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2019 December General Election (Read 56667 times)

TobyD

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#900 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 19, 2019, 10:37:45 pm
Pilger's NHS documentatry featured a guy who said his private hospital looked lovely but had the same problem as most... when the operation went badly wrong, it nearly killed him, the NHS were left to fix things as the private hospital rarely have that cost covered (to maximise profits.......  running a hospital like a hotel is important to the private health market....
My girlfriend worked on the Critical Care ward at the Northern General for a couple of years. I was quite shocked to hear one day that a patient was rushed in from a simple operation gone wrong in a private hospital, (they hadn't checked if the patient was haemophiliac and was therefor bleeding uncontrollably), they just phoned for an ambulance and leave the NHS to sort it out. But apparently things like that are not uncommon.  :slap:

I appreciate that, and very infrequent mistakes must happen in any system in routine operations. But it's not two totally different systems, the private provider hospital won't have an a+e department anyway. Many consultants work privately and for the NHS, and both sets of patients get exactly the same thing. I'm not saying private provision is a great thing per se, just that it seems like a useful adjunct to a functioning healthcare service.

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#901 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 20, 2019, 09:53:42 am
One of the biggest issues for NHS trusts is making sure they might the targets set by commissioners of services. Clearly trusts need to prove they spend the money they receive for providing services appropriately but there are so many targets and the penalties for not meeting them mean reduced funding.
Trusts now have departments of administrators just to ensure this happens, to the extent that in the NHS. It is one Clinician to one admin where as in the private sector itís one admin to 5 Clinicians. (Or it was a few years ago)
Then there is the annual cost saving trusts have to do i.e reduce their spending by a certain percentage each year on exsisting services. So they seek to provide new services even though they may not equipped to provide them. So they get funding which helps keep things running.
I worked for a team that was getting new NHS funding to expand services to enable people to be assessed and treated much quicker.
When we spoke to commissioners about when we would get the money, they said the trusts already got it. On further exploration it appeared actually no money changed hands the trust used against the cost saving. Instead of getting 100K they could reduce the cost saving by 200K.
Yet people wonder why itís fucked

galpinos

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#902 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 20, 2019, 09:55:59 am
I appreciate that, and very infrequent mistakes must happen in any system in routine operations.

It's not an A&E department (plenty of non-DGHs don't have A&E) but critical care/appropriate team to deal with issues. My mum had both hips replaced on the NHS but subbed out to a local private hospital and the first thing I did was check the facitiles if things went wrong (poor), then the distance to the nearest DGH (very short) and ambulance response times (good). Private hospitals are very focused on the "service" side (catering etc) which gives very good patient feedback for minimal cost compared to having to pay specialist doctors to deal with cock ups.

But it's not two totally different systems, the private provider hospital won't have an a+e department anyway. Many consultants work privately and for the NHS, and both sets of patients get exactly the same thing. I'm not saying private provision is a great thing per se, just that it seems like a useful adjunct to a functioning healthcare service.

Private practice is an odd mix. Plenty of the doctors do both and the only difference is the hospital/experience being nicer but some doctors are 100% private. I was flicking through channels on the telly and stopped on a programme about "Harley Street" only for my wife to see a former colleague who had failed to get a Consultant Post being described a s world leader in his field (he wasn't).

My opinion is that at current levels of funding and the general British appetite for increased taxation (low), private practice will be required for "quality of life" procedures and services. This is a more expensive route than doing it via the NHS (an amazingly efficient organisation bearing in mind it's size and fragmentation) but the electorate aren't willing to properly fund it*.

*or anything really. We want better schools, hospitals, public transport but no one is willing to put their hand in their pocket and pay. If Labour really want trans formative public sector services, they need to run on the policy that we ALL need to pay for them. The richer will pay more, but everyone needs to chip in and just demonising the well off if a sure fire way to entrench division and lose votes IMHO.

mrjonathanr

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#903 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 20, 2019, 10:30:55 am
Agreed.

tomtom

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#904 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 20, 2019, 10:47:12 am
My main experiences were diagnosis and treatment for skin cancer (which turned out to be benign).

