[Somebody's Fool]

I suppose if you've never read anything pro-Corbynism, it might come as a bit of a shock.

[Will Hunt]

I suppose if you've never read anything pro-Corbynism, it might come as a bit of a shock.

Hmmm. I do have time for some of Corbyn's policies and qualities. That wasn't really a pro-Corbyn article though. It wasn't selling the benefits of a Corbyn-led party. It was an anti-everything-else article. You say Labour Right, I say centrist, potato, potAto - whatever you want to call it, it was anti-that.

[TobyD]

I thought this was a good article explaining why the differing factions of the Labour right, combined with a sympathetic media have seized upon the antisemitism claims and run with it for so long.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/antisemitism-cosmopolitanism-and-politics-of-labour-s-old-and-new-right-wings/

That's not to deny there might be some elements of it with party members.

No shit. It really worries me if anyone reads stuff like this and then writes the BBC off as biased. If the Labour left doesn't have a serious issue with antisemitism,  why are they so coy about doing anything about it, why didn't they kick out Chris Williamson straight away,  and why are they being investigated?

Anyway,  this is an election thread not a labour party thread. In better news, hopefully a few less people in South Yorkshire will vote for Johnson now, since hes made a balls up of responding to the floods. Anyone with any interest in political transparency cannot be considering voting Conservative,  in my view,  the government seems adamant that it'll refuse to publish anything which could be embarrassing; seems similar to their tactics of just pulling out of votes in the commons that they thought that they'd lose.

[Fultonius]

I thought this was a good article explaining why the differing factions of the Labour right, combined with a sympathetic media have seized upon the antisemitism claims and run with it for so long.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/antisemitism-cosmopolitanism-and-politics-of-labour-s-old-and-new-right-wings/

I honestly don't even know where to begin with that. Was it written in Jezza's own bunker? It obsesses over smearing anybody who might not agree with Corbyn and talks very little about antisemitism - only coming to it in the most roundabout fashion. I'm surprised to see such an article linked on the same page that people are complaining about media bias.

I'm also surprised that more fuss hasn't been made over Fultonius' post. It starts off being completely outraged by claims of Corbyn being antisemitic and then launches headlong into a post which argues that the Jewish population is not capable of identifying antisemitic behaviour, uses careless wording that alludes to the antisemitic idea that the press is controlled by Jewish interests ("Could they be in any way swayed by an Anti-Corbyn Jewish Press?"), and then caps it all by describing the aims of the state of Israel as "apartheid".

You couldn't make it up.

Thanks for the massive misrepresentation there Will, Bravo!

1. Of course the Jewish population can identify cases of antisemitism. In fact, I'd argue they are best placed to. Hope that's clear.

2. Apologies for poor wording. I was NOT trying to imply the media is "Jewish run", but "The Jewish Chronicle" certainly is. I have absolutely no allusions to the mainstream press being "Jewish Controlled" Hope that is also clear. Tell me, is the Jewish press pro-Corbyn?

3. What else can you call the forced occupation of the West Bank? Peaceful harmony? What do British Jews think of what's going on out there? Good times and parties?

Now, on to the meat of what I am alluding to. Let me try to state this is no uncertain terms.

Antisemitism still occurs in the UK. It shouldn't. I don't have the links to hand, but I distinctly remember some analysis of "antisemitic attitudes in the Labour party" showing that by and large Labour members displayed less antisemitic attitudes than either the conservatives or the UK as a whole. Prove that wrong if you can.

Let's put this another way, a good proportion of leave voters in Brexit did so swayed by the media, not based on fact or good reasoning. This stuff happens. 
Labour and Corbyn cleary have some issues with stamping out antisemitism (even if it already lower than the uk average), but is it a wild assertion to think that this would become politically weaponised? That it would be used, relentlessly, by a media (not controlled by Jews may I add), that are hell bent on keeping him out?

Jews may get more than their fair share of abuse (fair share being none, clearly), but as a whole, in the UK, they earn significantly more, live longer, are better represented in politics (around 8 times higher than their percentage of population would predict), so you could hardly call the Jewish community "oppressed".

Back to point 1. What I really meant was you cannot, without solid verifiable evidence, state "I am X, and because I am X, and I feel that Y is anti-X, it so follows that Y is anti X.

