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Topic split - chasing a spectre (Read 98063 times)

MischaHY

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#175 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 08:11:04 am
https://www.rokblok.de/post/fame-is-a-bitch

This sort of thing absolutely boggles my mind. How delusional do you have to be?

The weirdest thing is that from a marketing perspective (if that's what you assume the incentive is), he could probably get a fair bit of mileage from an 'unfinished' story perspective where he goes and tries it but then subsequently realises that he has to put way more work in if he wants to do it. It also invests people in his future content as they'll occasionally ask themselves 'I wonder if he did it yet?'.

This also makes me question the legitimacy of every other hard route he claimed previously.

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#176 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 09:29:47 am
It is all very sad. I climbed with Said for a day about a week before he did TTT in Nice this autumn, and he was an absolute monster – displaying the kind of ability on strength-endurance routes that I would take to translate into 8c+/9a form. I also been climbing with him when he's been nowhere near close to that ability.

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#177 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 10:35:04 am
It is all very sad. I climbed with Said for a day about a week before he did TTT in Nice this autumn, and he was an absolute monster – displaying the kind of ability on strength-endurance routes that I would take to translate into 8c+/9a form. I also been climbing with him when he's been nowhere near close to that ability.

Given the topic of this thread, I find this to be extremely interesting. I have heard a lot of people use the "he was strong, but no where near THAT strong" as something of a demonstration that various people could have fabricated ascents (we have even seen it in this thread). I have always been left in awe of peoples capacity to be so consistent with their climbing performance that it becomes a counterproof to other peoples claims when they see someone struggle on something 5< grades below their purported max! My current max is 8A, but last time I tried Cromlech Roof Crack I got shut down. If anyone had seen me on CRC that day, there is absolutely no way they would believe I was within 3 years of Diesel Power, let alone had already done it!

I can absolutely see how someone could fluctuate wildly in their performance, given that I have done it myself. For me all it usually takes is sitting down and eating something and suddenly I can't pull on that thing I was getting close to earlier. Because of this I always dismiss anecdotal evidence of this kind as interesting but ultimately meaningless. Am I missing something here???

MischaHY

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#178 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 11:06:22 am
I've recently made the experience of just how damn close you can feel on something and still not be able to do it on the link.

I've got no experience in the 9a range but recently spent 12 sessions trying to climb Migranya which is an 8b in Siurana and a similar style of route in that it's a power/power endurance type thing. Long story short despite having it wired and being able to do the individual moves and even make overlapping halves very smoothly, I still fell 8 times from the last hard move (post here for reference: https://www.facebook.com/MHawkerYates/posts/10218329835071032?__tn__=H-R)

With this in mind I just cannot fathom how anyone could even begin to claim they'd done a route when multiple witnesses confirm that they couldn't even link it bolt to bolt. Even a slight drop in form and energy levels was enough to end my redpoint chances on any given day and I was getting maybe two good attempts per session.

I don't believe in magic moments, unless the 'magic' is a tiny tiny margin which could be construed to conditions, psyche or just having that extra boost from a cheeky haribo. Apparently even Simpson could link the top bit solidly. My mate who only climbs around 8b+ has done all the moves bolt to bolt aside from the jump.

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#179 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 11:07:49 am
Good thread.

I've always been pretty sceptical of Gaskins from my mid 7s armchair. I've never felt qualified to express that scepticism openly, so it's been interesting to hear from people who are. Maybe he's avoided wider scrutiny because he's inoffensive, off the radar and clearly handy enough. But I'm inclined to take an unapologetic burn the witch position on his shitty and/or impossible nonsense lines.

However on form variance I would certainly agree with the above, depending on the person. Doesn't Matt Birch have CFS and resultant V4-V14 top end form variance?     

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#180 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 11:09:52 am
And by above I mean AMorris.

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#181 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 11:39:07 am
I've recently made the experience of just how damn close you can feel on something and still not be able to do it on the link.

