UKBouldering.com

2019 December General Election (Read 166234 times)

Will Hunt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Superworm is super-long
  • Posts: 7976
  • Karma: +631/-115
    • Unknown Stones
#575 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 08, 2019, 10:18:00 pm
Sorry to raise the old antisemitism thing again. Caff posted about this article on Twitter and asked people for their opinions of it, saying he thought it was mostly lies. I read the article (it's long and a bit of an exhausting read, so thorough is it) and commented back to Caff.

I can only assume that one of us has completely and utterly lost the plot because I read it and thought it contained a very large volume of evidence (of varying strengths) which together make a compelling case for a big problem at the top of the party. Caff read it and thought it was total lies, misinformation and contained "zero evidence".
We can't both be right.

If you can spare the time, I'd be interested to hear what people think of it - including those who have previously defended Corbyn on the issue on this thread. But please - don't comment either way unless you're prepared to read the article in full.

Article:
https://medium.com/@sararoseofficial/everything-i-never-wanted-to-have-to-know-about-labour-and-antisemitism-649b5bc1e576

Twitter discussion (he only calls me gullible; I can't claim to be a cyber-wanker yet):
https://twitter.com/McHaffieJames/status/1203365825807355905?s=20
https://twitter.com/Will_Hunt/status/1203411836986626048

Sorry if it's not clear where all my replies are. Conversations on Twitter make my head spin. How are you meant to keep track of all the different tangents a thread takes?

seankenny

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1007
  • Karma: +114/-11
#576 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 08, 2019, 10:36:14 pm
I have started reading the article and will finish it tomorrow. I also “interacted” with Caff. His comments were unpleasant for a private individual but quite simply unacceptable for a BMC Ambassador - to the point where I’m going to put in a complaint in to the organisation. We can’t have someone as a public face of our sport if they dismiss mass allegations of racism for political ends.

Will Hunt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Superworm is super-long
  • Posts: 7976
  • Karma: +631/-115
    • Unknown Stones
#577 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 08, 2019, 10:43:22 pm
I have started reading the article and will finish it tomorrow. I also “interacted” with Caff. His comments were unpleasant for a private individual but quite simply unacceptable for a BMC Ambassador - to the point where I’m going to put in a complaint in to the organisation. We can’t have someone as a public face of our sport if they dismiss mass allegations of racism for political ends.

I'm not sure that's a helpful response, Sean. If indeed he is wrong about this, which I think he is (but who knows, I'm not infallible), then he's certainly not the only one. I'd rather that people had the space to speak openly about this stuff without having to worry about getting in trouble with their employer. Hypothetically he could see my views as being very problematic and report me to my employer - where does that get us?

Fultonius

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4315
  • Karma: +138/-3
  • Was strong but crap, now weaker but better.
    • Photos
#578 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 08, 2019, 10:49:37 pm
Sorry to raise the old antisemitism thing again. Caff posted about this article on Twitter and asked people for their opinions of it, saying he thought it was mostly lies. I read the article (it's long and a bit of an exhausting read, so thorough is it) and commented back to Caff.

I can only assume that one of us has completely and utterly lost the plot because I read it and thought it contained a very large volume of evidence (of varying strengths) which together make a compelling case for a big problem at the top of the party. Caff read it and thought it was total lies, misinformation and contained "zero evidence".
We can't both be right.

If you can spare the time, I'd be interested to hear what people think of it - including those who have previously defended Corbyn on the issue on this thread. But please - don't comment either way unless you're prepared to read the article in full.

Article:
https://medium.com/@sararoseofficial/everything-i-never-wanted-to-have-to-know-about-labour-and-antisemitism-649b5bc1e576

Twitter discussion (he only calls me gullible; I can't claim to be a cyber-wanker yet):
https://twitter.com/McHaffieJames/status/1203365825807355905?s=20
https://twitter.com/Will_Hunt/status/1203411836986626048

Sorry if it's not clear where all my replies are. Conversations on Twitter make my head spin. How are you meant to keep track of all the different tangents a thread takes?

