[mrjonathanr]

It is a fact, that if Labour really had wanted to deal with this, they could have done. The example of kicking Mandleson straight out for saying he'd vote LD, but procrastinating endlessly about alleged anti-Semitism, the lack of transparency in their processes, the endless 'slip ups' or 'mistakes' of which a few would have been, but it has to be said that after a point you have to wonder.

Exactly. Huge numbers of cases drift through unresolved months after beginning, yet Campbell was turfed out in a few hours on a Sunday afternoon.

Amazing what can be done when you want to.

[Somebody's Fool]

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2005/feb/11/advertising.politics

Evidence of the Labour leadership being anti-Semitic.

Although I don’t remember the Chief Rabbi piping up at the time.

[cowboyhat]

Check out the guardian headline story right now. For historical purposes, this is it:

BBC admits 'mistake' in editing out laughter at Johnson in TV debate

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/nov/25/bbc-admits-mistake-in-editing-out-laughter-at-johnson-in-tv-debate?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Playing devils advocate here I sympathise with this; having had to cut several conference speeches/manifesto launches/tv debates down to three or four mins for a bulletin thats going out almost as said speech ends I can see how this would happen. We have however usually opted to leave in that sort of flavour because they not only present the truth but simply make the VT more interesting.

Certainly the idea that a nefarious agenda is behind it is nonsense. There will be a programme editor stressing about an over long live; you have to cut 30 seconds out two mins before the VT is due to air etc.

Whats interesting is their big apology, and that it was for a LTN bully the following day. I expect that is just someone being lazy and recutting something already on the server. I reckon the beeb come in for greater scrutiny than others over this sort of craft based infringement.

[cowboyhat]

Also, apologies for not back reading the entire thread but;

Anyone else still and always living in a very safe seat?

I always have. And, its Labour. Admittedly I'm no judith chalmers but since my first in '97 I have always lived in a safe Labour seat.

Which tends to take the wind out of my enthusiasm for the whole endeavour. I will vote yes to any electoral reform.



Heard Alistair Campbell saying he will campaign for LD.

[cowboyhat]

Can we can it with the BBC bashing? As other have noted both Labour and Conservative supporters think it’s biased in the other direction which suggests relative impartiality.

I totally agree. It's also fundamentally highly unlikely to have any grain of truth. News is repeated, re edited and re reported any numbers to times a day. Stuff like this is always just going to be someone in an editing room trying to do their job and making a minor slip up. If anyone really thinks there is a vast corporate conspiracy, which strongarms every editing meeting in the BBC in London, Salford and across their global news network, they might want to consider how that might be accomplished, how all those staff are indoctrinated, and then how likely that is really.

oh shit sorry Toby, maybe I should reread back after all to at least avoid being boring.

[teestub]

You do speak from a position of authority on the news editing issues so it’s great to hear your POV.

[Offwidth]

How confident are you in telling the Chief Rabbi whether his anxieties are acceptable Offwidth? Are you sure you’ve called that right?High-handedness in knowing better is the key characteristic of the attitudes expressed by Chris Williamson, Corbyn and the broader leadership.

Church leaders should call out all racism and he should have at least criticised the tories as well.


I don’t disagree with the seriousness of the problem in the Tory Party, but the Chief Rabbi represents the Jewish community and Welby is expressing his agreement- all perfectly correct.

I'm very confident. He said "When 12 December arrives, I ask every person to vote with their conscience. Be in no doubt, the very soul of our nation is at stake." This is well beyond acceptable to me and dangerously biased, as such arguments apply to both main parties. I believe nearly every Labour MP is not antisemitic and most seem to have tried to pressure their leader to improve processes.

I'm a critic of the Labour party on the subject and, as Matt says, I expect better from them than I expect from the tories. However in many ways what he said was worse than don't vote Labour (which is rhetorical dishonesty in itself, when he says he is not telling people how to vote... as a religious leader, saying such things, of course he is), and given the efforts of most of the PLP to get Corbyn to improve his and the party response, is beyond destructively blunt for them (especially long standing MP campaigners against antisemitism who publicly criticised Corbyn and the party). Other Jewish groups gave exceptions of exemplary MPs, in their views on the election, whilst expressing dismay at the party response, process and Corbyn's leadership.