I've got no experience in the 9a range but recently spent 12 sessions trying to climb Migranya which is an 8b in Siurana and a similar style of route in that it's a power/power endurance type thing. Long story short despite having it wired and being able to do the individual moves and even make overlapping halves very smoothly, I still fell 8 times from the last hard move (post here for reference: https://www.facebook.com/MHawkerYates/posts/10218329835071032?__tn__=H-R)

With this in mind I just cannot fathom how anyone could even begin to claim they'd done a route when multiple witnesses confirm that they couldn't even link it bolt to bolt. Even a slight drop in form and energy levels was enough to end my redpoint chances on any given day and I was getting maybe two good attempts per session.

I don't believe in magic moments, unless the 'magic' is a tiny tiny margin which could be construed to conditions, psyche or just having that extra boost from a cheeky haribo. Apparently even Simpson could link the top bit solidly. My mate who only climbs around 8b+ has done all the moves bolt to bolt aside from the jump.

Maybe more ancap in the base phaze followed up with aero-pow but not over doing the anpow due to chance of lactic overload? Should see you up it. There’s a couple on here that might be able to help. Maybe not with Said’s marketing strategy though, process being more important than end result these days

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#182 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 11:42:38 am
My current max is 8A, but last time I tried Cromlech Roof Crack I got shut down. If anyone had seen me on CRC that day, there is absolutely no way they would believe I was within 3 years of Diesel Power, let alone had already done it!

Am I missing something here???

Yes, your ascent of DP is clearly fabricated, as is anything above 7b. Any evidence otherwise has clearly been created at Disney Industrial Light and Magic at massive expense*







*In case anyone has any doubt, this is a joke.

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#183 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 11:52:16 am
It is all very sad. I climbed with Said for a day about a week before he did TTT in Nice this autumn, and he was an absolute monster – displaying the kind of ability on strength-endurance routes that I would take to translate into 8c+/9a form. I also been climbing with him when he's been nowhere near close to that ability.

Given the topic of this thread, I find this to be extremely interesting. I have heard a lot of people use the "he was strong, but no where near THAT strong" as something of a demonstration that various people could have fabricated ascents (we have even seen it in this thread). I have always been left in awe of peoples capacity to be so consistent with their climbing performance that it becomes a counterproof to other peoples claims when they see someone struggle on something 5< grades below their purported max! My current max is 8A, but last time I tried Cromlech Roof Crack I got shut down. If anyone had seen me on CRC that day, there is absolutely no way they would believe I was within 3 years of Diesel Power, let alone had already done it!

I can absolutely see how someone could fluctuate wildly in their performance, given that I have done it myself. For me all it usually takes is sitting down and eating something and suddenly I can't pull on that thing I was getting close to earlier. Because of this I always dismiss anecdotal evidence of this kind as interesting but ultimately meaningless. Am I missing something here???
I would expect to be able to repeat most of the problems and routes I have climbed quite quickly. But last week, I had to walk away from a problem in perfect conditions that I first climbed 3 years ago and which I had retroflashed last year. This problem is a full 10 Font grades below my current maximum.  :shrug:

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#184 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 11:59:33 am
My current max is 8A, but last time I tried Cromlech Roof Crack I got shut down. If anyone had seen me on CRC that day, there is absolutely no way they would believe I was within 3 years of Diesel Power, let alone had already done it!

Am I missing something here???

Yes, your ascent of DP is clearly fabricated, as is anything above 7b. Any evidence otherwise has clearly been created at Disney Industrial Light and Magic at massive expense*







*In case anyone has any doubt, this is a joke.

 :lol:  :guilty:

MischaHY

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#185 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 12:59:29 pm
I've recently made the experience of just how damn close you can feel on something and still not be able to do it on the link.

I've got no experience in the 9a range but recently spent 12 sessions trying to climb Migranya which is an 8b in Siurana and a similar style of route in that it's a power/power endurance type thing. Long story short despite having it wired and being able to do the individual moves and even make overlapping halves very smoothly, I still fell 8 times from the last hard move (post here for reference: https://www.facebook.com/MHawkerYates/posts/10218329835071032?__tn__=H-R)

With this in mind I just cannot fathom how anyone could even begin to claim they'd done a route when multiple witnesses confirm that they couldn't even link it bolt to bolt. Even a slight drop in form and energy levels was enough to end my redpoint chances on any given day and I was getting maybe two good attempts per session.