Doctors referral > call centre >> arrange appt at random surgery in S Manchester >> take photos of dodgy looking bit >> wait >> call centre >> letter >> appointment letter >> call centre (x 5 to arrange appointment)

>> minor surgery in room in random local GPís (with zero sound proofing - I pointed out to nurse and doctor that I could hear word for word what he said to the previous patient (including her name and address). Anyway - surgery went well.
>> next day stitches split - 10 p size open hole in my back. Call centre useless - went to minor injuries.
>> 5x daily visits to minor injuries (I got to know them well) to pack out wound
>> no response or accountability for my complaints or issues.

Basically - I was ok and managed to hustle the process along as I was insistent and pushy. The Ďold ladyí example would have waited months for anything to be done...

Also - the call centre (in London) dealt with sensitive and potentially hurtful news/data and when relaying the news that I did not have skin cancer the guy on the phone didnít give a shit (reading from screen) and there was loads of laughing and people arsong about in the background. Twice - I asked to speak to a supervisor and told them of this.

And this is my biggest gripe with outsourcing stuff like this. When it works - itís fine. Great. But there is little or no accountability - tracibility or recourse. Itís just another companyís problem. With in NHS stuff Iíve had one consultant ring up another (at another hospital) and tell them in front of me what theyíve done wrong. They know each other - and how each other operates. I posted something about this earlier in the thread (institutional memory) and itís really important to how a large organisation operates. Continuity in people and practice makes things far more efficient. Rather than a switchboard at a call centre logging your enquiry.

This is whatís happened in the probation service (wifeís former profession) and from some of my research in the water industry (and repeat with many other examples ime sure).

Sorry for the semi rant -

TobyD

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#905 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 20, 2019, 12:43:49 pm
Good reply Nick, I agree, people in general always say that they want better public services, especially health. They say that they're willing to pay for it, but always when it comes to an election, they vote for whoever is saying that they'll cut taxes.

At what time does this thread need to be mothballed and restarted as a politics thread? I notice that in today's parliament debate the SNP is providing rather better opposition than certainly the labour front bench. Corbyn now seems to be hanging around like a bad smell and serving as a  general Tory punchbag.

Oldmanmatt

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#906 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 20, 2019, 01:03:14 pm
Just change the thread title?

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#907 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 20, 2019, 01:21:05 pm
Re Labour "period of reflection" some interesting comment in the Times yesterday based on a new short book about the beliefs of the hard Corbynite Left.

It makes the point that the Far Left populism (same can be applied to the Far Right populism) does not fall down on their policy ideas as much as their attitudes. The way they understand the world and communicate their vision is hindered by three destructive myths hypothesised in the book as the Dark Knight, the Puppet Master and the Golden Age that are at odds with how the world actually works and operates.

Dark Knight - struggle between light and dark, good and evil, leaving tick marks etc. From this springs a belief that those who disagree with you are not only wrong but immoral. "Tories are all scum" etc 

Puppet Master - making sense of a world where what you are doing is right and in the peoples interest but somehow doesn't gain traction can only mean that hidden powerful forces are against you - Billionaire Media owners, BBC, George Soros, Global Zionist conspiracy etc. This goes 'hand in glove' with the notion that government is omnipotent and politics is easy rather than a messy shifting business of compromises and priorities.   

Golden Age - that there was a better time once with Corbynite Left blaming that we only moved away from it because of the neo-Liberalism and Thatcher

Though it was interesting but not interesting enough to buy the book. thought a lot of it resonated with a lot of the intolerant black and white stuff I've seen on social media over the last few years


mrjonathanr

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#908 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 20, 2019, 01:50:15 pm
A book about over-simplication which simplifies things into archetypes.

Post-modernism at its best. Cool.

petejh

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#909 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 20, 2019, 02:07:44 pm
That sounds like it quite accurately describes the worldview of a few people I know in N.Wales who are Ďenthusiasticí anti-social media reporters of their opinions.

TobyD

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#910 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 20, 2019, 10:51:07 pm
An interesting perspective on how / why various constituencies were won or lost,
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2019/12/labour-knows-where-it-lost-isnt-clear-who-it-lost

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#911 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 23, 2019, 10:22:24 pm
Interesting to see more Labour figures in the news today blaming their Brexit position for the defeat. Iím sure someone somewhere has done the maths, but:
- back a second referendum and lose leave backing northern seats.
- back leaving without any further referendum and lose your metropolitan remain supporting seats?

