[tommytwotone]

Do away with grades for difficulty in favour of how good / satisfying something is?

I've definitely done stuff at the top of my grade (and TBF, been happy with the ego-tick / HALAM etc) that wasn't even 1% as satisfying as doing Crescent Arete again.

[Fiend]

And although I am quite the Adonis, throbbing muscles don't necessarily equate to functional strength or power.

Now that's my new motto!!

Do away with grades for difficulty in favour of how good / satisfying something is?

I've definitely done stuff at the top of my grade (and TBF, been happy with the ego-tick / HALAM etc) that wasn't even 1% as satisfying as doing Crescent Arete again.

LOL, that will never catch on. Can you imagine anyone choosing a 3 star hard-for-the-grade 7A+ over a 1 start soft 7C eliminate?? Barbaric 1980s shit that.

[Fiend]

The issue with Will is - with all due respect - he's a punter trapped inside a good climber's body. Inside he still views himself as that half-arsed keen youth who mashed himself on some Froggatt E2 (and maybe others think the same), but in reality he's suddenly found himself in a highly optimal slightly-above-average-height body with a positive (a few inches? many?) ape index, and the utterly crucial "scrawny" frame with those puny muscles no doubt very effective per mass at pulling hard on minging gritstone slopers. Who knows there might even be technique and flexibility too. It must be quite confusing hence the determination to avoid admitting he can actually climb quite hard, and finding a difficult balancing act trying to avoid score-card padding while simultaneously trying to give a fair assessment of all these obscure badly-graded Yorkshire gems...



Cheque: that was mostly about adjectival trad grades which are thankfully a matter of objective fact corresponding to realities in the world e.g. existence or otherwise of protection, rest ledges, visible lines, solid rock, exposure etc etc.

[abarro81]

I've not bothered to read all this thread... but in the real world, I think most people just grade things on how they feel for them, compared (broadly) to other things in a similar style. No more, no less.

[JamieG]

I think one problem is that people are almost always much happier to downgrade a problem they found easy than upgrade one they found hard. Which tends to a lead to a general slide of grades in one direction. In fact we proudly call some problems 'classic sandbags' rather than admitting they're probably under-graded.

[Fiend]

Accuracy is almost as much a lost cause as TTT's quality focus...

[Rob F]

Of the 2 boulder problems of mine that Will repeated last year, Will downgraded one (lank) and very tentatively almost upgraded the other (core intensive). I personally don't see a slide one way or another...

[Will Hunt]

Bull Rider was the corey one. What was the other?

P.S. the idea that you can be outlanked by anybody is preposterous!

[Wood FT]

The issue with Will is - with all due respect - he's a punter trapped inside a good climber's body. Inside he still views himself as that half-arsed keen youth who mashed himself on some Froggatt E2 (and maybe others think the same), but in reality he's suddenly found himself in a highly optimal slightly-above-average-height body with a positive (a few inches? many?) ape index, and the utterly crucial "scrawny" frame with those puny muscles no doubt very effective per mass at pulling hard on minging gritstone slopers. Who knows there might even be technique and flexibility too. It must be quite confusing hence the determination to avoid admitting he can actually climb quite hard, and finding a difficult balancing act trying to avoid score-card padding while simultaneously trying to give a fair assessment of all these obscure badly-graded Yorkshire gems...



Cheque: that was mostly about adjectival trad grades which are thankfully a matter of objective fact corresponding to realities in the world e.g. existence or otherwise of protection, rest ledges, visible lines, solid rock, exposure etc etc.

Solid post

[Rob F]

Hangingstone Dyno, a problem for proper lanksters...

[crimpinainteasy]

Grades are always at best a best a rough indication of difficulty and are often pretty meaningless beyond a certain point.

 A good example is deliverance which probably varies at least 2 grades depending on height and reach (7A/+ for the tall 7B for average height people, and 7B+ if you're short)

Equally there are problems which involve pulling on minging crimps, and are absolutely desperate if you don't have baby sized fingers.

