[TobyD]

In an unremarkable Guardian article about Johnson visiting Rwanda and refusing to consider the prospect that he might one day actually have to not be PM here https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/23/boris-johnson-rules-out-crazy-idea-of-quitting-if-tories-lose-byelections?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other  is hidden this gem:


During his visit, Johnson called in at the Groupe Scolaire Kacyiru II school, on the outskirts of Kigali, which receives funding from the British government. The children clapped as the prime minister entered the first classroom, and then read him a story about an unhealthy hen.

It began: “Hetty was an unhealthy hen. She never did exercise. She slept all day. She ate lots of unhealthy food. One day, Hetty saw a poster for a hen race.”

Johnson sat on a child’s chair looking bemused as the pupils read the story.

[TobyD]

Another classic from the BBC:

We've just heard from Conservative MP Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown MP who is treasurer of the party's influential 1922 Committee of backbench MPs.

On the precarious situation his party finds itself in, Clifton-Brown tells us: "If I were to run under a bus today it would be difficult to hold my seat, there’s no doubt about that.”


No doubt indeed

[BrutusTheBear]

Nice to see 2 Conservative seats gone.  Apparently Helen Hurford 'soon to be MP' was hiding from the media/public in a dance studio at Tiverton leisure centre all evening and upon hearing the result did a runner refusing to speak to anyone.

As no-one has mentioned him on here massively impressed with the job Mick Lynch has been doing holding politicians/media/private profiteering to account in the last week.  The desperation of some of the lines of questioning is laughable.  There is an opportunity here for the shadow cabinet to seize upon public feeling, show their understanding/support for workers and make huge ground.  Seems they are too scared or beholden by the media to do this.  A spineless response from the leadership of the LABOUR Party.  A party founded by what became the RMT Union to represent workers in parliament.   

[tommytwotone]

Nice to see 2 Conservative seats gone.  Apparently Helen Hurford 'soon to be MP' was hiding from the media/public in a dance studio at Tiverton leisure centre all evening and upon hearing the result did a runner refusing to speak to anyone.

As no-one has mentioned him on here massively impressed with the job Mick Lynch has been doing holding politicians/media/private profiteering to account in the last week.  The desperation of some of the lines of questioning is laughable.  There is an opportunity here for the shadow cabinet to seize upon public feeling, show their understanding/support for workers and make huge ground.  Seems they are too scared or beholden by the media to do this.  A spineless response from the leadership of the LABOUR Party.  A party founded by what became the RMT Union to represent workers in parliament.   

Completely agree on this one Brutus, and - as many have observed - this is what happens when you get someone straight-talking, not trying to give the "media trained" answer, not trying to appeal the outcomes of a focus-grouped mythical typical x target voter profile.


In many ways (and I'm doing Mick Lynch a terrible disservice here), a lot of the above could be said of what Boris' appeal is to the Tory right-of-centre caucus.

[seankenny]

As someone who has given media training to scores of people, I’d personally say Lynch does exactly what I urge interviewees to do. He puts forward a clear, straightforward and well-constructed argument for his organisation’s policy, textbook stuff. He actually has some good lines to deal with difficult questions. A lot of the time media or public communications is the moment at which genuine policy differences in an organisation get hammered out; in a recent podcast I heard Alastair Campbell is very clear that this is the role PMQs played for Blair and his team. So to some extent what you’re seeing is the result of the RMT having a clear and well-thought out case internally. I’m not downplaying Lynch, he’s clearly a very talented communicator, but I think the reasons for his success go a bit deeper than this.

He’s also a Lexiter…   

[BrutusTheBear]

Absolutely Sean he's part of a well organised and competent union.  He represents his members interests effectively.
Conversely..

The principle is just as true in politics. It’s why our party was created by the trade unions. It’s why the Labour Party will always stand with the trade unions. And why we will always need the trade unions to stand with us.

We have an obligation to unite and to work together. If we do, we can take on this right-wing government, win the next general election, and deliver the transformational change working people so desperately need.

Keir Starmer to the TUC last year.
Proving himself to lack any substance and a liar.