On the subject of comparing racism, my prime line is any is too much and both main parties (structures, leaders and processes) should be castigated, even though the tories are far worse. However the MPs and party members who consistently fight racism and speak out publicly against party failures should be spared any criticism.

Welby backing the story, and not being more nuanced, is also very unfortunate in my view.

[Offwidth]

Deepsoup on t'other channel linked a moderate Jewish blogger who feels even more strongly on the subject.than I do.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/writingfromtheedge/2019/11/as-a-british-jew-im-not-fearful-of-a-corbyn-government-but-im-horrified-at-how-antisemitism-is-being-used-against-him/

[andy popp]

Anyone else still and always living in a very safe seat?

I always have. And, its Labour. Admittedly I'm no judith chalmers but since my first in '97 I have always lived in a safe Labour seat.

Which tends to take the wind out of my enthusiasm for the whole endeavour. I will vote yes to any electoral reform.

Yes, extremely safe, increasingly so over recent elections, and also Labour. Or I would do if I'd got round to registering. I feel guilty for not voting, and I typically vote Labour, but it really will make zero difference in this instance. I also dislike the specific MP for a variety of reasons (e.g. he voted against marriage equality, amongst other decisions I find hard to accept).

[tommytwotone]

Also, apologies for not back reading the entire thread but;

Anyone else still and always living in a very safe seat?

I'm in Batley and Spen - so Jo Cox's seat. Should be a solid Labour hold for Tracy Brabin (nearly 10k majority with c.30k over the Tories' c.20k in second place), but given the conversations you overhear in the supermarket / pub / on the school run I wouldn't hold my breath.

I have a horrible feeling this is exactly one of the places that will end up subject so an unpleasant [cliche klaxon] political earthquake in December.

[Somebody's Fool]

You do speak from a position of authority on the news editing issues so it’s great to hear your POV.

#pestonspoodle

Seriously though, it is good to hear from someone on the front line.

Just to play Devil’s advocate again, and genuinely interested to hear your thoughts on it, would the 2016 footage from the cenotaph have been close enough at hand to just slip in by accident?

My contact on the inside reckons it would have come from archive and it would have needed a deliberate diversion to go and get it. Although she works on Countryfile, not news, so could be talking rubbish.

[andy popp]

I'm in Batley and Spen - so Jo Cox's seat. Should be a solid Labour hold for Tracy Brabin (nearly 10k majority with c.30k over the Tories' c.20k in second place), but given the conversations you overhear in the supermarket / pub / on the school run I wouldn't hold my breath.

I'm Halton - Derek Twigg; 26,000 majority in 2017, up from 20,000 in 2015 and 15K in 2010.

[TobyD]

Can we can it with the BBC bashing? As other have noted both Labour and Conservative supporters think it’s biased in the other direction which suggests relative impartiality.

I totally agree. It's also fundamentally highly unlikely to have any grain of truth. News is repeated, re edited and re reported any numbers to times a day. Stuff like this is always just going to be someone in an editing room trying to do their job and making a minor slip up. If anyone really thinks there is a vast corporate conspiracy, which strongarms every editing meeting in the BBC in London, Salford and across their global news network, they might want to consider how that might be accomplished, how all those staff are indoctrinated, and then how likely that is really.

oh shit sorry Toby, maybe I should reread back after all to at least avoid being boring.

No worries! Its good to have that confirmed by someone who does it for a job.

Also  living in a very safe Labour seat. I feel  somewhat disenfranchised as I'll definitely vote either liberal democrat, or green. 

[petejh]

Just to play Devil’s advocate again, and genuinely interested to hear your thoughts on it, would the 2016 footage from the cenotaph have been close enough at hand to just slip in by accident?