[Boogster]

On Corbyn and anti-Semitism: I don't think he's a raging racist, but I find this  pretty hard to account for. Frankly I suspect he falls into the just-a-bit-dim camp.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/28/antisemitism-open-your-eyes-jeremy-corbyn-labour

[Fultonius]

I'm just going to put this out there for consideration : https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/11/putting-fear-of-corbyns-labour-in-perspective

[tomtom]

Some strong views here but maybe we could agree that the LP has not really handled recent antisemitism issues as well as it could have and that the right wing press have exploited this issue. Certainly more than the reporting on the torys islamaphobia issues

[Mike Highbury]

I'm just going to put this out there for consideration : https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/11/putting-fear-of-corbyns-labour-in-perspective

This is becoming an argument more typical of Another Place, 'I don't care what you say because here's some Jews that agree with me so I must be right'.

And, not saying that it happened in this instance but you do know that The Guardian solicits letters to provide balance and so as to not frighten its horses away?

[TobyD]

However precisely anyone tries to define the exact amount of antisemitism within the labour party in relation to a national average of antisemitism,  or how it's not as bad as Islamophobia within the  conservative party, it seems like a pretty feeble argument to get anyone to vote for them.

Frankly I'd really rather it be taken as a given that politicians didn't tolerate racial hatred,  and hear someone present a decent policy on reforming health and social care or transport.
That might be possible if the country hadn't politically wasted the last three years pissing about arguing about how to divorce ourselves from the only thing that's propping up the UK's international influence. 

[duncan]

Call yourself an impartial journalist?  Jonathan Coffey, a BBC journalist, asks what impartiality now means for broadcasters in a polarised society (NB contains some Rod Little).

[BrutusTheBear]

  not sure I wanna get involved in this.  A couple of questions though, if the prevalence of antisemitism is lower in the LP than in the general public as a whole, as well as being lower than in other political parties why the great big hoo ha surrounding the LP alone and why not the same level of scrutiny/vilification for other the other parties (who seem to be doing nothing about the anti-Semitic crisis that must exist and is clearly more of a crisis for them given the higher level of prevalence?

Also take issue with the idea that it is only the right wing media that are attacking the LP in this area....   Unless we are accepting the fact the majority of mainstream media is right wing (which I would quite happily set out the argument for had Chomsky not already done so convincingly in The Manufacture of Consent).

[mrjonathanr]

3. What else can you call the forced occupation of the West Bank? Peaceful harmony? What do British Jews think of what's going on out there? Good times and parties?

You are coming out with some rather unsavoury posts Fultonius.

Not only are you insulting me with this comment (if you want to know what I think of events in the West Bank, search for my arguments on here with Sloper) - but much more importantly- using the racist's the age-old trick of trying to make an ethnic group somehow complicit in the actions of a foreign state.


You reminded me of Derek Hatton's  2012 tweet:
“Jewish people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Israel!”


The journalist Hannah Parkinson puts it well:
The intellectual vacuity of antisemites, unable to distinguish between Netanyahu’s government and past Israeli administrations and an entire group of historically oppressed people, or their right to a homeland, continues to take the breath away.

Jews may get more than their fair share of abuse (fair share being none, clearly), but as a whole, in the UK, they earn significantly more, live longer, are better represented in politics (around 8 times higher than their percentage of population would predict), so you could hardly call the Jewish community "oppressed".

How on earth do you know the personal circumstances of every Jew in this country? You don't. Do you know the lived experience of every Jew - or even the majority of Jews- in this country? No, obviously not. Cluelessness upon cluelessness.

Nor, it seems, do you have the tiniest grasp of history.

Here's an example of something very concerning to many:



Can you see the problem? Or do these attitudes all seem quite normal and healthy to you?



edit: comment made less personal.

[Oldmanmatt]

Of course “the media” are “right wing”, if you’re a committed socialist.
 All media, unless party sponsored, is a capitalist enterprise, ergo, “right wing”.

Part of the current issue is this arbitrary line, in the political sand, between Left and right. One of the biggest problems is the divide in the progressive and liberal side of the debate.

 Right wing philosophy is essentially one of individual responsibility, at it’s most moderate, through to utter selfishness at it’s extreme. Oddly, this doesn’t seem to produce as much of the “herding cats” syndrome as we might think, it seems to allow better cooperation than the “you’re not red enough for my gang” crap that plagues the Left.
Essentially, I’m saying that the ridiculous number of Labour sponsored ads and leaflets appearing in my feeds and on my doormat, attacking the LD (Swinson in particular) because they sometimes supported Tory posed legislation; whilst giving absolutely no clue to Labour’s policies or even trying to attack the Tories, seems pretty pointless.