[seankenny]

The RMT isn’t affiliated to the Labour Party. Surely standing together goes both ways?

[User deactivated.]

On social media, according to many people from my hometown (Doncaster), Starmer is now a scab and can't be voted for. I imagine a lot of ex-mining towns will feel the same way.

Then again, there are parts of Donny that actually voted conservative last time, so who knows:

[seankenny]

That’s a funny picture but also not actually true. Lots of places in the Red Wall should have been Tory years ago, given their demographics. A residual attachment to the Labour Party may now have been broken but that’s understandable if a lot of Red Wall voters are socially conservative, home owning pensioners. The Conservative agenda of aggression to foreigners, no meaningful development and continuing high house prices does - to some extent - meet their needs.

As for the unions, many hardcore trade unionists have disliked the Labour Party for years. Every Labour government has pissed them off! Labour is a coalition of interests that is broader than they are.

[User deactivated.]

That’s a funny picture but also not actually true. Lots of places in the Red Wall should have been Tory years ago, given their demographics. A residual attachment to the Labour Party may now have been broken but that’s understandable if a lot of Red Wall voters are socially conservative, home owning pensioners. The Conservative agenda of aggression to foreigners, no meaningful development and continuing high house prices does - to some extent - meet their needs.

As for the unions, many hardcore trade unionists have disliked the Labour Party for years. Every Labour government has pissed them off! Labour is a coalition of interests that is broader than they are.

That does help explain things, but I'm not sure if it's a residual attachment to the Labour party that's fading, or more a residual hatred of the Conservatives? Although they're only one demographic, I don't think many of the ex-miners are changing their stance - my dad was a miner and he'd be hung drawn and quartered before he voted tory!

[BrutusTheBear]

The RMT isn’t affiliated to the Labour Party. Surely standing together goes both ways?

  RMT aren't affiliated to Labour Party because it wasn't working both ways. 
Same reason others have reduced or withdrawn funding.
Going by your logic though we can expect to see Starmer and his front bench on the picket lines when inevitably one of the still affiliated unions goes on strike.  I don't think so.
Labour Party was literally founded by a workers Union to ensure workers rights were represented in Parliament.
I am sure the public would love to hear someone from the Labour front bench or Keir himself standing strong for working people.  It's open goal and a chance to stick the knife into the Conservative party further.  58% of people support the strike.  The LP leadership are either too scared to take on the media (despite being shown how easy it is to make them look foolish) or their interest lie somewhere other than the very reason the party exists.. 

[seankenny]

The RMT isn’t affiliated to the Labour Party. Surely standing together goes both ways?

  RMT aren't affiliated to Labour Party because it wasn't working both ways.  :

The RMT are anti-European, the Labour Party is pro-European. It comes as a shock to ultra purist left wingers, but those of us that are left wing but not as left as you guys also have principles.

Labour Party was literally founded by a workers Union to ensure workers rights were represented in Parliament.

The far left love historical precedent, but only when it suits them. The Labour Party has a long tradition of being pro-NATO, for example, a tradition which the far left conveniently forget about. If you’re happy to let the contingencies of the 19th century be the guiding principle of a modern centre-left party then you’re probably saying that you personally are quite comfortable under a Conservative government and prefer the delicious feelings of outrage to the messy business of winning and wielding power.

[abarro81]

I hadn't seen any of the interviews with Mick Lynch until now, but a few of them are brilliant.. the Thunderbirds one at the bottom here is particularly good https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/rmt-mick-lynch-skewers-tory-backbencher-rail-strikes_uk_62b417bde4b06594c1dfa6ab

[tommytwotone]

He’s also a Lexiter…   

I am aware of the existence / concept of "Lexit-ism" but never got to the bottom of why it was (I assume) "a thing" in the more leftier bits of the Labour movement.

Anyone care to educate me as to why?

I am assuming something about centrist technocrats.

[seankenny]

Not really my place to speak for those folks but the RMT said back in 2016 why their members should vote Leave:

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-sets-out-six-key-reasons-for-leaving-the-eu/

[abarro81]

Haha, how's that lost working out for them 

[joel182]

He’s also a Lexiter…   

I am aware of the existence / concept of "Lexit-ism" but never got to the bottom of why it was (I assume) "a thing" in the more leftier bits of the Labour movement.

