[mrjonathanr]

Let me know when you’re going to whack a bolt in a Green Death Fiend, it’s still on my tick list.

[webbo]

I thought the Green Death peg was in an improved hole then cemented in.

[mrjonathanr]

Indeed. It’s just that the peg dates from the same year as the moon landings always made me view it with a little suspicion.

[SamT]

Can't believe how timely this discussion is (worth splitting out from Bens new route news)

I was talking about the green death peg just last week in the works. 

The route has always been on my list.  But being short, I've always been put off by hints that clipping the peg is a bit spooky.

The incident on the london wall peg snapping has transformed my view on pegs at millstone and basically, I basically trust non of them and I suppose now, you have to treat them as though they're going to snap if you fall on them, (raising the question of whats the point)

And so to the green death peg.  I was wondering, since it was cemented in the first place, what is the opinion of replacing it with a carefully crafted, stainless replacement, resined in.

I assume if done without consent (say an area meeting vote), it would cause uproar and get removed over night, just like the keyhole cave 'lower off' stake recently.

My thinking was to go and bounce test it, from just above the ground.  Which led me to think, well what if it snapped.  Could you then justify replacing it, or would GD then be reduced to a solo.

The guy I was talking to at the works had done GD years ago and reckoned that you'd never really fall off having clipped it anyway, but the climbing is a bit awkward, and so I wondered if anyone had actually ever fallen off on the peg??

Not sure really.  I'd just love to do the route, and enjoy it, with a peg that was there as psychological back up, but one that was worth trusting.

Just found this - which is an interesting summary...

https://johnroberts.me/outdoors/2015/06/whose-ethic-is-it-anyway-a-climbers-history-of-millstone/

[mrjonathanr]

My view is that it’s basically a solo with a bit of psychological pro and that one day it will be a solo without any pro at all. Indeed, it might be better for it, rather than someone trusting it and finding out how weak the peg is the hard way.

From your post, you like me, haven’t pre-inspected the thing. It will need loads of confidence to venture up there- something which possibly may not happen- but I’d rather not do it than come in from the top.

[SamT]

My view is that it’s basically a solo with a bit of psychological pro and that one day it will be a solo without any pro at all. Indeed, it might be better for it, rather than someone trusting it and finding out how weak the peg is the hard way.

So to save someone (me possibly) from life changing injuries, we may as well just remove any doubt and chop the peg then. Non?

[mrjonathanr]

I think we should leave it to rust away and when it goes completely it will be clearer what you’re up against. Have a bounce, let me know how it goes!

[nai]

I'd just love to do the route, and enjoy it, with a peg that was there as psychological back up, but one that was worth trusting.

I've always thought putting a roller biner on a potentially dodgy peg might help ensure a soft catch and reduce the chance of it failing, providing the fallout zone is adaquate?

If you can stretch ethics a bit how about build a belay on top and extend it to the same point as the peg?

Good effort, Ben, looks a great new addition.

[SamT]

Extended belay seems like a workable option.  No more ethic stretching than clipping a drilled out cemented in peg.

Bit contrived maybe.

I might have a gentle bounce on it. see how it fares.

[lurcher]

Extended belay seems like a workable option.  No more ethic stretching than clipping a drilled out cemented in peg.

Bit contrived maybe.

I might have a gentle bounce on it. see how it fares.

Sam I think the extended belay defo bit contrived, might spoil the experience .

If you want someone fatter to bounce test it give me a shout.!

Although was 25 years ago I definitely remember the moves having clipped the peg being a  bit trickier than I was expecting.

Can't see why replacing peg like for like would be a problem.  .

digressing from original thread, effort Bransby.

[webbo]

My view is that it’s basically a solo with a bit of psychological pro and that one day it will be a solo without any pro at all. Indeed, it might be better for it, rather than someone trusting it and finding out how weak the peg is the hard way.

So to save someone (me possibly) from life changing injuries, we may as well just remove any doubt and chop the peg then. Non?

When  Birtles did the bottom pitch of Great Arete he used it pendulum to the right arete, however that was in the last century.

[kingholmesy]

Extended belay seems like a workable option.  No more ethic stretching than clipping a drilled out cemented in peg.

Bit contrived maybe.

More than a bit!

[grimer]

Re: Green Death - Donie led it one night and, while passing the peg, called out that it was held in by a piece of cardboard. He then climbed smoothly to the top making it look easy. I decided to have a go. I couldn't do the fingery boulder problem start so stood on Pat's shoulder to get past it. I climbed warily to the cardboard peg and, without looking at it, cliped the draw (long reach if i remember). I climbed on. But, with hands on the top of the route, I began to struggle on the exit mantel. I started to pump out and slowed right down. I had to hold a position for ten breaths, then press it out another couple of inches, hold it, press, hold it press. All the time thinking If I blow this the peg won't hold. After 6 or 7 minutes I finished the mantel but it was really scary.

I abbed down to get the draw out of the peg then saw it wasn't cardboard but really solidly cemented in, basically like a bolt. But I also had an old orange size-half flexible Friend. There is a small break beside the peg and I managed to place the cam and it seemed shallow but fairly solid.

