[teestub]

Another Yorkshire political appointment to be proud of 🙄🙄🙄

[Oldmanmatt]

The fucking desperation to avoid criticising the police is disgusting, tying himself in knots to find some way that it was Everard's fault, that its women's fault. These people need to be fucked off out of public life. The fact he's still in a job this evening is unbelievable, he should have been gone within the hour!

Also, like its a reasonable line of advice to say that lone women should refuse arrest. Police are so famously open to having their authority questioned after all.

As a matter of interest, do you have a working proposal for replacement of the police service/system?

My cabin mate and fellow SNCO, Allan (“Frank” to us) Grimson, used his rank and seniority to bully young sailors into going with him, so that he could rape and murder them. There were four of us that shared that cabin on HMS Westminster from 1993-1995. Four POMEAs who lived and worked together. Frank had the bunk below me. He had terrible nightmares, crying out in his sleep etc. He always blamed his sister’s drowning when he was a kid for the nightmares, said he watched it happen, but was too little to help.
Of course, turned out he’d been hunting and killing for over a decade, by then. He was eventually convicted for a few murders carried out after that time, but he is center frame for several earlier disappearances.
Pretty sure the boss gave him some good write ups at the time, possibly even described him as an asset. Definitely recommended him for promotion etc.
He was a department head, in charge of sailors as young as 16!
Should I inform the First Sea Lord that he should be resigning? Or just the various MEO’s who were his direct boss’s over the several decades of his service?
I mean, I’m pretty sure I and many others said some damn stupid things, expressions of disbelief for example, even outright denial; when it came to light. Perhaps we should all commit Hari Kari with ceremonial Wheel Spanners?
Fucking glad I never had to answer questions from a reporter, I can tell you. I mean, how would I justify not knowing that someone I was that close to, had a secret life, abusing his authority and murdering young lads?

Can you feel the eye roll through the screen?

You usually make a lot of sense, when you post, I’m usually too flippant. This is a bit much though. Should we have a law that requires a CEO to resign every time an employee commits a crime?

And…

Wasn’t it the police that caught him? Pretty quickly, compared to our Frank, incidentally.

Also…

A “Police and Crime Commissioner” is not a Policeman or a Chief Constable; they’re about as relevant as a Speed Climber at a Lead comp.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Grimson

[battery]

The fucking desperation to avoid criticising the police is disgusting, tying himself in knots to find some way that it was Everard's fault, that its women's fault. These people need to be fucked off out of public life. The fact he's still in a job this evening is unbelievable, he should have been gone within the hour!

Also, like its a reasonable line of advice to say that lone women should refuse arrest. Police are so famously open to having their authority questioned after all.

As a matter of interest, do you have a working proposal for replacement of the police service/system?

My cabin mate and fellow SNCO, Allan (“Frank” to us) Grimson, used his rank and seniority to bully young sailors into going with him, so that he could rape and murder them. There were four of us that shared that cabin on HMS Westminster from 1993-1995. Four POMEAs who lived and worked together. Frank had the bunk below me. He had terrible nightmares, crying out in his sleep etc. He always blamed his sister’s drowning when he was a kid for the nightmares, said he watched it happen, but was too little to help.
Of course, turned out he’d been hunting and killing for over a decade, by then. He was eventually convicted for a few murders carried out after that time, but he is center frame for several earlier disappearances.
Pretty sure the boss gave him some good write ups at the time, possibly even described him as an asset. Definitely recommended him for promotion etc.
He was a department head, in charge of sailors as young as 16!
Should I inform the First Sea Lord that he should be resigning? Or just the various MEO’s who were his direct boss’s over the several decades of his service?
I mean, I’m pretty sure I and many others said some damn stupid things, expressions of disbelief for example, even outright denial; when it came to light. Perhaps we should all commit Hari Kari with ceremonial Wheel Spanners?
Fucking glad I never had to answer questions from a reporter, I can tell you. I mean, how would I justify not knowing that someone I was that close to, had a secret life, abusing his authority and murdering young lads?

Can you feel the eye roll through the screen?

You usually make a lot of sense, when you post, I’m usually too flippant. This is a bit much though. Should we have a law that requires a CEO to resign every time an employee commits a crime?

And…

Wasn’t it the police that caught him? Pretty quickly, compared to our Frank, incidentally.

Also…

A “Police and Crime Commissioner” is not a Policeman or a Chief Constable; they’re about as relevant as a Speed Climber at a Lead comp.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Grimson

The fucking desperation to avoid criticising the police is disgusting, tying himself in knots to find some way that it was Everard's fault, that its women's fault. These people need to be fucked off out of public life. The fact he's still in a job this evening is unbelievable, he should have been gone within the hour!

