[Paul B]

Move it back. The Joker is a historic problem and allowing it to be erased by some dongs moving the block sends the wrong message about what's OK at the crags. I might be able to nip out for a bit on Thurs.

This, apart from Thurs. I'm working.

[Doylo]

Shame Dyer’s emigrated, he’d sort it out in a jiffy.

[cowboyhat]

What about the Klemmow/Sharples team? Or would they get lost and end up at Stoney?

[Johnny Brown]

genuine question, is there actually any difference between pulling on to the joker off a pad stack and pulling on from the block?

Seriously? The block was a natural feature. It was an awkward move. A pad stack is completely fucking arbitrary in location and height.

[northern yob]

genuine question, is there actually any difference between pulling on to the joker off a pad stack and pulling on from the block?

Seriously? The block was a natural feature. It was an awkward move. A pad stack is completely fucking arbitrary in location and height.
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Will it be straightforward to get it in virtually the same position Adam.If it doesn’t go back to within cm’s the history is fucked anyway it’s a different problem.

In the same way the holds are changing, it’s not the same bloc Jerry did. Surely it’s better to just move on. We can’t start freezing problems in time. Trying to restore things to a snapshot in time seems like a waste of time and energy.

At least that’s my view from an armchair in Lancashire....

[Mr E S Capegoat]

Stick some TNT under it and be done. Or reshape the renegade foot block into a miniature Easter island head with a 5.10 logo on it, then cement it back in place with perma cctv recording and validating all lank swing free ascents. Have a party at the works to celebrate

[northern yob]

Will it be straightforward to get it in virtually the same position Adam.If it doesn’t go back to within cm’s the history is fucked anyway it’s a different problem.

In the same way the holds are changing, it’s not the same bloc Jerry did. Surely it’s better to just move on. We can’t start freezing problems in time.  Trying to restore things to a snapshot in time seems like a waste of time and energy.

At least that’s my view from an armchair in Lancashire....

[Johnny Brown]

As Cofe said, what sort of precedent is that?

I've fondled the holds every year since Jerry did it and the difference is a few grains on the left hold making it slightly more positive for one or two fingers. However I have got stronger over the same period.

Still waiting for someone to explain what has been gained here? Just seems like fetishisation of big numbers to me.

[northern yob]

Exactly what sort of precedent is trying and failing to restore it to how it was. My point is  it’s changed and can’t be restored, seems to me trying to put it back is setting the precedent! It’s got nothing to do with grades or elitism. It’s about looking forward not backwards. Either way it’s no skin off my nose but I do think it’s quite an interesting debate. I’m normally in agreement with you, but not on this one. Any problem or route which breaks should be left, it’s a natural evolution. We shouldn’t be fucking with things( I know it sounds as though some knobs moved it n the first place but that’s done now)

[cowboyhat]

This is a metaphor for the election, some over the line performance art.

I'm blaming Redhead.

[Johnny Brown]

Really struggling to follow your logic. You do realise the finishing hold fell off and was glued back on? I would have been happy to leave that off personally. But it was replaced.

Now some dicks move the landing and you call it natural evolution! Fuck off! What makes you think the boulder can't be replaced? I have been and looked, it should go back with little more difficulty than it was moved.

[Bradders]

Doesn't feel like there's any right answer here, although it's an interesting conundrum ultimately it's going to be up to whomever is bothered enough to go and try to fix it.

For my part, with the disclaimer that I will probably never be good enough for The Joker, let alone The Ace and therefore firmly from my armchair, I'd side with leaving it / make the landing as safe as possible. For one, things change and it feels better to just roll with it rather than trying to keep it the same. For two, if people want to do the Joker they clearly still can; it still exists. And for three, the Joker was a contrived bit of weirdness anyway; the logical line is The Ace and pulling on halfway always had the look of exactly that, like climbing West Side Story and traversing off at the break.

The historical aspect is another interesting dimension, but here's a thought. If the boulder had never been there, I'm willing to bet that Jerry (and likely almost all subsequent repeaters) would have tried the move that became The Joker off stacked pads / a ladder or whatever as part of trying to do The Ace. When it really comes down to it, what's the difference?

The finishing hold being glued back on is a bit different. Would it have been impossible without it? Or much, much harder so as to make it impossible for all but the world class? Assuming so, I'm very happy it was repaired.