[Rob F]

It was always a bit of a laugh and a joke, but now the peaks gotten downgraded it's all gone a bit serious...

[Fiend]

Christ, I know. Can you imagine, there might be some poor sod reading the Power Club gobbledegook and actually taking it seriously instead of the giant pisstake it is. Still, I guess if that poor sod doesn't have anything to do with writing guidebooks then it might all blow over....

[Fiend]

On the subject of height, why does nobody ever mention the massive advantage that is conferred on shorter climbers on any terrain that isn't reachy. Their natural power to weight ratio is much better

I weighed myself on Monday and discovered myself to be 69kg, some 5kg heavier than I was whenever the last time I weighed myself was (Ed: 64kg then)

 

Well it's all making sense. FWIW The Ondra is 5'11" and 70kg-ish fighting weight with his chunky big-waller legs, and at least 2" of the extra height is neck length so hardly a reach advantage.

The question isn't "Why is Will pissing up a load of 7Bs and downgrading them all??" , it's "Why isn't Will pissing up a load of 8Bs and downgrading them??" . Seriously Will get on something that's actually difficult and put that highly optimal (and desirable) lank and scrawn to good use. It might even be more fun when you're not grossly underperforming.



Meanwhile I'm off to downgrade some HSes (that happen to suit someone who is 5'8" and actually 79kg (not a typo)...toodle-ooo!

[tomtom]

Only 79kg? 😂😛

[Fiend]

Yes....

If you retreat to a zen meditative spa for, say, 3 months, to cleanse your mind of all other thoughts, you might have the quantum-computing level of brainpower available to calculate just what a colossal sore point and gigantic source of constant frustration that is. It may involve imaginary numbers (which can then be downgraded blah blah)

[tomtom]

Retreat to a child free existence for 3 months more like 😃

It was a cheap shot. Sorry. Strap me in a 10kg weight vest next time we go out climbing...

[Fiend]

Child free and zen like calm are probably very similar - and hypothetical - ideologies for many semi-recent parents!

Anyway the correct response is "Yes Fiend, we know, because you keep fucking bleating on about it". To which my reply is of course "Whatever, I will stop fucking bleating on about my weigh when, say, Shark stops bleating on about the fucking Oak*".


* - edit: unless of course he actually does the damn thing and does indeed stop mentioning it, after in the obligatory year of celebrating such a glorious destination after 12/13/27 years of miserable journey, in which case I'll go back on my word.


But back on topic, my point is the same as previous: Will is pretty good, for obvious reasons, and the downgrading nonsense is because he's quite a bit better than the bloques he's tinkering around on. Mystery solved.

[Fiend]

P.S. You stopped going out climbing with me....because I've been contaminated by climbing with Gapescrote, right??

[tomtom]

P.S. You stopped going out climbing with me....because I've been contaminated by climbing with Gapescrote, right??

Nope - just time and location etc...

plus - I like esoterica but... 😃

[Fiend]

You got me up to bloody Blackstone Edge!!!

[tomtom]

You got me up to bloody Blackstone Edge!!!

Thats not esoteric - just got a long walk in If it were 5 min from the car and 15 min from sheffield centre it would be rammed..

[Will Hunt]

Matt, by all means go and do one of these problems some time. Then your opinion may be worth more than nothing.

[Fiend]

Opinion? I've cleared the whole bloody mess up. Everyone should be relieved. Especially you, go fill up your 8a.nu scorecard with a clear conscience.



TT - anything would be rammed if it was 5 mins car / 15 mins Sheff, people climb at the The Tor and Horseshoe ffs.

[JamieG]

Being a nerd I decided to test my hypothesis that people are happier to downgrade than upgrade a problem. I took the top twenty problems on peakbouldering.info and compared their current guidebook grade against how people had voted.

The average grade discrepancy was a downgrade of -0.08526 (where -1 grade would be 7a+ to 7a). Needless to say it is not statistically significant.

So there you are Will, downgrade to your heart's content, backed up by dodgy science!