Also, like its a reasonable line of advice to say that lone women should refuse arrest. Police are so famously open to having their authority questioned after all.

As a matter of interest, do you have a working proposal for replacement of the police service/system?

My cabin mate and fellow SNCO, Allan (“Frank” to us) Grimson, used his rank and seniority to bully young sailors into going with him, so that he could rape and murder them. There were four of us that shared that cabin on HMS Westminster from 1993-1995. Four POMEAs who lived and worked together. Frank had the bunk below me. He had terrible nightmares, crying out in his sleep etc. He always blamed his sister’s drowning when he was a kid for the nightmares, said he watched it happen, but was too little to help.
Of course, turned out he’d been hunting and killing for over a decade, by then. He was eventually convicted for a few murders carried out after that time, but he is center frame for several earlier disappearances.
Pretty sure the boss gave him some good write ups at the time, possibly even described him as an asset. Definitely recommended him for promotion etc.
He was a department head, in charge of sailors as young as 16!
Should I inform the First Sea Lord that he should be resigning? Or just the various MEO’s who were his direct boss’s over the several decades of his service?
I mean, I’m pretty sure I and many others said some damn stupid things, expressions of disbelief for example, even outright denial; when it came to light. Perhaps we should all commit Hari Kari with ceremonial Wheel Spanners?
Fucking glad I never had to answer questions from a reporter, I can tell you. I mean, how would I justify not knowing that someone I was that close to, had a secret life, abusing his authority and murdering young lads?

Can you feel the eye roll through the screen?

You usually make a lot of sense, when you post, I’m usually too flippant. This is a bit much though. Should we have a law that requires a CEO to resign every time an employee commits a crime?

And…

Wasn’t it the police that caught him? Pretty quickly, compared to our Frank, incidentally.

Also…

A “Police and Crime Commissioner” is not a Policeman or a Chief Constable; they’re about as relevant as a Speed Climber at a Lead comp.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Grimson

The police were aware of at least 2 incidents that are known for being 'starting points' for people who commit sexual offences. They did nothing. He was a member of a WhatsApp group that was sharing inappropriate content and the culture within the organisation meant that no one shut that down or reprimanded anyone for it. People commit on average 7 crimes in the run up to murder. He should never have still had his warrant card.

And rather than accepting that there were failings, that the police have systematic and deep rooted problems, police forces up and down the country (including my own local force) are issuing advice to women on how to check that the arrest is legitimate. With no recognition of the power imbalance at play, nor the threat of adding resisting arrest to the charge sheet.

And if Sarah had asked questions of the officer, do you think the outcome would have been any different? Or might it have just got violent sooner?

I'm with Spider Monkey on this one, I'm fucking livid.

The police have a serious equality, diversity and inclusion problem and there are too many people too invested and protective of it for that to change. I was hopeful when Cressida Dick was appointed but nothing has changed. Scrap the lot and start again with a fresh, independent thinking batch of people.

[Oldmanmatt]

I understand your frustrations, but it’s simply wrong.
I’m afraid “Minority Report” was a work of fiction, you can’t arrest someone for or prevent them from carrying out a crime they have yet to commit.
There was a flaw, probably an individual or small group of individuals, who didn’t see the potential seriousness of his actions. That doesn’t seem so hard to believe.
I would posit he would likely have carried out a similar act, sooner or later, regardless of his being dismissed from the force or not. Likely to even use similar tactics, since he’d probably been imagining do it from the first day he held a warrant card.
You (collectively) are angry and understandably  so. It’s still not the “fault” of the police service. Pretty sure, had the CC been aware of the WhatsApp group, or his prior behaviour, she would have acted. How many Coppers in the Met? More than any other force, I’m sure. I’ll google it in a moment.
Do you think there aren’t a whole raft of mid-rank Officers looking closely at their officers now? In every force? I mean, there are already a few who are looking at early retirement or stagnated careers (because none of them broke any laws). I know one particular wanker and erstwhile friend who was kicked out of the Met 2-3 years back for being involved in a similar messaging group and other things. Still friendly with his now ex-wife. He was a 12 year veteran, AR with DPG experience. They canned him in a heartbeat. He can’t even find security work now.
Systems screw up, the bigger the system, the bigger the screw up. I don’t believe for one moment people within are not currently paying for their mistakes. I don’t understand why you (collective “you”) expect all the big wigs to fall on their swords? Because they were unaware of what their subordinates were doing in private and the (slightly) more senior subordinates who found out, didn’t push it up the system? You know, the overworked, under staffed, department head, trying to cover their patch? Some of their staff are arseholes, with shit attitudes? Or is it just dark humour? Hard to tell sometimes.

20/20 hindsight. I’m pretty good at that myself.

Edit.

