[webbo]

There was Keith Mcallum? who claimed loads of routes at Gogarth and only led about diff. Phil Garlick claimed lots of stuff in Lancashire and odd things in Yorkshire.
There was a guy who claimed to have done things like the 2nd ascent of the Dru Couloir and it turned out his partner didn’t exist.
There were the guys who claimed to have climbed Jokers wall at Brimham. Also Ontos at Bamford was claimed by someone at dismissed as fantasy.
There must be dozens that are known and I bet there’s a fair few that have slipped under the radar.

[Duma]

For those who don't follow him, Doylos IG post is truly amazing:

https://www.instagram.com/p/B5fnHVfDkpQ/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

[Fiend]

End of debate really!

[Nigel]

With fantasy climbers I’ve encountered it’s usually that it’s a confusing mixture of fact and fantasy.

So true. The fact is that the G was pretty handy. He does pretty well on isla d'encanta on stick it (8b). I've had a lancs local from near fairy steps tell me he used to see him trying walk away sit every time he walked his dog and he was always nearly snagging break. Also had someone i trust say they saw him on brandenburg gates and he was doing all the moves. Add that to gme's anecdote and he definitely had form at a good level.

Things like shadowplay, moment of clarity do seem far fetched no matter how much you want to believe.

The truth as always is probably somewhere in the middle.

In reply to dan, I cant remember when Ryan did shallow groove, must be ten years ago ish? He did do it when i was there, pretty quick, a few goes in between other things. He had done it before though yes. Please don't give him ideas about claiming 8b+! I'll never hear the end of it 

[lagerstarfish]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rick-Simpson-Oil-Natures-Answer/dp/9535875124/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=Rick+Simpson+Oil&qid=1575153929&sr=8-1

[shark]

Perhaps the Gaskins material could be separated from the rest of the thread? It would be a shame to lose it amongst the dross.  It’s not sponsor friendly happy-clappy so I really appreciate Carlisle sticking his head out and telling it like it is.

OK done.

To all - please don't make me regret this - keep it civil

[Mr E S Capegoat]

I think when Duncan suggested splitting the thread to clear the ‘dross’ I’m not sure he meant Carlisle’s posts. But maybe some of the others... like Doylo and Fiend
Anyway onwards

[shark]

Ah - I thought he meant the on-topic replies on deadhanging records etc which did seem a bit harsh

[tomtom]

What’s Spectre doing in all this mess? I thought this was a Jason Bourne franchise? 🤔

[Fiend]

Done sensibly. Could you now split off GapeScroat's posts from the forum full stop??

[Duma]

I do love the Cattell’s ‘Gone are the days of the G’ song .

Is this online anywhere?

[Doylo]

I do love the Cattell’s ‘Gone are the days of the G’ song .

Is this online anywhere?

[Duma]

Amazing! Thanks Chris

[Mr E S Capegoat]

In confusing times propaganda can fuel the fires of dissolution. The truth is out there people, we dream with our eyes open.....

[carlisle slapper]

In some ways all this is sad as its a sign of climbing growing up and the "magic" dying. by magic of course mean what seems to be a pattern of blokes who concocted a mystique of superhuman power. A power so magical it could only exist for minutes in the early hours and left the power bearer so exhausted  they were all but useless when it came to the photos. Of course DMM and Simmonite didn't know any better but its really only through their photos that the G stepped up from the likes of O' connor and gained notoriety off the back of those pics in the mags.
Things were much more amatuer back then and i think after speaking to them they were both just thankful for the pics, photographers tend to attempt to be neutral whilst essentially helping prove something with film. Imagine if Ray nipped to LPT for photos of Emma nowadays and she couldn't pull on big bang after doing it, never mind emma, we'l lower you off the bolt quickly, hang on for grim death and i'll take a picture of you sagging on the deadpoint and we will make it into a massive poster. It'd never happen nowadays but we were all lapping it up when it came to britains first self belayed 9a+ coincidentally just climbed before Steve did Overshadow pipping him to the record books. I mean its not even doping in that there's not even been any effort put in to superhuman performance whilst fizzing through his eyeballs on HGH etc, its just straight up british apologetic politeness mixed with a really outlandish claim, really top draw stuff which we as Brits can be proud of only as brits could be. In some ways it embodies that we are a very trusting nation. but looking back i'm glad climbing is such a holistic and intangible thing as i can't think of many other sports where the record books for the absolute limits of human performance are so easily tampered with.
Its right that this case clearly has a decent amount of grey in and John was evidently a good climber who did lots of interesting developing and i'm sure that John would've started at the thin end of the wedge of dropping a last move or not quite doing a sitter etc maybe he dabbed a leaf sought forgiveness so he just cracked on. But it clearly developed into repeating Si O's problems tit for tat (Si did do a fast repeat of Isla) and with problems like Shallow groove and attrocity exhibition being very early 2000s theres a good band of grey in there before you get to the WTF shadowplay stuff where he couldn't pull on or describe it after the claim.
I find a few of johns lines in the interview a bit sinister especially when he brags about 8C being an old grade nowadays. And  there's likely been an axe thats been ground somewhere. That old interview where he talks about his brother doing the moves on hubble who doesn't climb is an absolute classic.