[spidermonkey09]

Some strong views here but maybe we could agree that the LP has not really handled recent antisemitism issues as well as it could have and that the right wing press have exploited this issue. Certainly more than the reporting on the torys islamaphobia issues

I don't see any reason why this shouldn't be the standard view. It's possible to think both these things at the same time and probably comes closest to my views on it.

[Fultonius]

3. What else can you call the forced occupation of the West Bank? Peaceful harmony? What do British Jews think of what's going on out there? Good times and parties?

You are coming out with some rather unsavoury posts Fultonius.

Not only are you insulting me with this comment (if you want to know what I think of events in the West Bank, search for my arguments on here with Sloper) - but much more importantly- using the racist's the age-old trick of trying to make an ethnic group somehow complicit in the actions of a foreign state.


You reminded me of Derek Hatton's  2012 tweet:
“Jewish people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Israel!”


The journalist Hannah Parkinson puts it well:
The intellectual vacuity of antisemites, unable to distinguish between Netanyahu’s government and past Israeli administrations and an entire group of historically oppressed people, or their right to a homeland, continues to take the breath away.

Jews may get more than their fair share of abuse (fair share being none, clearly), but as a whole, in the UK, they earn significantly more, live longer, are better represented in politics (around 8 times higher than their percentage of population would predict), so you could hardly call the Jewish community "oppressed".

How on earth do you know the personal circumstances of every Jew in this country? You don't. Do you know the lived experience of every Jew - or even the majority of Jews- in this country? No, obviously not. Cluelessness upon cluelessness.

Nor, it seems, do you have the tiniest grasp of history.

Here's an example of something very concerning to many:



Can you see the problem? Or do these attitudes all seem quite normal and healthy to you?



edit: comment made less personal.

I'm going to bow out of this for a while, do some more reading, consider it all. Apologies for any offence. I got pretty angry at Will misrepresenting what I said, and battered out a poorly thought through response.

I'm clearly in over my head. I'm just so angry that a government who are clearly and demonstrably killing it's own people https://www.gov.uk/government/news/public-health-england-publishes-air-pollution-evidence-review, and selling arms to other countries who kill vast amounts of other people, gets propped up by a willing press.


Before crawling away, I do want to explain a few of my comments. I wasn't intending to belittle anyone's fears, or denigrate their individual circumstances. I was merely pointing out that, on a number of useful metrics, health, wealth, opportunity, etc. Jewish people (on average, in studies etc.) do pretty well in the UK, and a lot better than the average. These are just facts. I do not believe, or infer, any ulterior motive in this, such as "Jewish Overloards" or any such nonsense. Of course, oppression comes in many forms, and I'm willing to admit that in focusing on these, I have perhaps missed other types. I'm now going to do what I can to read as many sources as I can on this.

As I said before, I have no direct contact with Jewish people, there aren't many in Scotland and I'm non-religious, so I just don't meet many (for all I know, perhaps I do and don't know it?). Either way, my knowledge and understanding of what living life in the UK as a Jew are next to non-existent. I realise now that I probably should have stayed well clear of this topic. But I am interested to learn and understand, I'm not entrenched, not unwilling to back down and realise my error in judgement.

With regards to the West bank thing, I was not trying to infer complicity. I was genuinely interested. I've re-read some old stuff and saw your posts now. I place no blame on anyone not able to vote him out.  As a point of note, I feel somewhat complicit in the murder of Yemen civilians by extension of the fact I'm not doing enough to stop it, but I do try to call out the UK's involvement whenever I can, and don't vote for anyone who supports this.

I just finished this, which has helped a bit I think:  https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/05/no-direction-home-tragedy-jewish-left

[mrjonathanr]

Good post Fultonius.

[TobyD]

Of course “the media” are “right wing”, if you’re a committed socialist.
 All media, unless party sponsored, is a capitalist enterprise, ergo, “right wing”.

Part of the current issue is this arbitrary line, in the political sand, between Left and right. One of the biggest problems is the divide in the progressive and liberal side of the debate.