Sarah, unfortunately, never stood a chance. I probably would have cooperated too, unless I had very good grounds to suspect the “Officer” was “fake”. I think questioning single officers, without proper support, will be de facto advice from now on and forces, generally, will be looking at non-uniform deployment around that advice. I would look at it differently too, unmarked car, plain clothes, alone. Ultimately, the warrant card could have been fake, stolen etc. As could a uniform, come to that.

[webbo]

That’s all well and good Matt, however I read on another forum ( yes it’s only hearsay) that female met officers are reluctant to report any dodgy behaviour in male colleagues because the next time they up against it . They will be left to get a kicking.

[Oldmanmatt]

That’s all well and good Matt, however I read on another forum ( yes it’s only hearsay) that female met officers are reluctant to report any dodgy behaviour in male colleagues because the next time they up against it . They will be left to get a kicking.

That is hearsay, though, isn’t it. This is a situation (in varying degrees) that crops up in almost every organisation that humans dream up, from businesses, through armed forces, to churches and humanitarian charities.
If you imagine it is only females that find themselves in such situations, I have a bridge to sell you.
The weak are often the targets of bullies and “weak” is a relative term (see examples such as the US Army Ranger murdered by “colleagues” in a “Hazing” (yeah, right!) incident. Or Irish Nuns in Single Mother homes, Canadian Indigenous residential schools? The BBC?).
Humans suck.

Workplace bullying is a nightmare.

Society has a problem and there’s precious little that can be done, because it’s fundamentally part of human nature. As in, it will find a way.

Difficult to answer properly because I can’t give my full attention to this right now. Men are bastards, and they are not held accountable for their attitudes to women and weaker men. Absolutely. It’s a society wide failing. However, I can give you many examples of similar behaviour (or, equivalently bad/toxic if  of a different nature) by female protagonists.

I’ve really got to pay attention to the family right now, so I can’t fill that out enough. 

[spidermonkey09]

Lots of excuses, lots of mitigation, no actual action. Yep, that sounds exactly like what will happen. I'm perfectly willing to accept my view is prejudiced against the police in this moment. Yours is prejudiced to always give them the benefit of the doubt. If we're going to discuss this, lets start with accepting that otherwise we are talking at crossed purposes.

Also, I can't be alone in finding the whataboutery of "women do bad shit too" profoundly offensive. Talk about missing the point!

Appreciate you saying I usually talk sense but I think we might be poles apart on this one! It is not hindsight. Black people and women have been saying this about the police for many years. It can be simultaneously true that most police are decent people And that policing as an institution is not fit for purpose.

[Oldmanmatt]

Lots of excuses, lots of mitigation, no actual action. Yep, that sounds exactly like what will happen. I'm perfectly willing to accept my view is prejudiced against the police in this moment. Yours is prejudiced to always give them the benefit of the doubt. If we're going to discuss this, lets start with accepting that otherwise we are talking at crossed purposes.

Jesus, I think I strained something with that eye roll.

(That’s a joke, not a dig. I understand your point of view. Now really got to put my pad down).

[Oldmanmatt]

No Sean, it’s hearsay, even the person reported as such said so. I won’t tit for tat you. Fuck sake, I even agreed that it was a realistic scenario. It’s still hearsay whether you like the fact or not. So, that was simply twatish of you, because I’m not condoning it.
If you can’t riposte probably or read what I wrote properly, go do one. Because if you think I was condoning such actions or situations you are very, very mistaken. The fact of the status of such reporting is unchanged by my feelings regarding the situation. I did not say that it was not happening.

Fuck, you can’t talk to people about these things without being bullied by pitchfork waving, torch carriers, waiting for the slightest grammatical slip or opening for wilful misunderstanding.
Sooo glad I dipped back in before going to bed.

Yes, Sean, I mean you.

Lovely.

Punter people for stating a fact because it doesn’t match your opinion? Single out a small part, a sentence and ignore the rest. Wow.

[seankenny]

You are of course entirely correct, so I’ve puntered you properly. Be careful what you wish for etc, etc.

I’ll reply fully when I have the time.

[Oldmanmatt]

You are of course entirely correct, so I’ve puntered you properly. Be careful what you wish for etc, etc.

I’ll reply fully when I have the time.

Entirely wrong and you are free to do as you please. I apologise for not being sufficiently in line with your reasoning.
However, I really don’t care that the truth offends you. It remains the truth.
If you persist in bullying for difference of view point, without being able to point to a factually incorrect statement, then you are really rather weak and simply hiding behind your keyboard.

I also did not say “Frightened women = Hearsay” or anything like it.

That is an outright lie and deliberately disingenuous of you.

You have certainly lost any respect I had for you.