Totally agree that little has been gained, if anything, so it comes down to whether anyone is bothered enough to put the work in to restore it.

[Johnny Brown]

For two, if people want to do the Joker they clearly still can; it still exists. And for three, the Joker was a contrived bit of weirdness anyway; the logical line is The Ace and pulling on halfway always had the look of exactly that, like climbing West Side Story and traversing off at the break.

Utter bollocks. Sorry. No, you can't do the Joker any more. Doing it off a pad stack would be pointless and arbitrary yes; starting off the highest bit of natural ground was neither. It was also a great move.

Would it have been impossible without it? Or much, much harder so as to make it impossible for all but the world class?

This is exactly the same argument as removing the starting block, only leaving a 8b vs 8b+. Hence why it should have stayed.

[Bradders]

Just an opinion JB 

The other thing is I find it really hard to believe that anyone doing The Joker didn't have half an eye on The Ace. If I do it one day, there's no way I'd think to myself "right, jobs a good 'un, done with that". I'd think "well I'm halfway there". In that respect, I cannot see any difference in doing it off pads.

But like I say, it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks; if you care enough to try and restore it then go and do it 

[Johnny Brown]

I've never had an eye on the Ace, it is a lot harder overall and I haven't got the strength or height. But also it has always been just a low extension to me; the crux is still the same move. That has also been reinforced by watching the strong and light like Megos path through the start of the Ace every go but be utterly unable to do the move at the top. Which also begs the question whether anyone has done the Ace without first doing the Joker off the block. I doubt it.

[northern yob]

Of course I know it was glued back on. I thought it should have been left off then.

It just doesn’t seem right glueing holds back on. I know it’s very different, but it just doesn’t sit right with me.

By natural evolution I meant problems changing in general not this particular bloc. It’s more the general principle of it all. I don’t care either way really. Good on anyone who moves it back. It will probably be good fun. Its a very interesting debate, in which there isn’t really a right or wrong.

[Johnny Brown]

Agree with the hold falling off. I'd rather it get harder than be held together with glue.

The general principle here I have a big fucking issue with is that some twats think they can delete a classic boulder problem by vandalising a perfectly natural feature. As I said, the only argument for I can even imagine is pure elitism. Putting it back seems massively preferable to letting them set that precedent.

Ps Plus Dense won't have to 'break their fucking legs'. As a compromise option I'd say I'd accept for the starting block to go if the glued finshing hold is removed and the perps have their legs broken. But I think it going back is better for everyone.

[Bonjoy]

Well I'll be going for a look on Thurs and will be happy to go with whatever the team who turns up decides is best (which currently sounds like moving back into place if at all possible).
If a few people turn up it shouldn't be hard to move w/wo mechanical assistance.
Some photos showing the block position and/or people with a good knowledge/memory of it would be useful.

[Will Hunt]

The most compelling argument for putting it back is that acts of vandalism should not go uncorrected or they become legitimised and more likely in future.

[tomtom]

It is certainly possible to map the position and location (in 3d) of where the boulder should be using SFM (structure from motion) with a handful of photos (from different angles). I expect there are probably several hundred pictures out there of that bloc/immediate area - so finding some suitable would not be a problem. I can't work the software to work out where it was (I'm not that clever) but I know people who can. It would take a bit of time of course...

Or move it back to roughly where it was.. after all didnt some people step off a mat on the block before anyway (the same as not having the bloc in the exact same spot in effect)...? (If I'm wrong on this sorry)

[Moo]

I think that's the real nub of the issue here. If the starting block had snapped in half somehow and was now lying dangerously under the boulder while making the joker no longer possible, I think it would be safe to say everyone would be happy with moving it.

It's the precedent it sets for altering established problems.

[Duma]

How do all the folk wanting to move it back feel about Thick End of the Wedge at Burbage?

[haydn jones]

How do all the folk wanting to move it back feel about Thick End of the Wedge at Burbage?

That's not quite the same since moving the block back would destroy a 3 star climb in that situation.

Moving the block back here creates a 3 star historical test piece, and without interfering with any other problems.

[northern yob]

Ahhh right you are, now I can see where your coming from with the elitism..... I hadn’t quite grasped that. Break their legs I say. Do you actually know who it was??

[Sasquatch]

Is it confirmed that it was intentionally moved?