 Right wing philosophy is essentially one of individual responsibility, at it’s most moderate, through to utter selfishness at it’s extreme. Oddly, this doesn’t seem to produce as much of the “herding cats” syndrome as we might think, it seems to allow better cooperation than the “you’re not red enough for my gang” crap that plagues the Left.
Essentially, I’m saying that the ridiculous number of Labour sponsored ads and leaflets appearing in my feeds and on my doormat, attacking the LD (Swinson in particular) because they sometimes supported Tory posed legislation; whilst giving absolutely no clue to Labour’s policies or even trying to attack the Tories, seems pretty pointless.

I think I agree Matt, in that one of the most depressing things about this election campaign is that there are very few positive voices with realistic clear policy proposals. It all seems to be bickering, and taunts of Tories/austerity or Labour/ Marxist spendthrifts or Lib Dems/ tuition fees. The only party I think I've actually heard present a positive vision without this is the Greens, but I'm rather uncertain, to put it mildly, that their policies are all realistic.

Just for the avoidance of doubt, I don't think that Johnson endlessly babbling infantile platitudes about his oven-ready microwave-boil-in-the-bag brexit represents a positive vision. Currently, Labour seems to have substituted having a manifesto for a huge sack of bribes. The Lib Dems on the other hand have bought some boxing gloves for Jo Swinson as it worked well for Farage didn't it. Boxing is clearly in fashion for parties doomed to obscurity.

[tomtom]

What do you want though Toby?

Labour have come out with many plans - Latest free fibre to the door for everyone (which actually could be a big future thing - really it’s an infrastructure project for all). NHS spending, torys are also planning to increase spending on NHS, Police, immigration etc... 



But you say these are bribes.. that’s an issue of view or perception. So does that mean the electorate are equally (partially) to blame for the political malevolence as the politicians? Or something else that has poisoned things (more)?

[Will Hunt]

In response to Brutus:
Why not so much criticism of the Conservatives? There's no doubt in my mind that the Conservative party is institutionally islamophobic and probably has broader issues with racism. They elected a leader who is given to using inflammatory and horribly insensitive language to describe people who are different to him. He's a cunt at the top of a towering heap of cunts. A heap of cunts who, in the past three years, have consistently put their own party before the national interest. There aren't many derogatives that don't apply to Johnson, and he's about to stack his benches with even more loons who will gladly follow him over whatever cliff he leads them to.

However, I have never voted Conservative and would certainly not vote for them at this election.


I would categorise my political views as centre-left (hint: you don't get to call anybody who isn't as far left as you a right-winger. That would make Corbyn a right-winger in the eyes of a communist - is that true? No.) In the face of such an extreme Conservative government who are trying to enact Brexit, which I think will be incredibly destructive, it should be the easiest thing in the world for me to vote for an opposition party, but Labour make it really hard.

On the issue of antisemitism. Taking the absolute numbers of antisemites in the party and presenting them as a portion of a much bigger membership is to belie their impact. It doesn't take a large number of people to affect change if they are persistent and vocal about it. It's only taken that small number of people to group together and attend all the meetings and vocally hound people out of their seats with hate speech. Even people as close to JC as John McDonnell admit that there is a problem in the party. We have to expect this - if the party is reflective of society then there will be bad apples, but if you watch the Panorama documentary you will see that the party under Corbyn's leadership failed to do anything about it (just as the Conservatives fail to deal with Islamophobia - as pointed out on the BBC by Baroness Warsi) - this is the bit I have a problem with.

It is an unfortunate truth that most of England is centre-right or further-right-than-that. Corbyn is toxic to these people - even if not for his policies then for his appearance or lack of charisma (notice how those crowds of enthusiastic students that we saw in 2015 have fallen away? Corbyn has lost his campaigning vim). While the SNP hold sway in Scotland, he can't win by taking the party to the left. Given how much I'd like to get the Conservatives out, it pains me that his continued leadership is probably going to give us a Conservative majority and a horrible Brexit which I'd hoped we might somehow avoid. Were the party in the hands of Owen Smith or similar, who knows where we'd be now? The best we can hope for is a minority labour government propped up by the lib dems, but the odds are stacked against it.

The article that somebody's fool linked to seemed to proclaim 2017 as a great Labour victory. It was not. It was a smaller defeat than their last defeat, but it was a defeat nevertheless.