Incidentally, this is exactly why the forum struggles with retaining participants who are not politically “woke” enough.
I have not denigrated women or their difficulties in anyway, I have specifically acknowledged it.

No, Sean you are a bully, simply trying to silence anybody not exactly in tune with your personal views.

This, is the Labour party in microcosm.
Brutus, the above exchange will suffice to answer your question from a few days ago:

The Labour party:

 As a member, you must enjoy your bubble, fruitlessly wave your arms in the air in protest at every slight and achieve nothing by simply failing to acknowledge the difficult realities of the world. Don’t forget to chase off anybody who doesn’t fully subscribe to your bubble and brand them heretics.

A bit like some people on this forum.

Oh, I’ll fight off conspiracy dealing, individual attacking and generally unpleasant trolls. But this? Shameful.

Anyway, no more to be said, so I cede the bubble to you.
Tom was right. A very toxic place of late.

[ali k]

OMM - I think this is a pretty emotive subject however you feel about it so please don’t lose sight of how that can run away on an Internet forum. FWIW I’m somewhere between yours and Sean/SM’s positions on this so valued all inputs.

I support Labour despite all its faults but I don’t agree with Brutus, and the Guardian pisses me off something rotten a lot of days. I don’t think it’s quite as much of a “woke” bubble as it might feel sometimes. Hope we don’t lose your contributions.

[TobyD]

I think Matt has a good point about heads of organisations being held to account; sure, accountability is extremely important but sacking people repeatedly every time theres a failure surely just discards valuable experience and expertise,  and discounts the idea of being able to learn?

If Cressida Dick had known about the specific incidents and not acted, that would be different,  but as far as I know that wasn't the case.  Its natural to want to apportion blame after a tragedy but not always a good way to stop it happening again. 

[TobyD]

Incidentally, this is exactly why the forum struggles with retaining participants who are not politically “woke” enough.
I have not denigrated women or their difficulties in anyway, I have specifically acknowledged it.

...
Tom was right. A very toxic place of late.

That would be a sad state of affairs, here or anywhere in wider culture.  The whole concept of woke as its understood by the small c conservative part of the UK is primarily dreamed up by right wing commentators and political policy makers who are trying to find a way to prolong and expand the division that Brexit highlighted and which has proved so advantageous to the Conservative party. 
I'm aware of its original meaning and importance in the campaign for racial equality,  but its almost entirely changed in this country and been devalued as its been weaponised into a petty derogatory term.

[Oldmanmatt]

Incidentally, this is exactly why the forum struggles with retaining participants who are not politically “woke” enough.
I have not denigrated women or their difficulties in anyway, I have specifically acknowledged it.

...
Tom was right. A very toxic place of late.

That would be a sad state of affairs, here or anywhere in wider culture.  The whole concept of woke as its understood by the small c conservative part of the UK is primarily dreamed up by right wing commentators and political policy makers who are trying to find a way to prolong and expand the division that Brexit highlighted and which has proved so advantageous to the Conservative party. 
I'm aware of its original meaning and importance in the campaign for racial equality,  but its almost entirely changed in this country and been devalued as its been weaponised into a petty derogatory term.

Agreed, but I recognise the syndrome “woke” has come to describe to many people; even as I recognise it’s misuses and weaponisation by others. That would be why I put it in inverted commas. 
I have only tried to counter that which appeared to be an overly emotional reaction, that seemed illogically extreme. Akin to lynch mob mentality, if you will.
Societal change is not accomplished overnight (frankly the existence of Cressida, in that role, would have been unthinkable thirty years ago. Hoped for, but not really expected that soon). Seems a bit of an unreasonable burden to place on an individual, undoing centuries of ingrained behaviour, in the middle of deep, angry, backlash from a vocal and reactionary section of the population. Hardly a small portion, either.

PCC’s, by the way, are not much more than political sinécure, a useful place to put people owed favours (or their relatives) and more than a few will be bumbling idiots, palmed off to be seen and not heard. MP’s in safe seats, aren’t much better.  Certainly something that should be protested and changed. All things that will not change without PR.

[spidermonkey09]

Hang on. Passing over the back and forth about a few punter points ( ) ...

There is a lot to discuss here but a few major points. Firstly, accountability vis a vis Cressida Dick. Context is everything; if she had been a recent appointment, then calling for her resignation would clearly be premature. As it is, she's been in post for 4 years, and her period in charge has been marked by accusations of institutional racism, institutional corruption and non-cooperation with an independent report (Daniel Morgan) institutional misogyny and now a serving Met officer found guilty of murder. I'm interested in anyone who thinks she is doing a good job (please show working!) and why they think she is the person to oversee change. To my mind its abundantly clear she isn't the right person.