I read it all earlier today. I've not followed through all the links, watched a few videos. It's certainly a large body alluding to many events. It seems it's largely to paint a picture of "guilty by association", rather than "guilty by action" but it has finally shed some light on many of the issues that have been raised.

That's all I'm saying for now, as I'm taking a back seat on all this.

seankenny

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1007
  • Karma: +114/-11
#579 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 08, 2019, 11:05:59 pm
I have started reading the article and will finish it tomorrow. I also “interacted” with Caff. His comments were unpleasant for a private individual but quite simply unacceptable for a BMC Ambassador - to the point where I’m going to put in a complaint in to the organisation. We can’t have someone as a public face of our sport if they dismiss mass allegations of racism for political ends.

I'm not sure that's a helpful response, Sean. If indeed he is wrong about this, which I think he is (but who knows, I'm not infallible), then he's certainly not the only one. I'd rather that people had the space to speak openly about this stuff without having to worry about getting in trouble with their employer. Hypothetically he could see my views as being very problematic and report me to my employer - where does that get us?

He takes money from an organisation committed to opening up climbing to parts of British society who don’t take part in it now. That means the BMC has to take racism seriously and so do its employees and its public faces. If anyone who believes mass allegations of racism is “gullible” then how can the BMC be sure that he will uphold its ethos?

As ever, replace Jew with black and ask if it would be okay. I’m complaining because I don’t want his attitudes to racism to be acceptable - and because I think climbing has a bit of a blind spot on race, for a bunch of reasons. So we need to do better.


Offwidth

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1767
  • Karma: +57/-13
    • Offwidth
#580 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 09, 2019, 01:06:14 am
Well if they can be bothered to vote tactically, they may like to read this:

The top 50 seats to vote tactically to avoid a Tory majority

That list looks mad. The East Midlands has a few big marginals and they show Rushcliffe??? I'd be delighted if the tories lost there due to Ken's past opposition of brexit, but it's a super safe tory seat. Ashfield is top of the list (likely tory win due to the brexit factor) but due to Anna Soubry splitting the vote Broxtowe might well go to Labour.

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/seatdetails.py?seat=Rushcliffe

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/area_emids.html

https://www.remainunited.org/marginal-seats/


« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 01:14:02 am by Offwidth »

Offwidth

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1767
  • Karma: +57/-13
    • Offwidth
#581 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 09, 2019, 01:23:27 am
I have started reading the article and will finish it tomorrow. I also “interacted” with Caff. His comments were unpleasant for a private individual but quite simply unacceptable for a BMC Ambassador - to the point where I’m going to put in a complaint in to the organisation. We can’t have someone as a public face of our sport if they dismiss mass allegations of racism for political ends.

I'm not sure that's a helpful response, Sean. If indeed he is wrong about this, which I think he is (but who knows, I'm not infallible), then he's certainly not the only one. I'd rather that people had the space to speak openly about this stuff without having to worry about getting in trouble with their employer. Hypothetically he could see my views as being very problematic and report me to my employer - where does that get us?

He takes money from an organisation committed to opening up climbing to parts of British society who don’t take part in it now. That means the BMC has to take racism seriously and so do its employees and its public faces. If anyone who believes mass allegations of racism is “gullible” then how can the BMC be sure that he will uphold its ethos?

As ever, replace Jew with black and ask if it would be okay. I’m complaining because I don’t want his attitudes to racism to be acceptable - and because I think climbing has a bit of a blind spot on race, for a bunch of reasons. So we need to do better.

Where is he abusing BMC communications? As a citizen he has a right to his opinions. Just to be clear I think the Labour handling of antisemitism is appalling,  but most Labour critics of some of the backlash are at most just naive rather than racist. I also don't think Caff is racist from knowing him. If you look at the Fail and Times headlines today the tory papers are making much unfair mischief on the subject, so it's very political. Labour under Corbyn is the biggest threat to world jews according to the Fail. Ludicrous propaganda.

andy popp

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 5525
  • Karma: +347/-5
#582 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 09, 2019, 06:09:47 am
For all the undoubted importance of this election, which is hard to over estimate, I've encountered pretty much zero interest in it or Brexit amongst colleagues and acquaintances here in Denmark, a slight shrug of the shoulders at most. The whole thing appears as little more than an uninteresting farce. It's sobering.

