insane?

Two.

[ali k]

Latest treasury directive appears to be finding “efficiency savings”, presumably to plug into the OBR forecast in Nov so ‘the plan’ looks vaguely credible.

What the fuck is there left to cut?

[seankenny]

A hospital in Nottingham reported they were having a critical incident today with 97% occupancy and over 700 people waiting at A&E. Talk of cuts will go down like a bucket of sick if grannies are dying in hospital corridors.

[andy popp]

I wonder how many now think the way the mini budget was handled was not insane?

Two.

The handling was/is the least of it, the content was/is insane.

Not a gambling man, but I would bet we see Kwarteng sacrificed sooner rather than later.

Edit: Tory MPs openly calling for Kwarteng to be sacked. One unnamed MP quoted in the Guardian: "But I think people are seriously underpricing the chance that it’s all over, that this government is dead on arrival.”

Extraordinary.

[sdm]

I'm usually wrong on these things. But if Kwarteng stays, I don't see Truss contesting the next election.

I think there's only 2 things that could save her now:
1) ditch Kwarteng, ditch the fiscal event and enact a massive shift in policy. I don't see her doing this.
2) a massive global event that is so powerful that it overrides everything else similarly to how covid did for a year or two.

So I think the ball's in Putin's court.

[mrjonathanr]

I wonder how many now think the way the mini budget was handled was not insane?

Two.

The handling was/is the least of it, the content was/is insane.

In fairness, if the quote along the lines of 'when the British enter the workplace, they are some of the worst idlers in the world' is at all representative of the book 'Britannia Unhinged' , we can be confident their ideas are comfortably detached from reality. Anyway, empiricism's a great teacher and all that, it'll be 'interesting' to see what happens next. My bet is the hole gets dug deeper, then it collapses on the diggers. God help all the just-about-managing who get dragged into the mire.

[Nigel]

The impression I was getting from earlier this thread was that there were UKB'ers who could see the sanity in this budget?

I asked earlier how a corporation tax cut of 0% is meant to cause a quadrupling of growth to 2.5%? Especially in the teeth of a global downturn? Er...Will borrowing-to-invest in tax cuts for the top few % do it? Not according to the marxists. Sorry, markets who due to this now charge us more to borrow than Italy and Greece. The answer apparently must lie in "supply side reforms" and "spending restraint". For that code please read dispensing with planning regs and increasing immigration, amongst other things, for the first. These are not popular with the Tories' own voters. To say the least. For the second read public sector pay freezes, funding cuts etc. This is not popular with anyone after a decade of austerity and the current rate of inflation.

If they do survive the current market turmoil then the "big reveal" of all this stuff will be the end of them.

[mrjonathanr]

The impression I was getting from earlier this thread was that there were UKB'ers who could see the sanity in this budget?

I asked earlier how a corporation tax cut of 0% is meant to cause a quadrupling of growth to 2.5%?

  To my limited economic understanding, that's why the markets are jettisoning the £. KK is saying growth will balance the books but presenting no meaningful vehicle to drive growth.

[seankenny]

Yeah, what Nige said. Sure there are supply side issues in the U.K. but you’re not going to solve problems like poor transport in provincial cities or ill health impacting the labour market by cutting taxes for a few top earners.