[abarro81]

I’m saying it’s an alienating experience. Not just the energy systems thing but the whole shebang. It’s a capitalist construct in sport.

Alienating from who/what? I find as much camaraderie in it as alienation, though perhaps you mean alienating from myself/some aspect of an experience?

What is the whole shebang? You mean lattice? Or training full stop? Or climbing indoors?

What's a capitalist construct? Training per se? Even back when it was the Hubers smashing out sets on their home board with nothing to sell to anyone?

it’s like a religion, it owns you in that way

Really? Why?

Is ukb really den of climbing capitalists with no one other than me questioning all this. Can’t believe that.

The more you write coherent and explained posts and the less you write self-congratulatory, pseudo-intellectual bollocks the better a response you'll get. Your above post is much, much better than normal in this respect, though still leaves me mostly asking questions to clarify what you mean rather than being able to think properly about what you're saying...

[Johnny Brown]

Is ukb really den of climbing capitalists with no one other than me questioning all this

No, but those of us who aren't into 'performance' are mostly not daft enough to sign up for a training programme and then moan about it. Having said that my climbing does embed elements of performance in both senses of the word. But nothing Lattice is gonna help me with.

[Mr E S Capegoat]

I totally agree signing up to a training program and then coming on here to moan about it - is / was a questionable idea.

[Yossarian]

On the contrary...

When my 4 year old next complains about having to do his homework before he gets any TV, I’m going to tell him that rather than just suck it up, he could act like a grown-up I’ve heard of who turned his displeasure into an elaborate and long-term performance art project. I will suggest that, if he likes, he could launch a counter-cultural magazine to poke fun at his teachers, and then loudly announce that the entire basis of education is invalid because of some lunch break conspiracy theory he came up with over a jacket potato.

[seankenny]

I would rather watch a video of that exchange than ever even glance at a thread like this again.

[Mr E S Capegoat]

I honestly don’t have a problem with training, as a past time or as a tool to make you a ‘better’ climber whatever your individual definition of better is. The current market of training, training programs, spin off marketing, podcasts and product placement etc etc is operating in a capitalist system. If by being on a training program that costs £60 a month and owning all the correct things, specialist chalk, most expensive boots, lightest rope etc led to a person being a significantly better ‘performer’ based on the cultures numerical system of worth, then there would be and is a situation of ‘haves’ and ‘have-nots’.

The process is alienating in various ways. Two ways spring to mind. The appropriation of grades. There used to be a common piss take among friends that a particular person or another was referred to as ‘he’s an 8c climber’ in hushed tones and jokey reverence. This process when taken seriously as it mostly is abstracts the human being or self into a made up numerical thing.
The other process of alienation is akin to a conveyor belt or production line situation, where the individual is making motions designed by the minds of others and delivered on mass. There is also a contagion here. Like rolling one trouser leg up or wearing your jacket back to front. In this way the other- abstract object (in terms of grades) or other person (in terms of coach etc) has significant control or ‘ownership’ of the persons sense of self. They are not truly themselves. In this way it begins to operate like a religion, there are idols, symbols, mechanisms of control, herd like behaviour etc etc which can be seen to replace the vicar managing his congregation and the system of religion owning part of the person.
It’s interesting that yossarian’s piss taking effort above mentions the education system. As I would argue this is at the heart of a lot of ills, particularly with its basis in behaviourism and its systems of reward and punishment which are of course so helpful in creating healthy human beings.
Adam - just to confirm. Does your post relate to it being ‘daft’ to critically appraise anything you’ve paid for in life. Like a bad meal or movie or a shitty course of education. Or is it just complaining on ukb that is daft?

[mrjonathanr]

To me the whole point of climbing is its anarchy. If someone wants to bastardise it as a measurable commodity/conform to what people say you 'should' do then to me that's a shame but really fine, no problem, go for it.

For the rest of us the hills are still there to have fun.

[Mr E S Capegoat]

It’s a capitalist construct in sport.

Hasn’t sport been about performance since before capitalism was a thing?

Your argument always seems to be for one or the other not both. I think that people can have similar experiences to what I assume you desire out of climbing and pursue performance.

Sport is a useful mass control device, capitalism and sport now go hand in hand in the uk. I’m not arguing anything really. Just expressing personal experiences and ideas. More of a curiosity. I’d never want anyone to have an experience based on my idea of what that should be. Sounds awful, so if it comes across like I’m saying I’m right and you lot are wrong. Which it might do as it’s like saying your god doesn’t exist. I’m only raising an eyebrow at the current state of things. Fortunately we’re at least superficially free to experience what we please.

[Fiend]

No, but those of us who aren't into 'performance' are mostly not daft enough to sign up for a training programme and then moan about it.

Gotta love the smell of smouldering Cheetham in the afternoon.....smells like victory... 

[abarro81]

If by being on a training program that costs £60 a month and owning all the correct things, specialist chalk, most expensive boots, lightest rope etc led to a person being a significantly better ‘performer’ based on the cultures numerical system of worth, then there would be and is a situation of ‘haves’ and ‘have-nots’.