TobyD

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3827
  • Karma: +88/-3
  • Job offers gratefully accepted
#583 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 09, 2019, 08:53:01 am
It's an uninspiring election,  the sheer cynicism shown by both main parties in totally undeliverable promises,  over simplistic slogans (especially the conservatives) and lack of any discernible respect for voters intelligence. 
Andrew Rawnsley noted in the Observer yesterday
 "(If) the Tories win a majority they have done nothing to deserve, the lasting legacy of Labour’s Corbynite era will be another five years of Conservative government."
I almost feel as though the issue over Corbyns antisemitism problems is increasingly irrelevant as surely he personally cannot outlast another defeat? What, however will the conservative party do now its pitching for a totally different section of electorate than even 2 years ago?

Offwidth

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1767
  • Karma: +57/-13
    • Offwidth
#584 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 09, 2019, 09:25:56 am
It's a result of the black hole of brexit sucking in political energy as much as purges of the best minds from the top of both main parties.

If the Boris brexit tips a fragile world economy into a protectionist linked crash, the Danes might pay attention. I'm terrified that we hear very few voices other than those of our politicians and the media circus that surrounds them. Boris's plans are dangerously unrealistic.. the CBI must know that, our economists must know that, our trade experts must know that, our allies and trading partners must know that. 

As for the character of the man. Max Hastings, his old boss at the Telegraph, summed him up best:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/24/boris-johnson-prime-minister-tory-party-britain
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 09:35:17 am by Offwidth »

joeisidle

Offline
  • **
  • addict
  • Posts: 148
  • Karma: +6/-0
#585 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 09, 2019, 01:16:06 pm
Sorry to raise the old antisemitism thing again. Caff posted about this article on Twitter and asked people for their opinions of it, saying he thought it was mostly lies. I read the article (it's long and a bit of an exhausting read, so thorough is it) and commented back to Caff.

I can only assume that one of us has completely and utterly lost the plot because I read it and thought it contained a very large volume of evidence (of varying strengths) which together make a compelling case for a big problem at the top of the party. Caff read it and thought it was total lies, misinformation and contained "zero evidence".
We can't both be right.

If you can spare the time, I'd be interested to hear what people think of it - including those who have previously defended Corbyn on the issue on this thread. But please - don't comment either way unless you're prepared to read the article in full.

Article:
https://medium.com/@sararoseofficial/everything-i-never-wanted-to-have-to-know-about-labour-and-antisemitism-649b5bc1e576

Twitter discussion (he only calls me gullible; I can't claim to be a cyber-wanker yet):
https://twitter.com/McHaffieJames/status/1203365825807355905?s=20
https://twitter.com/Will_Hunt/status/1203411836986626048

Sorry if it's not clear where all my replies are. Conversations on Twitter make my head spin. How are you meant to keep track of all the different tangents a thread takes?

Read through the article and skimmed its sources. It’s a little bit frightening to watch the dismissive reaction from others in the climbing community on Twitter. Clearly Corbyn is far from being the politician with the biggest problem with race in this country, but I can’t compute how someone could read the article and the numerous sources it provides and not maybe stop to think if there’s more to this than just “the media’s smear campaign”.

I will be voting Labour for many of the reasons that the author highlights towards the end of the article, even if she’s reached a different conclusion on how to vote herself. However, even if the media’s coverage of this could be argued to be disproportionate, I really hope (but doubt) that Labour’s campaigning base will reflect that there might be less for the right-wing media to spin against the party on this if they gave them less ammunition.

Offwidth

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1767
  • Karma: +57/-13
    • Offwidth
#586 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 10, 2019, 07:14:35 am
To be read alongside this view that I linked earlier (thanks again to Deepsoup)

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/writingfromtheedge/2019/11/as-a-british-jew-im-not-fearful-of-a-corbyn-government-but-im-horrified-at-how-antisemitism-is-being-used-against-him/

For balance we have a fun link from Peter Oborne ... the tory commentator

https://boris-johnson-lies.com/
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 07:44:39 am by Offwidth »

Will Hunt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Superworm is super-long
  • Posts: 7976
  • Karma: +631/-115
    • Unknown Stones
#587 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 10, 2019, 10:16:00 am
The Patheos article has a central argument that because the Labour government are not planning a genocide, the discussion of antisemitism is overblown. I've seen the article before when a friend posted it to Facebook. She said: "I have Jewish ancestry and distant relatives in Israel. I don't feel threatened by a Labour government. They're hardly comparable to Nazi Germany".