My contact on the inside reckons it would have come from archive and it would have needed a deliberate diversion to go and get it. Although she works on Countryfile, not news, so could be talking rubbish.

I'm of the very strong opinion that anyone of any political persuasion who attempts political point-scoring from the act of wreath laying on remembrance day is an obnoxious cunt. Strikes me as something Alistair Campbell would have considered fair game at his 'peak' and perhaps Cummings now.
Even if the beeb did intentionally show the 2016 cenotaph footage - my own hunch based on no evidence is they did - why is showing BJ placing a wreath upside down a political issue for some people? To try to show him up by looking stupid and disrespectful? (Does well at that by himself). For one day of smugness and a soon to be forgotten headline?
I honestly couldn't give a shit if the beeb intentionally chose not to show him laying the wreath upside down, if it was (as I suspect) out of a desire to respect the dignity of remembrance day and of not wanting to turn the act of remembering mindless slaughter of millions of young people into yet another excuse for an unseemly flame war between, for lack of a better description, a gaggle of opinionated talking-head cunts.

[Somebody's Fool]

I don't think the issue is whether people might have criticised Boris for laying his wreath wrong. I think the more important point here is whether or not the BBC have got into the habit of editing footage to paint Boris in a more favourable light.

[mrjonathanr]

I'm very confident. He said "When 12 December arrives, I ask every person to vote with their conscience. Be in no doubt, the very soul of our nation is at stake." This is well beyond acceptable to me and dangerously biased,

Come again?? What is the alternative- voting against our consciences?

When I posted I had not seen the full original text- it's behind a paywall at the Times- but seems mostly reprinted in the times of Israel so I'll link here.

I understand your point - the juxtaposition of criticising Corbyn and exhorting voters to consult their consciences clearly means 'reflect on whether a vote for Labour is right in your mind'.  He is entitled to argue for the interests of the religious community he leads- and unfortunately this is what he thinks.

Instead of asking whether he has gone too far for your taste, might it be better to ask what on earth Corbyn's leadership has done to the Labour Party?  How has the biggest force against racism in this country has been reduced to this?

Should Mirvis or Corbyn be in the frame here?

[TobyD]

... and, unbelievably,  Corbyn still seems very reluctant to see that there is a problem.  See the widely reported interview with Andrew Neil. I don't think that him becoming leader was the cause, likely more the massive influx of new members and rather hastily chosen and poorly vetted candidates in the 2017 election.  But Corbyn should have shown an ounce of contrition,  the interview was excruciating.  I sort of wish he'd stop being so useless and concentrate on laying down the very real concerns that every voter should have about  Johnson's personal integrity, horrendous treatment of women,  history of lying and adultery... it shouldn't be that hard really. 

[mrjonathanr]

I’m not anti Labour btw - far, far from it. Pretty dismayed at its current decline however.

I don’t want to spam the forum on a single issue but this article on today’s events and the Jewish community’s perceptions is broad, and balanced, and so worth linking to I think.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/26/british-jews-corbyn-emigrate

Digested version: Over-anxious? Maybe. Valid? Certainly.

[Stu Littlefair]

Jonathan - could you say what makes it valid, given that it’s probably over anxious?

The articles from the Jewish community always focus on the perceptions of the Jewish community, but what if those perceptions are unfair?

The article offwidth linked to reflects my own feelings on this issue, but I feel very uncomfortable (as a non-Jew) making these points.

Am I being unfair? Is it enough that feeling amongst British Jews is so high that they have described a Labour government as an “existential threat”? Should that make me take my vote elsewhere, or do I use my own judgment that such an assessment is wildly overblown?

This is genuine internal debate BTW - not rhetoric.

[mrjonathanr]

Busy day - I will try to answer when I have time. It’s just my opinion though, I can’t speak for anyone else.

[Stu Littlefair]

Cheers. No rush - genuinely interested to hear your thoughts.