Hard to think of a strategy besides the compromise they went for that would have satisfied all the previously Labour areas.
The obvious thing to do, if you were Remain, was to get out and try to convince Leavers in your vulnerable seats that Brexit was a bad idea. They had 3 years to do this! Only Corbyn's wanky lukewarm support for Remain stopped this. There was a BBC programme, or a section, with a report from Sutton in Ashfield. They had a sort of truth and reconciliation thing, trying to bring both sides of the party together. Local MP Gloria de Piero of course, left the party due mounting intolerance and the seat fell to the Tories. The gap between the 2 sides was huge, Leave Labour members talking of betrayal etc. If that was party members they should have realised that it would be worst among Labour voters without party loyalty.

Although in post poll surveys voters said Corbyn was the problem, not Brexit by a ratio of more than 2 to 1.

mrjonathanr

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#912 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 28, 2019, 11:56:51 pm
Interesting article on issues around Corbynís suitability as leader of the LP. Deftly sums up a lot of issues raised during the election. Written in 2015.
https://thequietus.com/articles/18714-jeremy-corbyn-labour-election-rally-policies

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#913 Re: 2019 December General Election
January 16, 2020, 01:36:22 pm
A final reminder of some seats lost by well under 1000 votes, many with good moderate Labour MPs,  the majority as progressives couldn't bring themselves to vote Labour, even with the very real threat of Boris as an altenative. Hopefully this might get progressives in marginals to think more carefully about tactical voting next time (and stop blaming working class Labour voters in the north who switched to the tories).
 
High Peak... Ruth tops my list as a moderate and a supporter of interests in common with the BMC. Lost by under 600 votes with nearly 4000 voting Lib Dem and Green.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Peak_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

Carshalton and Wallington... Tom, a good Liberal MP, lost by just over 600. Labour polled over 6000.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carshalton_and_Wallington_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

Gedling... Vernon was a well known leading moderate in my next door constituency, lost by less than 700, with over 4000 voting Lib Dem or Green.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gedling_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

Bury North.  Labour lost  by only just over a hundred with over 2000 voting Lib Dem or Green.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bury_North_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

Heywood and Middleton.. Jim Callahan's old seat... Labour lost by under 700 lib Dems and G4eens over 3000
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heywood_and_Middleton_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

Kensington..... Labour lost by 150 with Sam Grimah over 9000... genuine 3 way seat with misleading local polling so forgivable.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensington_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

Wimbledon another 3 way: Lib Dems lost by just over 600 with Labour over 12000
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wimbledon_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

Blyth Valley... Labour lost...  just over 700 majority, over 3000 voted  Lib Dem or Green.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blyth_Valley_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

Bolton NE... Labour lost by under 400 with over two and a half thousand voting Lib Dem or Green
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolton_North_East_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

Bury South.. Labour lost by just over 400 with 3000 voting  Lib Dems or Greens (and the old Labour MP who stood as  Independent getting just over a thosand).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bury_South_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

Moray  SNP lost by just over 500. Well over 4000 voted Labour or Lib Dem
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moray_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

Plus one important one closer to the thousand:

West Aberdeenshire: majority under 900, SNP lost, over 8000 voted Lib Dem or Labour
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Aberdeenshire_and_Kincardine_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

There are another 20+ with majorities where tactical voting could have helped, with some big tory scalps, and leaving Boris with a thin majority (where his back benchers might at least have been tempted to curtail some of the dafter party ideas)



petejh

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#914 Re: 2019 December General Election
January 16, 2020, 03:13:23 pm
Thanks Offwidth, that will make a useful resource for those searching to be told what they should think, when they log in to UKGBB's 'general election 2024' thread.


There are another 20+ with majorities where tactical voting could have helped, with some big tory scalps, and leaving Boris with a thin majority (where his back benchers might at least have been tempted to curtail some of the dafter party ideas)

Perhaps take solace that, in an infinite multiverse with infinite different paths branching into infinite different outcomes for every moment, somewhere out there in one of those universes Corbyn is PM..

Oldmanmatt

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#915 Re: 2019 December General Election
January 16, 2020, 04:03:52 pm
Thanks Offwidth, that will make a useful resource for those searching to be told what they should think, when they log in to UKGBB's 'general election 2024' thread.


There are another 20+ with majorities where tactical voting could have helped, with some big tory scalps, and leaving Boris with a thin majority (where his back benchers might at least have been tempted to curtail some of the dafter party ideas)

Perhaps take solace that, in an infinite multiverse with infinite different paths branching into infinite different outcomes for every moment, somewhere out there in one of those universes Corbyn is PM..
But only one.