So this was a long time ago, but my point is that there might be gear to back up the peg, especially with newer micro cams.

[mrjonathanr]

You’re giving me the fear reading that Grimer, back-up cam or not!

[grimer]

I mean, I'm not aware of anyone else finding the exit hard, but my Deadometer was nudging up into the 8s or 9s.The last time that has happened was three feet below the top of Suspense.

[SamT]

Interesting.

I'll be having a look sometime soon so will report back.

(PS - can, as I originally suggested, the mods split this discussion into its own thread).

[SA Chris]

I mean, I'm not aware of anyone else finding the exit hard, but my Deadometer was nudging up into the 8s or 9s.

You must have a knack for finding difficulty where others don't

[Fiend]

  how on Earth can someone not do the start but have the balls to do the rest of it (having been told the peg was toss)?? Grimer you were trying the normal start left of the corner and not the 6c/7a corner problem, right??

[shark]

IIRC Proctor first climbed Green Death solo and added the peg later.

[webbo]

IIRC Proctor first climbed Green Death solo and added the peg later.

The first ascents list in the guide book doesn’t indicate this. It lists Tom Proctor, Keith Myhill
and says they started from a pile of stones.

[webbo]

Right from the horses mouth.
“ I abseiled down and put the peg in a little slot four inches wide and two inches deep. I put the peg in and tied it off, went down to the bottom and there was a big boulder at the bottom, leaning against the wall. I just started off that and led it. It took me all day”.
By the mid 70’s when it began to receive attention( after incidentally, Proctor had cemented the peg to make it worthwhile) its reputation had become legendary.
Peak Rock page 134.

[shark]

Ok thanks - so a peg was clipped on the FA it was just the cementing of the peg that came later.

[webbo]

Tom failed to top rope it before he led it, saying he didn’t trust the top rope.

[grimer]

Fiend - yes, I was trying any start I could.

[shark]

Just looked it up in my 1983 Stanage Millstone guide.

Says: “This was a magnificent creation by Tom Proctor. At the time it was such a horror show that it had still not been repeated in 1974 when Proctor was filmed leading it. It only began to receive attention when the joke peg runner was cemented in”

[Steve R]

re. doing anything with the peg - not sure exactly why but personally I'd prefer the route just left as it is.  Just treat the peg as probably worthless but may as well clip it sort of thing.  Went up there without a rope and bottled it, tried again another day with a rope and still bottled it.  Wiggy route!

[Steve R]

I've always thought putting a roller biner on a potentially dodgy peg might help ensure a soft catch and reduce the chance of it failing, providing the fallout zone is adaquate?

From memory, I thought roller biners increased max force?  Intuition agrees with memory but could be wrong...
ripper sling + stretchy 1/2 rope would help.
For something like green death (where you're presumably not that far from the gear) when in extremis and falling off best bet would probably be to make a grab for the draw or belayer's side of the rope to 'catch yourself' then lower hand over hand.  half the forces compared to belayer catching you int it

[Fiend]

LOL. Please make sure it's filmed when you do that. The logic is indeed there but it would look quite spectacular. Plus rope burns etc.

[SA Chris]

A grab for the 'draw would shock load the peg with a much higher load than a soft catch surely, and probably damage your arm / hand?

[grimer]

Doesn't Extreme Rock talk about someone going up it after a few pints in the Fox House and falling off and fucking themselves up?

[webbo]

Doesn't Extreme Rock talk about someone going up it after a few pints in the Fox House and falling off and fucking themselves up?

Keith Myhill.

[Don Jebus]

Some how drifted onto this thread from the one on Bransby's route. Not that I'm much of trad climber but it intrigued me, so I thought I'd see what info there was.

If you go to the 'other channel' and check the log book there is quite a bit of info regarding the peg. Supposedly a grey camalot will fit to back it up. Rob Greenwood also wrote this "Abbed down to check the peg beforehand. Considering its age it looked ok, didn't realise it was concreted in either! Could be backed up well with a large Alien."

Sounds like the peg, which is cemented, can be backed up. Maybe just go for it? 

[cheque]

Keith Myhill seconded the first ascent, went back to do it himself but still fell off before he reached the peg I think. There used to be a photo on the other channel of him in hospital with his leg in traction after the event. 4-5 months in traction if you broke your femur in those days...

[petejh]

For something like green death (where you're presumably not that far from the gear) when in extremis and falling off best bet would probably be to make a grab for the draw or belayer's side of the rope to 'catch yourself' then lower hand over hand.  half the forces compared to belayer catching you int it

AKA 'Doing a Honnold':

Alex stopped his fall [while simu-climbing during a speed ascent on El Cap] by catching the rope on the other side of his gear with his bare hands and suffered a rope burn.

https://rockandice.com/opinion/unsafe-at-speed/?cn-reloaded=1

[SA Chris]

He was lucky with just burns, weaker hands could have taken it down to the bone.

[ashtond6]

there is a good, normal sized cam, right next to the peg.

[SamT]

Thanks for all the beta guys - will have an ab one day, inspect peg and check out the gear.  More than happy with backing up the peg with a small cam.