OMM's posts seem to suggest that the problem is one of humankind/society, that nothing can be done and so its fruitless to try; essentially throwing ones hands up in the air and saying the problem is insurmountable. I basically don't think this is the place to start so perhaps ne'er the twain shall meet. The problem (in this case sexism and misogyny) is obviously societal; but by definition that means the problem is part of our societal structures, such as the police, government and legal systems. In saying this I am *not* saying that all police officers are murderers; this should go without saying. However, all police are operating within a system which minimises crimes against women, that places the onus on women to protect themselves rather than men to stop attacking them. I personally also think that too many police officers are drawn from a section of society that likes having authority over people and reacts poorly to having that authority questioned. I also think that the police consistently lie to cover their backs and close ranks to prevent their actions being open to scrutiny. Stories from women and the black community have testified to this for so long frankly I don't think its up for debate. OMM may disagree, from memory I think he does from previous discussions on this topic. If so I'd be interested in what the alternative explanation is.

I say again, it is not hindsight to point this out. People have been saying it for a very long time.

Re the 'woke' reference, I just think thats rubbish. As Toby points out, the use of the word as a pejorative is straight out of the Mail/GB News playbook. Don't fall into that trap. Me criticising the police is not a personal slight on anyone or their worldview and I'm not waving a pitchfork and seeking to 'cancel' you. I'm perfectly aware of the difficult realities of the world; I just think that these realities are not responsible for the failings of the police.

Battery's response below was far more considered than mine and I'm yet to read anything that contradicts her conclusions (edited below for clarity). If policing as an institution *is* fit for purpose then it needs to prove it by doing a whole lot better than the examples below. It shows a profound lack of engagement with the problem and betrays a defensive attitude.

Rather than accepting that there were failings, that the police have systematic and deep rooted problems, police forces up and down the country (including my own local force) are issuing advice to women on how to check that the arrest is legitimate. With no recognition of the power imbalance at play, nor the threat of adding resisting arrest to the charge sheet.

The police have a serious equality, diversity and inclusion problem and there are too many people too invested and protective of it for that to change.

[Oldmanmatt]

Lots of excuses, lots of mitigation, no actual action. Yep, that sounds exactly like what will happen. I'm perfectly willing to accept my view is prejudiced against the police in this moment. Yours is prejudiced to always give them the benefit of the doubt. If we're going to discuss this, lets start with accepting that otherwise we are talking at crossed purposes.

Also, I can't be alone in finding the whataboutery of "women do bad shit too" profoundly offensive. Talk about missing the point!

Appreciate you saying I usually talk sense but I think we might be poles apart on this one! It is not hindsight. Black people and women have been saying this about the police for many years. It can be simultaneously true that most police are decent people And that policing as an institution is not fit for purpose.

Look, to be more specific.

The “what aboutery” part of this statement. No, I entire disagree, for good, experience based reasons.

Becoming overly specific in the treatment of what is (to me, at least) clearly a much broader issue, simply increases the marginalisation of every other group encountering similar issues.
The heart of the issue, is that some humans can, will, do and will continue to, abuse any little authority (or great) to bully those that they can. Bullying covers a pretty broad spectrum of unpleasantness from snide looks to murder, in that sentence. Dismissing the greater part of the problem doesn’t do anything to resolve the issue. The opposite. All you are achieving is shutting down an important conversation.

All that this ever achieves is to entrench division and force whole sections of society into ridiculous goody/baddie roles. How, exactly, does that help?
It plays back into that “You’reeither with us or against us” attitude the the Labour Party seems to exude, to many outside of it.

For reference, despite being a former Conservative party member and a “centrist” for the last 2 decades, I have been a Trades Union member for over thirty years. I have been listening to, and paying attention to, such arguments; for my entire working life. A working life that has already seen the transition from women and homosexuals being both legally and physically prevented from sea service, to preparing to join a ship under a female captain, apparently married to her wife for several years now (I haven’t met her yet, so that’s hearsay, I apologise for the double standard).

On the hearsay aspect. Would any of you accept a “I read that somebody posted on another forum, that they grew purple antlers on their testicles after receiving the Pfizer vaccine” without so much as a link to the forum in question?

Too complex to cover properly in this format, all of it.

Ultimately, I strongly suspect the current MET is better than it would have been without Cressida’s leadership and if it had continued with “more of the same” that proceeded her. This does not preclude acceptance that thing could and should be better, merely a belief that the expectations for pace of change are unrealistic and that the source of change is misrepresented by the arguments. Have you spoken to a group of teenage boys recently, school age I mean, because I had the “pleasure” recently and it was anything but. I think things are going backwards. I even suspect the approach to the situation I tried to identify here, might be why that is occurring.

[seankenny]

The fucking desperation to avoid criticising the police is disgusting, tying himself in knots to find some way that it was Everard's fault, that its women's fault. These people need to be fucked off out of public life.