I'm kind over over it all now anyway and a bit sick of Johns name popping up when really strong climbers get mentioned, that was what set off those posts before really, the man has done literally nothing in 20 years to demonstrate his ability to climb hard. Climbers like Ryan seem to be the complete opposite, he used to get absolutely off his face on a night out and still pulls 8Bs like cypher out the bag going off the intermediate in a session (extras footage in life on hold) I genuinely think Ryans effort on Shallow groove is awesome, it suits him to a tee as midgets can cruise the start but have never done the jump and i feel horribly bunched at the start and really struggle to pull my arse in upto the RH sidepull but I find the jump ok because i'm 6 ft and can deadhang small things. Again this is an issue of crossover but if you look at climbs like monklife and Isla as lumps of rock they are very doable (hence the multiple rpts). Shallow groove has a lot of serious hurdles to pass depending on your body type. If those weren't there it'd have had a lot more ascents but you can't do that top move any other way than jumping off the ledge and so theres a real height cut off on it. Arguably ryan wouldn't have had the vision or been arsed to do the FA so in many ways we've got John to thank there (and you Nige for dragging him out) and that's why this all ends up a bit messy and why i've been reticent to open the can as like it not he's really wood wormed into the history books. It only really matters when records, grades etc are spoken about. as far as just going climbing out at crags then Johns impact has been only a positive one and he certainly spurred on many younger types like myself, i just wish it were all true rather than it all being just a wee bit embarrassing for the credibility of the sport .

[Mr E S Capegoat]

Eeeesh I just spent 30 minutes on another JG X Files vid! WTF man

[carlisle slapper]

ah crap sorry

[webbo]

I thought Si O’Conner was supposed to be a bit of a punter. When John Watson of the Scottish bouldering guides went to climb with him. He found his problems that were graded in the high sevens turned out to be mid sixes and Si couldn’t do them.

[tomgreen]

So where does all this leave Moment of Clarity at Thorn Crag?

Do those in the know have any idea whether Gaskins actually did it? Has it had any repeats/‘repeats’? Is it the hardest route on grit (TM) or is it back to being one for the LGP thread?

[Fiend]

I thought Si O’Conner was supposed to be a bit of a demented fantastist. When John Watson of the Scottish bouldering guides went to climb with him. He found his problems that were graded in the high sevens turned out to be mid sixes and Si couldn’t do them.

I think as doylo and slapper have said, for a lot of these, there is a grey area. Pretty sure it's black and white for Si. IIRC when John W downgraded one of his problems from the mid eights to high sixes, there was some farcical excuse about not using the big holds despite them being in the middle of the problem. There was also a funny thing when Bonjoy spotted a cloned photo-shopped background in one of Si's black and white pictures.....

[Dave Flanagan]

So where does all this leave Moment of Clarity at Thorn Crag?

Surely if the authors of the guide to John's local area have omitted most of his hardest first ascents then there is some doubt cast over all his first ascents?

Has anyone talked to John since the publication of Lakes guide?

[cowboyhat]

etc...

Graciously put Dan.

With all the outrage and frothing its easy to forget that climbing has been until recently a quaint little pastime, and that there are humans in there lying for whatever reason, humans with issues.

Take Rich Simpson, a great example of the fact and fiction. Undeniably strong, but also apparently just very impatient. Seems to have subscribed to
'well I could do it so I'll just say I have'

Maybe one day they'll both get their issues sorted out, but as you've said it is a shame the impact its had on british climbing.

[Stewart]

Speaking of crossover Dan, have you ever tried any of DMacs harder stuff? Seven of Nine or Natural Method at Nevis which he both gave 8B+ to or some of his 8B's at Dumby, Sanction and Pressure. Obviously the logistics of trying something hard in Nevis is not the easiest but i believe you have some love for Dumby   

[Bonjoy]

It'd never happen nowadays but we were all lapping it up when it came to britains first self belayed 9a+ coincidentally just climbed before Steve did Overshadow pipping him to the record books.

Maybe you didn't hear it as you were too young and not in Sheffield, but there was always a healthy dose of scepticism about JG claims expressed down in the walls, pubs and crags round Sheff. Pretty much from the moment he appeared in the mags.

[teestub]

Although in Sheffield at that time there seemed to be a healthy dose of skepticism about anyone who didn’t live in Sheffield!