The free time to go climbing, the money to jet around the world, the money to retire early, the money and opportunity to take years off... training program costs are the least of your worries vs these...

Interestingly, it seems mostly you dislike the things that come with people coaching others. The bulk of your critique doesn't work so well for someone making their own plan.

p.s. no-one I know who isn't a beginner says "he's an 8c climber", they say "he's climbed some 8cs"

[Mr E S Capegoat]

No, but those of us who aren't into 'performance' are mostly not daft enough to sign up for a training programme and then moan about it.

Gotta love the smell of smouldering Cheetham in the afternoon.....smells like victory... 

You can now remove tongue from crack

[Mr E S Capegoat]

If by being on a training program that costs £60 a month and owning all the correct things, specialist chalk, most expensive boots, lightest rope etc led to a person being a significantly better ‘performer’ based on the cultures numerical system of worth, then there would be and is a situation of ‘haves’ and ‘have-nots’.

The free time to go climbing, the money to jet around the world, the money to retire early, the money and opportunity to take years off... training program costs are the least of your worries vs these...

Interestingly, it seems mostly you dislike the things that come with people coaching others. The bulk of your critique doesn't work so well for someone making their own plan.

p.s. no-one I know who isn't a beginner says "he's an 8c climber", they say "he's climbed some 8cs"

Yep, your desire for free time and ability to enjoy it has been commoditised. I totally agree

[SA Chris]

Sport is a useful mass control device, capitalism and sport now go hand in hand in the uk.

I'm getting drawn in now, but when you say capitalism, surely you mean commercialism?

[Oldmanmatt]

Dan,

Has it even occurred to you to put down your laptop, stop reading magazines and stop agonising over other people’s motivations and inner monologues?

I’ve never come across someone as dependent on the opinions of others, for their own mental well-being. What’s worse, is that it’s not even other people’s opinion of you, that troubles you so; it’s their opinions on almost every aspect of their own lives! You seem utterly unable to accept that other people might not (or might not want) to see life through your specific lenses.

Let it go, dude.

[Mr E S Capegoat]

I appreciate it Matt, but I’m just here expressing some views and chatting about it. There’s little angst beyond the normal annoyances of debate going on. I enjoy reading and thinking about these things, it’s a big part of my life. I’m not saying I don’t invest a lot of myself in what others think. However if I wanted to stay safe with that I’d just be nodding my head and posting in power club. Keeping it all as ‘accurate and dull as possible’ nothing to trip up and hurt yourself on if you get me.

[Mr E S Capegoat]

Sport is a useful mass control device, capitalism and sport now go hand in hand in the uk.

I'm getting drawn in now, but when you say capitalism, surely you mean commercialism?

I’m not sure Chris? I thought commercialism was the process of bringing something into the mainstream and monetising it through various channels. And that operates within a capitalist framework like our current neoliberal situation. I mean these are just facts of the situation. Like the cost to get in a climbing wall or buy a pair of boots etc. 

[Mr E S Capegoat]

Just to add Matt, I was at the wall today with my daughter, and met TomTom and Fiend. I had a genuine warmth for both of these lovely blokes which has very little to do with what I think about the bigger issues here. We had a nice chat and some climbing happened, I felt quite happy.

[Fiend]

Just to add Matt, I was at the wall today with my daughter, and met TomTom and Fiend, both of whom went to the 50 board and campus board respectively, at the far end of the wall, to avoid me.

 

[Mr E S Capegoat]

Cnut

[moose]

I found my own interaction with Lattice pretty entertaining. I got a free assessment that informed me that whilst I was shit, I was less shit than I should be.  I like to think that such margins are where the magic of climbing lives.  An intangible zone where low cunning can overcome lots of weaknesses by the targeted application of (paltry) strength.  Or, less romantically, their model just didn't quite handle a physical outlier and a bigger data set will eventually make everyone depressingly predictable.

[Mr E S Capegoat]

Brave new world

[Mr E S Capegoat]

Bearing all this in mind, I wonder how many grades lettuce full is worth when compared to lettuce lite? It would be interesting to see the ‘data’ on this. Cost per slash grade and sliding scales for soft touches. I wonder whether a lettuce training camp delivered by elite lettucers could be a thing? Maybe it could be held on a private island a bit similar to Richard Branson or even the Thunderbirds? Policed by those who have climbed ‘some 8c’s’ and above. Indicating they are not ‘beginners’ but serious lettucers. Fiend would make a perfect arch nemesis with his shaven pate and no nonsense blog. Just get him stroking a white moggy and basting himself in antihydral while bitching about head pointers. When the end of the world approaches a lettuce ark could be built and only true acolytes could mount 2 by 2 to start an idyllic community on fucking Mars.

[webbo]

Have you been dipping into the drug trolley again.

[Fiend]

I'm betting gin. It's got that introspective / flamboyance dichotomy. 

[Mr E S Capegoat]

Just a healthy dose of ‘fuck you’