[Fiend]

JR - while you're writing on the subject, whenever it happens - could you give a few examples of actual effective anti-semitism from Corbyn / Labour?? I did google for it a while ago and didn't get much (as a devout agnostic and previously apolitical person) that I fully understood. Given it, along with Corbyn's general "lack of impressiveness" , seems to be the big issue for Labour (compared to the Conservatives where it would seem to be quicker to list the current leadership's very few redeeming qualities), I'd like to be able to put it into context.

I'm thinking stuff like:

Internal policy that would have a detrimental effect on Jews?
Foreign policy that would have an effect on Jews?
Encouragement or incitement of hostility or discrimination towards the Jewish community?
Stances or behaviour that are deliberately offensive towards Jews (this is one I am vaguely aware of when JC was expressing support of a wall mural that was considered anti-Jewish)?

(Yes I am pretty ignorant about this, I'd only really come across the concept of anti-semitism in the context of Israel-Palestine conflict which seems very far away, and with marginal and dismissable imbeciles like holocaust-deniers)

[rich d]

Anyone else still and always living in a very safe seat?

Yep Rushcliffe in Nottinghamshire has pretty much always been conservative with labour in second and not much of a lib dem showing at the general elections. But that may be because it's had Ken Clarke there. So now no Ken, and Rushcliffe voted fairly heavily to remain.  The new conservative candidate is backing get Brexit done.  There's no green standing here as part of the remain pact, and the lib dem presence has been very visible. High street of west Bridgford every weekend, leaflets and letters addressed to house holders, nothing from the conservatives and only a leaflet from labour. So what was a very safe seat in leafy, affluent subburbs could be interesting.

[TobyD]

From an interesting Guardian article by Raphael Behr today

Johnson’s appeal is weaker with women, and falls away among younger voters. If the latter account for the late surges that have been reported in electoral registration, the demographics of the race could be markedly altered in Labour’s favour. All sides are expecting the race to tighten. Smaller parties are being squeezed. Tory candidates are braced for a shock, straining to hear the echoes of 2017 so as not to be surprised if it happens again.

At some level they seem to know that they are pushing their luck, asking for yet another term of unloved Tory rule, under a famously fallible prime minister. They know that the window of opportunity is small and closing – that Brexit fatigue and dread of Corbyn are carrying them towards the finish line, while an election on other issues against almost any other Labour leader is one they might already have lost.

You see it written on Johnson’s face too, at unguarded moments: the flicker of a guilty smile, the glint of disbelief around the eyes that, yes, he really is getting away with this; the furtive shuffle, like a schoolboy shoplifter, with unearned electoral advantage stuffed down his trousers, sidling past the checkout hoping not to trigger any alarms before polling day.

It is, in a slightly macabre way, going to be quite interesting on December 13th. I'm finding it difficult to retain much hope that it'll be anything but Johnson by default as too many people will feel hes the least worst option.  The only saving grace is conceivably that he'll lose his own seat at the same time,  although there is apparently precedence for someone being PM without having a seat in the commons (bbc)

[Offwidth]

Anyone else still and always living in a very safe seat?

Yep Rushcliffe in Nottinghamshire has pretty much always been conservative with labour in second and not much of a lib dem showing at the general elections. But that may be because it's had Ken Clarke there. So now no Ken, and Rushcliffe voted fairly heavily to remain.  The new conservative candidate is backing get Brexit done.  There's no green standing here as part of the remain pact, and the lib dem presence has been very visible. High street of west Bridgford every weekend, leaflets and letters addressed to house holders, nothing from the conservatives and only a leaflet from labour. So what was a very safe seat in leafy, affluent subburbs could be interesting.

My impression was the new Rushcliffe tory candidate was an IT consultant with party loyalty and the more 'getting brexit done' candidate was rejected. I'd be interested to hear what the election fliers say as too much aggresion on brexit might be a problem for them (the local conservative party are dominated by the usual clowns stuck in the deep past). Ken was well liked by his constituents (despite his big faults ... like sitting on a tobacco company board). Without Ken, Oliver and Dominic we would probably already have been fucked by the Boris deal.