I don't believe in magic moments, unless the 'magic' is a tiny tiny margin which could be construed to conditions, psyche or just having that extra boost from a cheeky haribo. Apparently even Simpson could link the top bit solidly. My mate who only climbs around 8b+ has done all the moves bolt to bolt aside from the jump.

Maybe more ancap in the base phaze followed up with aero-pow but not over doing the anpow due to chance of lactic overload? Should see you up it. There’s a couple on here that might be able to help. Maybe not with Said’s marketing strategy though, process being more important than end result these days

I suspect this may have helped, although I also think that I need more base power. The problem was that I had to use a pretty high percentage of my individual power on several of the moves that I really needed to feel easier in order to get the link.

I might have even trained this, but I actually put the aeropow work in for Kalea and then turned to Migranya when the former ended up getting very wet near the beginning of the trip and I wanted to get cracking with something hard. It very quickly turned it that 'oooh nearly but not quite' scenario and that dragged out with it feeling very close every session but not quite happening.

Needless to say I'm now working on base power and have set some bouldering goals in order to streamline that process somewhat!

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#186 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 02:39:23 pm
I agree with the points regarding changes in form on any given day or over the short to medium term as I experience this myself very regularly, obviously at a lower grade than is generally being discussed here. Some days I can easily climb 8a+ in 2 or 3 goes in a session and other days I can barely do the moves. This often depends on the style of the route but also on other factors. A few years ago I climbed 2 8c's but I suspect if someone was to see me climb these days, particularly on one of the off-days on 8a+ or below, they would struggle to believe that!

However, looking at the case of Said Belhaj in particular, the main hole is not that he may have had wildly varying form or looked weak on the moves on AD, it is that he could not name his belayer, who then suddenly disappeared from Instagram. Can anyone here honestly imagine doing one of your hardest ever routes, a historic classic, and not remembering the name or staying in touch with your belayer?

What interests me more is the psychology of it. If Said did lie then it was very poorly planned as having details of a belayer would be an obvious thing people would want to know, particularly after other made up ascents in similar/the same circumstances have been exposed by this simple detail. I wonder whether it was planned in advance or a spur of the moment decision on the day, and in either case what the intrinsic motivation was. I know a couple of serial liars outside of climbing and what strikes me is that despite regularly lying they are very poor at it. It is like they don't even try to position the lie in the realm of believability, or at least to an extent that won't open up massive curiosity/scrutiny. Once their lies come under scrutiny they fall apart and then they tend to go off the radar for a while or won't entertain any talk or discussion regarding their initial lie. You think regular liars would actually be good at lying but that is not the case.

For me personally, it would be disappointing if Said Belhaj has lied as I always found him quite inspiring as someone who gets up hard routes through perseverance, despite not being the strongest climber around. Obviously this incident opens up questions about his other hard ascents.   

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#187 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 02:58:01 pm

Given the topic of this thread, I find this to be extremely interesting. I have heard a lot of people use the "he was strong, but no where near THAT strong" as something of a demonstration that various people could have fabricated ascents (we have even seen it in this thread).

In reference to the stuff on this thread, I think it's more about people claiming things and then being unable to make any meaningful links on the same stuff in the presence of witnesses. E.g. John not being able to pull on to shadowplay, only being able to get pics while falling slowly off VNB or Said not being able to make any big links on AD.

Everyone's got bogey problems that are way below things they have done, but it's very unusual that you can do a problem one day and not be able to pull on the next.

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#188 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 03:27:52 pm
Obviously we all, except Megos, know that bad conditions/form do exist. In the redpoint movie with Alex Megos we can see a 9b/8C climber not being able to do the moves on an 8c he has previously climbed a few times! That's like me not being able to do the moves on an 7c I've done before! Jeezus, I would kill myself.

After having done a long term project this spring I gained four kilos in a week. That was not particularly conductive to climbing hard, and I can easily imagine that I would not have been able to one-hang the route in bad conditions. (Given decent conditions and two weeks to whip myself back into shape I would most likely be able to reclimb anything I've recently done, of course. I think the same is true for almost anyone.)

Alas, I have always interpreted mystery belayer as "no, I couldn't be arsed in the end"

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#189 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 03:45:46 pm
If nothing else it was funny to find out Bock calls Simpson ‘Rich the Bitch’.

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#190 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 06:53:23 pm
I’ve been reading this interesting book today called ‘Learning to be Human’ by Leston Havens, described as an ‘Iconoclastic psychiatrist and psychotherapist’ anyway he was influenced by the Harry Stack Sullivan school of psychotherapists who also influenced the social psychological models of Erich Fromm. Anyway how does all this relate to Said and this thread, well two reasons I guess. His alleged lie about action direct and its reaction on here can be viewed in the context of the so called ‘community’ at large. As our icons fall by the way side and as always turn out to be mortals.... two paragraphs from the book struck me

‘Many feel as giants to themselves, the way objects that are closest seem largest. They may not know they are confined and being psychologically digested’

And

‘Many famous people gain psychological weight. Not only do they seem weighty to others, but famous people often live in a selfcontemplation of titles and prizes that displace the lightness of being. There are also those who “drop” names, gaining weight by taking bits of fame onto themselves. In either case, it is a sad property of being to be easily displaced: a title offers a handier, more secure point of existence that thrusts aside the person. Titles fill up a person the way tree stumps clog a stream’


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#191 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 09:19:16 pm
If it is a lie then this is going to some lengths (also disrespectful IMO).

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bpe-HcSHIBp/

I never believed Paul Robinson did Lucid Dreaming when I heard the story behind it. Utter bollocks.

It really does make you wonder what other shit people have made up.

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#192 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 09:46:40 pm
That looks like pretty distasteful self-aggrandising by association. Quite a lot of acting out- if you have so much pride in your work you don’t need to hijack the dead in support of it.

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#193 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 09:50:29 pm
I never believed Paul Robinson did Lucid Dreaming when I heard the story behind it. Utter bollocks.

You should listen to his defense: http://www.thundercling.com/2019/07/episode-19-paul-robinson-and-jeremy-fullerton-tales-from-the-boulders/

It seems unlikely to me that he made up his ascent.

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#194 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 09:50:50 pm

Alas, I have always interpreted mystery belayer as "no, I couldn't be arsed in the end"

If I had just climbed one of the most famous routes in the world with a mystery belayer I’d be tempted to pose for a photo together and ask him his name. And email.

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#195 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 09:58:36 pm
Also read on insta that Said Belhaj also did Papichulo with a phantom belayer on a humid misty day with no one else at the crag (due to the conditions ).

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#196 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 10:04:24 pm
Belhaj no longer featured as an ambassador on Patagonia or La Sportiva's websites.

Hannes Huch had half-finished a film about the 'ascent' for Patagonia. In many ways it would have been easier for him to keep quiet.

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#197 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 10:13:08 pm
Am I the only one chuckling that MishaHY took our resident AeroTroll's training advice at face value and gave him a straight bat reply?

AMorris's point about form is a good one. Some climbers fluctuate wildly, some are more consistent. Response to training is on a spectrum and some climbers have a low base level of endurance or power which can peak at a much higher level in response to stimuli. Seen it locally with wads, and at a much lower level experience the same thing at punterdom level. Mystery belayers on a cutting edge/famous ascent, once in a career maybe.. but probability of it happening more than once on a cutting edge supposed ascent... no chance, bullshit red alert.

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#198 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 10:34:36 pm
Not fair Pete, that was solid advice based on the seminal pdf

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#199 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 09, 2019, 10:50:02 pm
Not fair Pete, that was solid advice based on the seminal pdf

I think you now owe it to Misha to continue coaching him up Migranya...

 

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