Is that really where the bar should be set? I am not Jewish, but that strikes me as a horribly naive and insensitive attitude. Even if we are not facing an imminent genocide, we should hold the party to account on this, especially since Labour is a party that is supposed to have anti-racism at its very core.

And not least because for some people it will make it impossible to vote for the party - the only party that can feasibly form a non-Conservative government. The institutionalisation of the antisemitism was the final straw that led me to leave the party. It was also the thing I agonised over most when deciding how to vote in this election. The issue plays too easily into the hands of the Conservatives who only need people to not vote Labour to win.

Even if we are not concerned that a Labour government might actively persecute Jews, we should be concerned about what it might do to embolden antisemites: in precisely the same way that many of us here were concerned at the spike in hate crimes that followed the Brexit referendum.

Have people even read the IHRA definition? I am not an expert on this issue, but I know enough to see that there is a problem.

The videos in this Twitter thread are not evidence of institutional antisemitism on their own, but how can these people have so little awareness to go to a Labour event and start shouting antisemitic things at the Jewish protesters who are there to make the case that there is antisemitism in the party?

https://twitter.com/hannah1_rose/status/1204066428950855680?s=19
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 10:28:41 am by Will Hunt »

galpinos

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2114
  • Karma: +85/-1
#588 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 10, 2019, 10:29:55 am
I find the whole anti-Semitism issue difficult. Being in Manchester, there is a pretty sizable Jewish population and having canvassed some opinion, it still does not seem clear cut. The views expressed ranged from there being no more an issue with anti-Semitism in the Labour party than the population as a whole, the Tories are equally anti-Semitic, to Corbyn is one step away from Hitler, and all opinions seemed to be clouded significantly by party politics.

My frustration lies with the fact that even if it isn’t as big a problem as is being made out, even if it is just being weaponised by the mainstream right-wing press, it should have and could have been stamped out pretty early on but has been allowed to fester and undermine a flawed but hopeful and positive manifesto.

Why JC couldn’t just say, “I’m sorry Jewish people feel there is a problem with anti-Semitism in the Labour Party, the fact they feel they can’t vote for Labour is awful and if Jewish people feel that then we have a problem then we have a problem and we have to do something about it and we will do something about it”.

The fact the Tories seem to be perceived as the less racist party is just bonkers.

seankenny

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1007
  • Karma: +114/-11
#589 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 10, 2019, 10:36:39 am
Corbyn can’t say that because he is part of the problem.

Offwidth

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1767
  • Karma: +57/-13
    • Offwidth
#590 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 10, 2019, 11:52:55 am
Hi Will

It's a genuine opinion and it clearly indicates that not all moderate jews in Labour feel the same way. Its not my opinion as I personally think that the handling of antisemitism complaints in Labour was appalling for a progressive party and that the  threats, including a few death threats, that were made to complainents,  were terrifying for a progressive party.

McDonnell has now apologised for the party's failue to get this right several times and admitted it has damaged the party in the Marr show on Sunday. That forensic interviewer Philip Schofield finally got Corbyn to apologise earlier in the week.

In contrast, the Fail said on it's headline a few days back that Corbyn was the biggest world threat to jews. The tories investigated clear public evidence of many cases of Islamophobia by some undefined process that led to the perpetrators to nearly all be back in post within days; plus they have their own antisemitism complaints.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 12:00:41 pm by Offwidth »

tomtom

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 20282
  • Karma: +641/-11
#591 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 10, 2019, 11:58:06 am
Anyway, Ashworth has fucked up today for the LP - which is overshadowing (in some outlets) Johnsons fuck ups...