As a matter of interest, do you have a working proposal for replacement of the police service/system?

As you probably know, I live in London. My third floor flat overlooks our carpark, where every so often men will come and inject heroin into their groin in full view of my home. Not surprisingly, I know some of my local police officers! I have a vested interest in the Met working effectively for all the citizens of my city. I fully support the police when they call for increasing staffing numbers and say they are under-resourced, something that has clearly happened as a result of the econoically illiterate and socially destructive policies of the various Conservative governments we've had since 2010. These governments have, generally speaking, been voted in thanks to the support of small town and rural residents, who it seems are happy to see the police and the courts defunded whilst those of us in big cities - who in general did not vote for these policies - suffer the lion's share of the consequences. One might go so far to say this many of the UK's citizens "simply failing to acknowledge the difficult realities of the world".

I get that policing London is difficult, it is a huge and complex place facing issues no other city in the UK does. I know that the Met do some really good work on murder and organised crime. I am also fully aware that the day to day work of all police officers is very tough, and that a lot of the social "clean up" work they do, such as dealing with the drug users in my neighbourhood (quite a nice neighbourhood, actually!) is both grim and the result of failures elsewhere in our society.

And yet, yet, yet... I totally agree with spidermonkey and battery here. This is an institution that in many respects is not fit for purpose. Let me tell you about my mate, who is a mild-mannered civil servant, teetotal, kinda churchy, yet gets pulled over more times in a year than I have in a decade. The fact that you read to the end of the previous sentence and you know exactly why this happens tells you all you need to know. This is not just an anecote: the latest police inspectorate report says (on page 50) that black people are 4.3 times more likely to be pulled over than whites. Yes, direction of travel, institutional change is hard, etc etc, but... it is 22 fucking years since the fucking Macpherson report!

So, moving on from the old news that the Met may struggle to serve the 40% of Londoners who aren't white, let's consider the new news that the Met may also struggle to deal with the 51% of Londoners who aren't male. Well, not new to women, obviously, given rape reporting rates, but you get my drift. In particular, let's look at this "hearsay" business. The story comes from an interview World at One did on Thursday with Parm Sandhu, who spent 30 years in the Met and rose to Chief Superintendent. Here's a transcript of that interview.

PS: "The police service is very sexist and misogynistic... it's put down to banter and "you can't take a joke". A lot of women will not report their colleagues because, if it was me..."
Interviewer: "Was it you, did you experience something that should have been reported?"
PS: "Yes, I did, but I dealt with it myself. And on one occaision I did report it and then I was vilified. Because what happens is, the male police officers will then close ranks and the fear that most women police officers have got is that when you're calling for help, you've pressed that emergency button on your radio, they're not going to turn up and you're going to get kicked in in the street. So you've got to be very careful and weigh which battles you can fight and which ones you can actually win."
Int: "So you don't report something serious that happens from a colleague because you fear that people will leave you to have your head kicked in?"
PS: "Yes. Absolutely. And women officers who are married to police officers won't report domestic violence either because of the same sort of issues. The woman becomes the perpetrator."

Here we have a former senior police officer telling us that she did not report a serious issue that should have been reported, and we have an explanation from her as to why she didn't, ie she felt the penalty of speaking out, as a woman, was the threat of violence - almost certainly male violence. She is clearly a tough cookie but she uses the word fear.

"I didn't report something because I was afraid of a beating. A woman complaining about male violence becomes the perpetrator."

That's where we're at. I'm livid about this. And you know what? This is never, ever fucking on us, is it? Us straight, white, reasonably middle class men, this is never really our shit to deal with. It's for black people, Asian people, gays, lesbians, women. Never fucking us that have this steaming pile of shite landing in the middle of our lives, is it? We can rationalise it away with banter or human nature or women bully too you know or the woke mob or whatever the shitty excuse du jour is, right?

What's that quote from Andrea Dworkin... "Many women, I think, resist feminism because it is an agony to be fully conscious of the brutal misogyny which permeates culture, society, and all personal relationships.”

So yes, your response - a quibble over the legal status followed by another statement that a fellow poster calls "profoundly offensive" - made me fucking angry. I don't punter people often and don't do it lightly, and to be honest I should have used my second choice and would delete my first if I could. But that is not bullying nor am I trying to silence you. I just think that you've confused freedom of speech from freedom from consequences. Please, post on.

As for the more interesting and substantive issue of Cressida Dick, of course she cannot know what is going on in every corner of a huge sprawling organisation. But what leaders are responsible for is creating the structures in which their subordinates work, and clearly something is going wrong here. Not just the Everard case. What about the disgusting case of police officers taking selfies next to murdered women Bibaa Henry and Nicole Smallman? Or the way women refuse to report sexual offences to the police? The undercover officers spying on protestors? The Daniel Morgan case?