Anyone care to educate me as to why?

I am assuming something about centrist technocrats.

Obviously a lot of different reasons for "Lexitism", but a significant one is that the EU places significant limits on state aid and subsidy which are incompatible with certain socialist/communist ideologies.

[seankenny]

There is another possible explanation. But I’m being polite, so I won’t say it.

My counter argument to that would be that given Brexit of nearly any form is going to make your poorer, it gives a strong incentive for government to try to claw back some of that loss of competitiveness by lowering standards and deregulation. It also puts plenty of downward pressure on wages. Given the almost inevitable nature of these changes, this makes Brexit a right wing project by definition.

[spidermonkey09]

There is another possible explanation. But I’m being polite, so I won’t say it.

There are a few ways I've tried to read this and none of them make you look good tbh. I still think Brexit was stupid but this just strikes me as lazy classism.

[seankenny]

There are plenty of posh Lexit types too, perhaps you didn’t keep a close eye on exactly the sort of people who did well in the Corbyn Labour Party. I come from the social group least likely to get a degree - a white male eligible for free school meals - and I was brought up in a single parent household by my mum who was a dinner lady. Your accusations of classism are way off the fucking mark.

[spidermonkey09]

OK.... So what did you mean then? That's how it came across to me, if that's not what you meant you could just explain what you did mean instead of taking it personally, it was meant as a discussion point rather than an accusation. I could have perhaps expanded on my post further to make that clearer.

I don't know that much about Lexit tbh, I was abroad at the time and missed a lot of the referendum buildup. It doesn't make any sense to me, hence why I'm interested in these posts...(much like TTT)

[seankenny]

OK.... So what did you mean then? That's how it came across to me, if that's not what you meant you could just explain what you did mean instead of taking it personally, it was meant as a discussion point rather than an accusation. I could have perhaps expanded on my post further to make that clearer.

I don't know that much about Lexit tbh, I was abroad at the time and missed a lot of the referendum buildup. It doesn't make any sense to me, hence why I'm interested in these posts...

Fair enough, but if you don’t want to make it personal, don’t throw around accusations like that! Aside from being a bit lazy, I can assure you that many of us from poor backgrounds grew up on household incomes way below those enjoyed by the unionised skilled and semi-skilled workers the RMT represents. (Note that I’m not angry that those workers are paid decently, rather that they are most definitely not at the bottom of the heap.)

My view of Lexit is that it was an epic misreading of what leaving the EU really meant. The state aid thing struck me as an overblown story when really we’re talking about people whose foreign policy ideas are crackpot - anti-EU and pro-Putin, this is Le Pen territory.

[spidermonkey09]

Well, we might have to agree to disagree on whether that constituted an accusation, but fine. I didnt mean any offence, it just came across that way to me and I thought it merited comment.

I think you've identified a strand of Brexitism full stop, so probably part of Lexitism as well; overblown narratives around eg state aid or money for the NHS disguising more dangerous/grimmer ideas.

None of it strikes me as being outside the bounds of polite conversation, so I'm still a bit unclear what you were trying to be polite about by avoiding saying! Unless you just mean people were duped/taken in as a synonym for being a bit dim and not realising they were being taken for a ride? Cause if so, I think that's absolutely the case but not unique to Lexitism by any stretch ; people have been a bit dim and been taken from a ride from all sorts of political starting points.

[seankenny]

Okay understood.

As for Lexit, I think it comes from a slightly different place than the regular Brexit nonsense. I don’t particularly recognise the same strain of xenophobia in Lexiters, even if I think their view of the implications of the EU/integration with foreign states are wrong.

I’m always being rude to the far left on here and decided I was going to be slightly less forthright for a change… won’t make that mistake again!

[tommytwotone]

Perhaps I worded my question badly, what I meant more was "what specifically about Brexit (or not fighting for Remain) was so fundamentally important to the left(er) cause, that siding with the ERG etc wingnuts was a better idea than, say giving the EU "10 out of 10" on national TV?