Offwidth

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1767
  • Karma: +57/-13
    • Offwidth
#592 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 10, 2019, 12:02:43 pm
Anyway, Ashworth has fucked up today for the LP - which is overshadowing (in some outlets) Johnsons fuck ups...

 He says what was a good conservative friend of his deliberately misreported some friendly joking as fact. However that can only really apply to saying Labour would lose, having just read the full transcript. He admits it makes him look like a 'plonker'.

Anyhow ... the latest tory chicanary:

https://mobile.twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1204175955314577410
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 12:29:31 pm by Offwidth »

Will Hunt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Superworm is super-long
  • Posts: 7976
  • Karma: +631/-115
    • Unknown Stones
#593 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 10, 2019, 12:42:11 pm
It's a genuine opinion and it clearly indicates that not all moderate jews in Labour feel the same way.
Fair enough. Though if the surveys are representative then that proportion may be as little as 13%.

Its not my opinion as I personally think that the handling of antisemitism complaints in Labour was appalling for a progressive party and that the  threats, including a few death threats, that were made to complainents,  were terrifying for a progressive party.
We're in agreement here - so surely the correct response is to make a noise about this until the leadership fixes the issue?

McDonnell has now apologised for the party's failue to get this right several times and admitted it has damaged the party in the Marr show on Sunday. That forensic interviewer Philip Schofield finally got Corbyn to apologise earlier in the week.
McDonnell has, from what I've seen, been much better on this than JC, but he is the Shadow Chancellor, not the leader.
I have a feeling that JC may have apologised before for this, though I can't remember for sure. If anyone has a citation then it'd be welcome. If this is the first time he's apologised, one has to wonder why (after the issue has dogged the party for well over a year) the apology is delivered with less than a week to go to the election - far too late to have real impact.

In contrast, the Fail said on it's headline a few days back that Corbyn was the biggest world threat to jews. The tories investigated clear public evidence of many cases of Islamophobia by some undefined process that led to the perpetrators to nearly all be back in post within days; plus they have their own antisemitism complaints.
I'm not in the business of defending the Mail, vile rag that it is. The question of exactly how racist the Tory party is (very, duh) is completely irrelevant here. Not being quite as racist as the other lot is neither a fitting aspiration nor a defence.


I'm not sure if you have, but if you haven't please set aside 45 minutes to properly read and absorb the Medium article that I linked to - the one that Caff was so keen to discredit.

Apologies from the top are one thing. What I really want to see is clear evidence that the problems with the party's complaints and disciplinary procedure have been addressed. If someone can put that in front of me then I will very happily read it and change my view accordingly. I don't want this to be an issue that needs to be continually discussed, but until it is properly dealt with then I'm afraid we must discuss it.

Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 7097
  • Karma: +368/-17
  • Largely broken. Obsolete spares and scrap only.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
#594 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 10, 2019, 01:10:47 pm
In the end, this is really just an awful lot of words to say “if McDonnell (or just about anyone but Corbyn) was the leader, Labour would be on for a landslide”.

Well, the LP will have five years of increasing devastation of public spending, lowering living standards, increased homelessness and poverty; to boost their new leader, before their first electoral test in 2025 or so...

Offwidth

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1767
  • Karma: +57/-13
    • Offwidth
#595 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 10, 2019, 06:29:55 pm
Hi Will   I can't see how anyone can be made happy about the complaints processes right now as we are in the middle of ongoing independant investigations and some cases are yet to be resolved.  That we are here in an election is due to Labour shooting themselves in the foot repeatedly:  anyone with half a brain must have realised this would never just go away. The comparison of tory and Labour racism is important as one or the other of the parties will provide our next PM... however in a minority Labour government Labour policy will require compromise (and antisemitism issues could well be part of that, given those Labour MPs who moved to the Lib Dems over this).