Speaking as someone who's worked in communications, the way they've handled this is can only be an example of the Met's broader institutional failings. They've had months knowing this evidence was going to come out and to prepare for it. To say "yeah, just try to resist arrest or ask a bus driver"... well either they came up with this shit on the fly, in which case the leadership who have approved it really are incompetent, or they put it in their plans weeks or months ago and signed off on it, in which case the leadership are tone deaf idiots who cannot comprehend the impact of the words they use because they can't see outside their bunker.

Sure, this is communications rather than operations, but it's my experience that failures to communicate properly are often indicative of deeper organisational problems. Not to mention the minor point that public perception of the police is vital in them being able to operate properly. If a police chief's message is "consider trying to avoid arrest" rather than "here's what we've done, here's our strategy for the future" and they don't resign, then we are clearly in a world where the buck doesn't stop with anyone remotely senior.

I saw a fascinating post on Twitter from a professor of government who said one of his masters student was a police officer who wrote a dissertation highlighting some weaknesses in the Met HQ where he worked. He was promptly sent to work out in Peckham for a few years for his sins. This is not an organisational culture that can cope with being challenged and for the sake of all of us this needs to change. Some ideas how are here from Nick Timothy:
https://twitter.com/NJ_Timothy/status/1443879501545590785

One of them is: "Appoint not just a new Commissioner but an entirely new leadership team with a clean culture and a mission to reform the Met from top to bottom. If that means hiring from overseas, do it."

The fact he writes this after he was May's special advisor at the Home Office could be taken as a piece of cynical posturing, but I'll ignore that and take seriously the idea that police reform is really fucking hard. Partly because I believe it is, as every country has these problems, but also because we left-wingers, far from all being the naive fools you seem to take us for, Matt, are often very aware of how difficult improving society really is.

That's because we don't comfort ourselves with things like "Better than 30 years ago," which just doesn't cut it. I feel - I may be wrong - that those who are natural, small-c conservatives often love change and improvements in retrospect but struggle with the present day iteration of it, because change is chaotic and often involves a direct challenge to the people in charge. Conservatives are people who love the St James Bible and parliamentary democracy and so on, but forget that their antecedents killed those who translated the Bible into English, fought the 19th century reform movements, fought vigorously against people who don't have power clamouring for anything other than what they're given. Do excuse the diversion into my views on the conservative mindset, but it seemed relevant, hopefully more so than complaining about "scum Tories" or "woke mobs".

A bit of an essay that, but aside from finding this stuff important, I think that sometimes it's worth explaining to people why you've criticised them.

[spidermonkey09]

Will respond more fully at some point, but just as yet more evidence this problem is not confined to the Met. Abuse of power, reacting poorly when his authority questioned. No consequences, just a written warning. 

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1443944947346984960?s=19

[Oldmanmatt]

You may feel it “ doesn’t cut it”, but that doesn’t change it. I certainly don’t think it’s somebody else’s problem either, nor have I implied such.

Merely that the focus is on the wrong target. You’re talking about metaphorical “little Dutch boys” sticking fingers in Dykes and pretending the ocean isn’t lapping on the other side and already seeping through a thousand other small breaches.

“Better than thirty years ago” is a considerable achievement. More progress has been achieved in that period, than was won in the years between granting of sufferage, to the point chosen.

Again. This does not preclude accepting that a great deal more change is needed. I maintain, the MET is symptom, a metaphor for, society at large.

 Not sure demonising rural populations helps much, either.
People vote in what they believe to be their own best interests, for one thing and secondly, FPTP silences and disenfranchises as much of the rural population as any other.
As to Cressida’s tenure, or Tory bias etc, Labour were in power from  1997-2010, with power to completely overhaul the police service nationwide. They didn’t.

Righteous anger, is, often, actually pretty righteous and justified; it is also frequently both impotent and counterproductive.

I understand the reference to “ white middle classe men” etc, but I wonder if you’ve noticed the rapid increase in “recruiting” of young white men and children, by right wing organisations? It’s been mentioned a few times in various media outlets (I’m manning the desk at the bunker and snatching a moment here and there to type, frequently losing track of what I’ve written, or not quite writing what I intended. So not able to cite examples) and I’m certain I’ve seen it happen amongst my 14 year old son’s peer group. Alarmingly so.
You might look to the exclusionary rhetoric for a partial explanation of that, complex though it maybe in totality.

Banging the same old drum, once more. The “ Left” are adept at excluding whole swathes based on nuanced disagreements; the “ Right” embrace anybody who might further their own goals (they often put them up against a wall, once victory has been achieved (Metaphorically or literally, depending on scale of victory).
Right = Selfish, ends justify means etc etc.
Left= Empathy, belief in collective good etc etc.