On Corbyn's policies. I very much like the idea of increased public spending and trying to repair the rot that has set in over the last decade of Tory rule. Some of his policies are unaffordable and, when it comes to nationalisation, we need to see a clear case as to how the public will benefit and set this against the enormous amounts of compensation that will need to be paid out. However, a GE manifesto doesn't necessarily have to be a list of things that you definitely can deliver (if it were it would be to give a hostage to fortune), so I can look past that. My main concern is that a Corbyn-led government will be woefully inadequate at dealing with whatever challenges lie ahead. They can barely cope with being in opposition.

[TobyD]

What do you want though Toby?
Labour have come out with many plans ...So does that mean the electorate are equally (partially) to blame for the political malevolence as the politicians? Or something else that has poisoned things (more)?

I wasn't saying that labour were any worse than anyone else in this regard, I think all parties are guilty at election time of promising the moon on a stick and being very coy about how moons on sticks are going to be funded. I think this isn't just their fault, the British people are notorious for saying in polls that they'd pay more for the health services, infrastructure etc but then getting really stroppy about it when taxes go up.
Free fibre broadband and nationalisation is certainly an interesting idea, though there seems to be some debate that they may have radically underestimated the cost of this.
I heard some of Johnson's Q&A earlier on the radio. I used to find him at least a bit funny, but he was utterly unbearable, all 'i love fish and chips',  'get brexit done', and spouting the usual either poorly informed or blatantly lying rubbish about how leaving will be all sweetness light and riches for everyone.

I'd like somebody to be standing up and saying what sort of country they want the UK to be, how they'll achieve it, and in what ways they want to try to achieve it. Rather than saying they'll shake the magic money tree til it dies.

[Oldmanmatt]

So, just a quick dodge back to the BBC thing...

They referred  to the universal broadband thing as “Communism”, or at least, pointedly asked if was.

To me, that’s equivalent to asking a Tory, during an interview, if certain policies on (say) immigration, or more to the point Patel’s proposal to essentially end the Roma way of life, amounted to Fascism.
Yet, they haven’t even really mentioned any of those things.
The Roma issue revolves around the proposal to make Trespass a criminal offence (rather than civil, as it is now) and to allow seizure of goods and equipment used in unlawful residence. Or, to put it another way, take their caravans and render them homeless.

You might not like Gypsies much, they get a bad rap and many are pretty bloody awful, but I’d argue it’s a bit of a two way “they hate us and don’t respect us, so fuck’em” thing from normals and Roma alike and who started it is lost in the mists of time.
But, hey, I’m a Didicoy, so eternally stuck in the middle.
(Paternal Great Grandmother married a house dweller. Still meet up with cousins occasionally, though they’re usually somewhere in Europe. I have no clue what brexit will mean for them).

[petejh]

Travellers generally act like a bunch of cunts best avoided and left well-alone. But I've admiration for their independence and self-reliance; and to be fair they're living in a time when a lot of people act like cunts best avoided and left well-alone.

[Oldmanmatt]

Travellers generally act like a bunch of cunts best avoided and left well-alone. But I've admiration for their independence and self-reliance; and to be fair they're living in a time when a lot of people act like cunts best avoided and left well-alone.

‘Tis true, unfortunately. But I’d ask you to remember there are many different “tribes” and some are nicer than others.
Most Cyganie suck, for instance. They seem to gravitate to picking pockets and mugging. Usually referred to as Romanians in press, which pisses off actual Romanians to no end. The Cyganie were simply trapped in Eastern Europe when the Iron Curtain dropped in 45.

Thing is, you won’t have noticed the “good” Romani, they just wander through your life with barely a ripple. They were probably running a fairground ride or a food stall and there for few days, then gone. Nothing stolen, no pile of shit or dumped caravans.

They’re no more fond of “the others” than you are.

[petejh]

Oh I totally accept there are good and bad. I actually quite respect even the ‘best-avoided’ one’s attitude of ‘fuck everyone’. They’re life’s survivors, if civilisation ever fell they’d probably be fine while many of us wouldn’t be.

[Somebody's Fool]

Some more marxist diatribe. From an economics professor at Oxford.

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2019/11/corbyn-and-antisemitism.html

PS I'm not posting these articles to annoy - just trying to offer a different viewpoint to whatever you lot are reading on the Guardian. So if replies could avoid rage, rudeness or dismissiveness that would be much appreciated!