Evidence of hacked accounts already for the link I provided above (somone trying to fool the public that the incident of the boy on the floor of the hospital was faked). This public manipulation from the tory side is becoming increasingly orwellian daily.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/dec/10/woman-says-account-hacked-to-post-fake-story-about-hospital-boy

TobyD

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3827
  • Karma: +88/-3
  • Job offers gratefully accepted
#596 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 10, 2019, 10:48:57 pm
Hi Will   I can't see how anyone can be made happy about the complaints processes right now as we are in the middle of ongoing independant investigations and some cases are yet to be resolved.  That we are here in an election is due to Labour shooting themselves in the foot repeatedly:  anyone with half a brain must have realised this would never just go away. The comparison of tory and Labour racism is important as one or the other of the parties will provide our next PM... however in a minority Labour government Labour policy will require compromise (and antisemitism issues could well be part of that, given those Labour MPs who moved to the Lib Dems over this).

Evidence of hacked accounts already for the link I provided above (somone trying to fool the public that the incident of the boy on the floor of the hospital was faked). This public manipulation from the tory side is becoming increasingly orwellian daily.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/dec/10/woman-says-account-hacked-to-post-fake-story-about-hospital-boy

It may well be that the conservative party is broadcasting its newspeak to credulous  voters but the reaction of the left seems to have been remarkably ineffectual.  Demanding fair play with other like minded individuals,  it seems to me,  will achieve nothing against a powerful narrative that Labour will wreck the economy,  let in immigrants and threaten national security.  I have little doubt that Boris Johnson abandoned any attachment to telling the truth many years ago, but it has to be said that hes made something of a success of it for himself.  It seems that other parties have run out of road to do anything about this now, and he'll probably get his solid majority. 
Working out how to counter the willingness of populist leaders to lie daily ought to be the first priority of the opposition parties,  both here and in the USA.  Sadly,  I'm not sure either is near success,  although I hope I'm wrong. 

abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4289
  • Karma: +341/-25
#597 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 11, 2019, 09:33:26 am
In the end, this is really just an awful lot of words to say “if McDonnell (or just about anyone but Corbyn) was the leader, Labour would be on for a landslide”.

Every time I see/hear McDonnell give an interview I wish he were in charge instead of JC.

the reaction of the left seems to have been remarkably ineffectual

Corbyn had an open goal to smash Boris on this (truth, honesty, lies etc) at the end of the last leaders debate, and he let it slide past. Surely none of the "we love JC" brigade watched that and thought he was doing a good job?

Offwidth

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1767
  • Karma: +57/-13
    • Offwidth
#598 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 11, 2019, 09:33:57 am
I think  Boris will be hated for generations if he wins and as likely things will quickly turn to custard; so in that sense his personal dishonesty will come back to bite him. The tory party has had its most voter friendly wing cut off and will struggle with that (unless we go down a popularist plughole). List the big name tory MP moderates left that you can't count on one hand.

As for the latest polls the gap has closed 2 points and the youth vote and an almost certain increase tactical voting won't be factored in properly. Nor will local oddities like Broxtowe, where the split vote for Anna Soubry and a very active team on the ground makes a Labour victory there likely. The swing the tories always needed given Scotland and the S and SW seats still looks to be around 10% in those northern and midlands Labour marginals. This election is very close.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/11/tories-still-favourites-but-hung-parliament-a-real-possibly-polling-suggests

Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 7097
  • Karma: +368/-17
  • Largely broken. Obsolete spares and scrap only.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
#599 Re: 2019 December General Election
December 11, 2019, 10:02:57 am
I have a sneaking suspicion about the first paragraph of Offwidth’s last post.

I sometimes feel like Labour, or any of the opposition parties, actually don’t  want to win.

I think all the parties know that things will head south and much pain lies ahead. We all know Brexit is unavoidable and that it will not be good, short term, or within a timeframe that the average voter will appreciate. Regardless of your long term hopes Pete.

I think that’s why the Con moderates have retreated into the background, I don’t truly believe they were forced out. I think they plan a glorious return to save the party and bring back sense (that might even be their tag line, two years from now).

I think Labour don’t really want to carry the can. Too many missed opportunities, too many open goals ignored. It’s stretching credulity that they are truly that inept.

I think the LD positioned themselves as flat out Revoke, because, should they win, that would be a clear mandate. Otherwise, better to keep your hands clean and let everyone forget about that whole coalition thing.


SNP, are probably the only party with genuine grins, right now.

Government is a poison chalice, for the next five years.

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal