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Topic split - chasing a spectre (Read 11889 times)

SA Chris

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#75 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 03, 2019, 01:54:02 pm
Obviously the logistics of trying something hard in Nevis is not the easiest but i believe you have some love for Dumby   :ninja:

Dan has been to work on some things in more inaccessible parts of Scotland than Glen Nevis. Projecting in Torridon for one.

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#76 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 03, 2019, 02:21:07 pm
Obviously the logistics of trying something hard in Nevis is not the easiest but i believe you have some love for Dumby   :ninja:

Dan has been to work on some things in more inaccessible parts of Scotland than Glen Nevis. Projecting in Torridon for one.

Oh i know, but repeating someone else's 8B+ (esp Natural Method which is a bit off the path) would require considerable time, effort and motivation compared with the rewards of new FAs at Torridon around 8A. Dan did do a FA in Nevis - Cameron Arete at 8a+ that DMac then linked to give an 8B. Just wondered if he looked at Dave's 8B+s while he was there and if Dave's hardest would fall roughly into the same level as The Rail for example and if both would get 8C in Suiss.

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#77 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 03, 2019, 02:52:15 pm
I've climbed on Natural method with Dave in 2012. I got pretty close that session, doing it in an overlap but the kneebar is really techy, i stupidly worked that part first and melted my knee skin as i had thermals on and that was me buggered for the day on it. NM is difficult to put in a box as the intro moves and the headwall arent too tricky but the kneebar is going to be a real curveball and stop many climbers in their tracks, my leg only just fits in. I went back (the session i did beartrap) but the pinch was seeping which was frustrating after slogging up there. This was the same visit i did the Cameron stone arete.

i've repeated deep breath, beartrap prow and triangulation with gangle (sandbag) venom jag all quickly. At dumby i did fire starter 2nd go, pongo sit and sabotage fast and i did sanction from a stand on my first session milking the kneebar but i've not been back on it, my only visits since being when i have been a bit crippled. I've not put much effort in to scotland other than flying 3-4day visits (i have one longer term project in torridon at the moment and thats it) but generally all of Dave's  problems that don't go too far sideways are things that i'm very keen for and their quality is up there with the best of the UK. It's also less of a thing to just repeat things up there as there is so much new stuff to do so i've tried to strike a balance.

cheque

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#78 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 03, 2019, 03:51:35 pm
With all the outrage and frothing its easy to forget that climbing has been until recently a quaint little pastime, and that there are humans in there lying for whatever reason, humans with issues.

Take Rich Simpson, a great example of the fact and fiction. Undeniably strong, but also apparently just very impatient. Seems to have subscribed to
'well I could do it so I'll just say I have'

When I was about 7 or 8 I was given a Rubik's Cube and I had about a week or so of trying really hard to solve it, doing nothing else. I got it to a point where it was nearly done, just a few of the wrong colour on a couple of the faces. I found it really frustrating as starting to try and move them to the right sides trashed loads of my hard work and I couldn't see how I could get it back from there. Then the thought occurred to me that they were just stickers and I decided to try peeling them. I lifted them off neatly and carefully put them in the correct spaces. It looked perfect.

I took it and showed my Mum, more to check if she'd be able to tell if I'd cheated or not than to claim I'd done it but she reacted in such proud amazement that I didn't dissuade her.  :smartass: The she started telling everyone she spoke to about her genius kid.  :look: I felt a bit guilty but just thought "well, I almost did it and I did do a very good job of those last few stickers" and just went with it.

Then a few days later at school the headteacher came up to me to tell me that they were going to get me up in that mornings assembly in recognition of my amazing feat.  :ohmy: Not to solve a Rubik's Cube in front of the other kids or anything, just to give me loads of praise. I had a very clear realisation that this was the last possible point at which I could admit that I'd cheated- after this I'd be in massive trouble if I confessed and the only option would just be to go with it. So I tearfully owned up. I can't remember the exact consequences so I imagine they were quite bad but I do remember being very relieved. Maybe if I hadn't owned up then I would have ended up on "You Bet!" or some shit and gone down in history as "that lying Rubik's Cube kid".  :lol:

When there are cases like this (in climbing or otherwise) I always feel like the people involved just started as innocently as my Rubik's Cube thing did but they missed their moment to get out before it all snowballed.

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#79 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 03, 2019, 04:14:53 pm
Hmm nice story Mike but you're talking about something that happened to you as a child.

I actually have a copy of what Rich Simpson wrote on UKC (it was later deleted) when he was accusing Ben Heason of lying about various things. Like watching Shark's video of the G, it's uncomfortable reading (this was posted before he made up stuff about the 4 minute mile, soloing Cime Grande etc). Simpson was known as a liar amongst people I know who were at Birmingham Uni. His lying was not limited to climbing.

There are some people out there who at one time or another are so desperate for recognition/status etc that they lie. It's more than just something 'snowballing' or getting out of hand.

Saw the G in France this summer. He was staying on the same campsite as us near Annot and getting out climbing early doors apparently. Kept himself to himself quelle surprise.

reeve

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#80 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 03, 2019, 04:27:04 pm
Hmm nice story Mike but you're talking about something that happened to you as a child.

But surely that's the point - something like that is easily forgivable when done by a child, but less so than by an adult who has the self-awareness to see where it will go and the moral judgement to know better. I think Mike is probably right in the way he describes this kind of behaviour developing. Perhaps Mike is being rather kind by saying that they (i.e. serial liars) missed their opportunity to stop doing this kind of thing as it implies that they are are not personally responsible for what they are doing.

Quote
There are some people out there who at one time or another are so desperate for recognition/status etc that they lie. It's more than just something 'snowballing' or getting out of hand. I've witnessed it first hand and it's very odd/sad.
I might be mistaken, but you seem to be taking 'snowballing' to mean that it's just a little thing which has got a bit out of hand. All adult behaviour starts somewhere, and if a need for recognition or status was fulfilled through lying as a child, then it is likely to continue (and grow) that way as an adult. In the same way that a violent sociopathic adult may have first found an outlet / reward / met a need for power by killing spiders as a young child (but obviously lying about a few rock climbs matters somewhat less than this somewhat distal example).

SA Chris

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#81 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 03, 2019, 04:40:44 pm

I actually have a copy of what Rich Simpson wrote on UKC (it was later deleted) when he was accusing Ben Heason of lying about various things. Like watching Shark's video of the G, it's uncomfortable reading


I do remember that, I think a few people got a bit nasty towards Ben.

mrjonathanr

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#82 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 03, 2019, 05:36:46 pm
To paraphrase, I think Reeve is saying you're probably a pathological liar by now Mike.

In which case should we really believe this last-minute Rubik's Cube confessional stuff?  :-\

Will Hunt

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#83 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 03, 2019, 06:03:11 pm
I'm starting to wonder whether this whole falling-down-a-crag-in-Spain thing has just been an elaborate insurance job and means to promote The Seaside.

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#84 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 03, 2019, 06:07:33 pm
Gripping story Cheque - through the torment of the moral dilemma and the perturbing finale where the by-now-palpitating reader can only imagine the "quite bad" consequences  :ohmy:

habrich

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#85 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 03, 2019, 07:19:45 pm
When there are cases like this (in climbing or otherwise) I always feel like the people involved just started as innocently as my Rubik's Cube thing did but they missed their moment to get out before it all snowballed.

Have you seen the very funny Ali's Wedding (or read Good Muslim Boy, the book it is based on)? That's pretty much how that story starts.

ferret

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#86 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 03, 2019, 07:44:00 pm
Although in Sheffield at that time there seemed to be a healthy dose of skepticism about anyone who didnít live in Sheffield!
Believe me there was plenty of scepticism of climbers that lived in Sheffield too. People were talking about Simpson years before anything came out on the net. Most of the controversial figures I can think of did little to dispell the myths, with the exception of John Dunne (who also seemed to deliberately create controversy)

ferret

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#87 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 03, 2019, 08:22:55 pm
One thing about this whole thing that intrigues me, if we take Dan's well made arguments that he was a fantasist what was he doing on Brandenburg? He was seen at the crag enough times to confirm that he was indeed making early morning 2+ hour drives there. Was he just dogging about convincing himself that he could do it, actually climbing easier stuff or just picnicking with the missus?
Also his claim of less miroir Des vanities there and back at cuvier rempart. I mean what a claim to make up, it's gotta be one of the shitiest problems in one of the world's greatest bouldering areas. If the story is true it shows an embarrassing lack of taste.

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#88 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 03, 2019, 08:35:23 pm
The RunOut podcast #3, ĎThe Tradition of Truthí, covers this area well, focusing on Uli Steckís solo of the South face of Annapurna and Killian Journetís rapid ascent of Everestís North Ridge. Exceptional climbers with long track-records of verified world-class achievement but both ascents have more holes than a Swiss cheese.

The obvious UK fabulist is Gary Gibson: thousands of new routes, many witnessed, some doubtful, and a few he acknowledges are figments of his imagination. Iíve no intention of reading his book but does he discuss the motivation behind this creativity?


andy popp

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#89 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 03, 2019, 08:43:28 pm
Iíve no intention of reading his book but does he discuss the motivation behind this creativity?

He admits to an enormous need for recognition, right from the very beginning really. It has some of the innocence of Cheque's story of the Rubik's cube, something that got out of hand. That said he acknowledges it was wrong, but I suspect he now views other transgressions (e.g. bolting on Lundy) as greater sins. As far as I remember, he discusses the false claims in relation to quite specific cases - I suspect there are probably considerably more. But even so, the false claims make up a tiny proportion of those routes he really did make the FA of.

shark

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#90 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 03, 2019, 08:46:11 pm
One thing about this whole thing that intrigues me, if we take Dan's well made arguments that he was a fantasist what was he doing on Brandenburg? He was seen at the crag enough times to confirm that he was indeed making early morning 2+ hour drives there.

Brandenburg is intriguing. Paul Reeve saw him get high enough to think he was going to do it at the time, but it was a long time ago and Paul canít be specific in his recollection about what point he fell off.

Johnís wife was his belayer in his attempts. I bumped into John at the Tor earlier this year for the first time since the interview and he described where he got to on Brandenberg which was getting to one of the Make It Funky holds albeit getting it with a different hand. He said one time he got it and fell off and the other he made the mistake of adjusting and fell off. He reckoned that on the moves thereafter he never fell off on the dog.

Iím just adding what I am aware of. Not making a case either way. That is all.

Would love for some of the current wads to get on it - Jim, Ned, Buster, William, Pete..


« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 08:57:25 pm by shark »

gme

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#91 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 03, 2019, 09:07:58 pm
I think your last comment is totally crucial. The Brandenburg stuff seems to be reliably witnessed but to my knowledge no one has tried it properly so it might not be that bad. Might be 8B+ / 8C ish.

The same thing appears not to be true of the boulder problems.

Mr E S Capegoat

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#92 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 03, 2019, 10:51:56 pm
Just working on a new film about this. Posted on here as proof of concept, should be out for Christmas. A complex fusion of conspiracy theory, British all in wrestling and erm bouldering controversy. The truth is out there....


Mark Lloyd

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#93 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 04, 2019, 08:40:09 am
I blame you its all your fault goat Scrape if you could operate that pinhole camera of yours properly w'ed have proper photographic evidence.It's not use trying to disguise yourself by losing your hair we know it's you.

Mr E S Capegoat

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#94 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 04, 2019, 09:13:12 am
Is this THE Mark Lloyd? Aka Lloydy? The one that stranded me at the foot of a 200m Sardinian sea cliff with the tide coming in? The one that followed me into Wen Zawn without the guidebook and nut key Iíd left him? Not to be trusted that lad

SA Chris

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#95 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 04, 2019, 09:31:44 am
Iíve no intention of reading his book but does he discuss the motivation behind this creativity?

He admits to an enormous need for recognition, right from the very beginning really. It has some of the innocence of Cheque's story of the Rubik's cube, something that got out of hand. That said he acknowledges it was wrong, but I suspect he now views other transgressions (e.g. bolting on Lundy) as greater sins. As far as I remember, he discusses the false claims in relation to quite specific cases - I suspect there are probably considerably more. But even so, the false claims make up a tiny proportion of those routes he really did make the FA of.

The JCPC is worth a listen if you don't want to read the book. He's pretty open about it.

andy popp

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#96 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 04, 2019, 09:50:49 am
Iíve no intention of reading his book but does he discuss the motivation behind this creativity?

He admits to an enormous need for recognition, right from the very beginning really. It has some of the innocence of Cheque's story of the Rubik's cube, something that got out of hand. That said he acknowledges it was wrong, but I suspect he now views other transgressions (e.g. bolting on Lundy) as greater sins. As far as I remember, he discusses the false claims in relation to quite specific cases - I suspect there are probably considerably more. But even so, the false claims make up a tiny proportion of those routes he really did make the FA of.

The JCPC is worth a listen if you don't want to read the book. He's pretty open about it.

Agreed. I think this is one of the very best JCPCs.

Mark Lloyd

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#97 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 04, 2019, 08:08:34 pm
That was just karma for writing off the hire car mr crap groat

PS good effort on livening up the forums around here

Mr E S Capegoat

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#98 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 04, 2019, 08:44:48 pm
Llllllloyddyyy!!!! 💗💗💗

Yeah got the hire car write off ticked from my Anti-Bucket list.

Back on topic, arenít you knocking around with Gibo in some broke dick quarries these day?

Mr E S Capegoat

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#99 Re: Topic split - chasing a spectre
December 05, 2019, 07:55:31 am
Talking about spectreís has Nikís wall been repeated yet?