The former seems to win out, repeatedly, despite generally commanding similar levels of support. Probably because of that ability to compromise moral stance, in favour of achieving goals.

[TobyD]

Re the Met and Cressida Dick, it's interesting that we're discussing this in a political thread incidentally. SM and Sean, I accept that the Met Police have significant failings, but at one time, not that long ago, the person who is ultimately responsible is surely the Home Secretary. I feel that she is just as culpable to be honest, concentrating on culture war bullshit and trying to victimise migrants and ignoring the fact that many of the difficulties the police have are surely due to the cuts made by her party and on her watch. There's no excuse for racism but it must be very hard to do that job with fewer and fewer resources and less funding, putting officers under pressure and leading to mistakes.
Cressida Dick shouldn't just be a punchbag for an incompetent government.

[Oldmanmatt]

Governments…

As pointed out above it’s been 22 years since the Macpherson report, which splits rather evenly between Labour and Tory governments…

[petejh]

Will respond more fully at some point, but just as yet more evidence this problem is not confined to the Met. Abuse of power, reacting poorly when his authority questioned. No consequences, just a written warning. 

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1443944947346984960?s=19

Really?
Without knowing anything else at all about it, I'd say that example can probably be pigeon-holed into the 'you reap what you sow / get the police treatment you deserve by your behaviour' category. Of course m'lord/lady I'm sure the man was an entirely upstanding bastion of his community and did a lot of good work for charity etc. And no that doesn't justify making up an offence to arrest someone, but it does just look like a duck twat being treated like a twat.

My thoughts are as OMM said it: some men (and women) are utter bastards. The police have to deal with these utter bastards daily because it's utter bastards who generally commit most crime. And some of the more undercover utter bastards even make it into the police force, just as they make it into politics, broadcasting, teaching, sports-coaching, business and finance, and dare I say it your chosen activity/sport. We're lucky to have the police force we do and by the proportion of utter bastards in society we probably deserve something more like the US police horror of horrors. Small mercies etc.

None of which means 'can't do better', especially around misogyny which is seemingly embedded in our collective psyches.

[battery]

There's lots of really good points being made here and good discussion that has moved on a huge amount since my last post so I just have a couple of points:

- it's not the 'minority report' to suggest that someone who has 3 accusations of indecent exposure and has the nickname 'the rapist' should be put on desk duties / suspended. Many many employers would take action on misconduct without a criminal act having been committed never mind a conviction secured.

- Cressida Dick is not to blame for the culture of the police. To seek to apportion blame seeks to scapegoat, and placate the masses into thinking that something has been done, that justice has been served and we can all get on with our lives. What I am so disappointed by is her response to the whole Sarah Everard case, my hope was that having a female at the top might change some of the communication strategies and victim blaming messaging that has come out of the police to be acceptance of failings and commitment to change.

[battery]

Will respond more fully at some point, but just as yet more evidence this problem is not confined to the Met. Abuse of power, reacting poorly when his authority questioned. No consequences, just a written warning. 

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1443944947346984960?s=19

Really?
Without knowing anything else at all about it, I'd say that example can probably be pigeon-holed into the 'you reap what you sow / get the police treatment you deserve by your behaviour' category. Of course m'lord/lady I'm sure the man was an entirely upstanding bastion of his community and did a lot of good work for charity etc.

My thoughts are as OMM said it: some men (and women) are utter bastards. The police have to deal with these utter bastards daily because it's utter bastards who generally commit most crime. And some of the more undercover utter bastards even make it into the police force, just as they make it into politics, broadcasting, teaching, sports-coaching, business and finance, and dare I say it your chosen activity/sport. We're lucky to have the police force we do and by the proportion of utter bastards in society we probably deserve something more like the US police horror of horrors. Small mercies etc.

None of which means 'can't do better', especially around misogyny which is seemingly embedded in our collective psyches.

I have huge huge issue with your categorisation of people who commit crime as utter bastards and therefore deserving of crap treatment. Treating someone with dignity and respect demonstrates to them how to behave. The police are supposed to be a professional service, there to uphold the law and keep people safe, not take it personally and treat people like crap,  in my experience you treat people with a bit of humanity and that's what you get back. I accept that there will always be exceptions to this but they are the exception, not the rule.

And what about the woman who is stealing or sex working in order to pay for food for her two kids? Or the middle class well educated man who committed fraud? Or the guy who punched someone in defence of his little brother? Or the 17 year old who has been groomed into drug running? It's easy to other people who commit crimes and write them all off as deserving of everything they get but once you start putting human details in and seeing them as people that becomes harder.