The majority of people, both amongst progressives and those on the right of the political spectrum, decided the risk if a Con gov under Bojo, was better than the risks of a Corbyn lead government.
I really donít think a rerun of the election tomorrow, would produce a significantly different result.

Labour needs to get itís act together and accept that this is  not a population eager to embrace socialism.


tomtom

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#916 Re: 2019 December General Election
January 16, 2020, 04:39:33 pm
Socialism under Jeremy Corbyn OMM...

I think many people would be fine with many socialist policies - if it looked like the person to implement them was credible.

Oldmanmatt

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#917 Re: 2019 December General Election
January 16, 2020, 04:47:26 pm
Socialism under Jeremy Corbyn OMM...

I think many people would be fine with many socialist policies - if it looked like the person to implement them was credible.

Aye.

Mine was more of a flippant statement than a considered analysis, of course.
But the current leadership election appears to indicate a lack of self awareness and inability to learn, on the part of Labour.

Socialism? Or socially responsible? I seem to recall the former is rather extreme and oppressive of the individual. Where it has been fully implemented in the past, it has crumbled under the almost universal discontent of the populations subjected to it.

Regardless, such policies beed to be drip fed into the consciousness of a population. 

Will Hunt

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#918 Re: 2019 December General Election
January 16, 2020, 05:05:04 pm
I've always struggled with the term "socialism" because I have no idea what it means. I suspect it's a term that will be fought over bitterly by people who are variously more or less left wing.

"No, my politics is socialism! You're a communist/neoliberal/blue Labour/red Tory/waving the red flag to defeat the red flag etc etc etc".

tomtom

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#919 Re: 2019 December General Election
January 16, 2020, 05:30:21 pm
Indeed - itís often taken as a pejorative term in the US.

Will Hunt

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#920 Re: 2019 December General Election
January 16, 2020, 08:43:53 pm
I wouldn't underestimate how toxic it is to some people here. Particularly those who lived through the cold war observing Stalinism unfold in the East. It seems ridiculous, but I once mentioned the Labour party in front of my grandmother (a quiet, very kind, small-c-and-large-C-conservative woman) and she actually gasped and whispered in horror "the socialists". Funny and sad at the same time.

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#921 Re: 2019 December General Election
January 16, 2020, 09:06:29 pm
Red peril!

tomtom

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#922 Re: 2019 December General Election
January 16, 2020, 09:07:32 pm
Red peril!

Reds under the bed Tim! Watch out Will - they'll come and get you in the night...

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#923 Re: 2019 December General Election
January 17, 2020, 12:33:02 am
Thanks Offwidth, that will make a useful resource for those searching to be told what they should think, when they log in to UKGBB's 'general election 2024' thread. Perhaps take solace that, in an infinite multiverse with infinite different paths branching into infinite different outcomes for every moment, somewhere out there in one of those universes Corbyn is PM..

We will wait and see in the next few years how Boris goes, as I will use it as a marker if things go very badly. I wanted it on the record that progressives in these marginals who should have realised how real and present the danger was from Boris and his government were the main voters who let us down badly.... far more guilty than northern workers (whom so many progressives blamed), who were rather abandoned by their so called natural party. The votes numbers show the result would have been very close if extensive tactical voting had happened. The majority of voters were progressive by several percent but their vote was split in a way that benefitted Boris (except for Scotland).

The serious risks of Corbyn being PM after this election were always a complete myth. His hands would have been tied by his own MPs even in the incredibly unlikely event he made it with a majority. In a minority, any deal would have most likely have seen the end of him. Well educated progressives who saw the Crobyn risk as being worse than Boris risk were the stupid ones in this election and not many pundits are looking at the data and saying that.

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#924 Re: 2019 December General Election
January 17, 2020, 08:47:05 am
I wouldn't underestimate how toxic it is to some people here. Particularly those who lived through the cold war observing Stalinism unfold in the East. It seems ridiculous, but I once mentioned the Labour party in front of my grandmother (a quiet, very kind, small-c-and-large-C-conservative woman) and she actually gasped and whispered in horror "the socialists". Funny and sad at the same time.

I find this really interesting, as its definitely a reasonably widely held view among that generation. The thing is, aren't we indulging it with a silly amount of respect by even talking about it? Its a clearly ridiculous point of view to hold (not having a go at your grandparents as mine would be very similar!). On a par with saying 'Johnson is a Nazi' etc etc.


 

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