[teestub]

I know in this election most people won’t be voting this way, but always interesting to see which policies float your boat when compared side by side https://voteforpolicies.org.uk/

[Will Hunt]

A plane just flew over our house in the Aire Valley towing a banner which said, "Remainers are kaput" with a hammer and sickle next to it.

[tomtom]

A plane just flew over our house in the Aire Valley towing a banner which said, "Remainers are kaput" with a hammer and sickle next to it.

And we’d though Jacob ReesMogg was under Tory house arrest

[nai]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/29/opinion/britain-election-disinformation-johnson.html

[Offwidth]

Apparently some people want a broad church, so long as the socialists sit at the back and keep their mouths shut.

A clear majority of the party would describe themselves as socialists, including the PLP, and nearly all of  the PLP are to the right of Corbyn. I'd say the key problem here is the other way round... Momentum regarding much of the PLP as not being socialist enough... and abusing party policy to try to shrink the breadth of that church. If you can't convince swing votors to vote for you, you will never become a majority government.

What we face right now is bigger than party politics as brexit could be horrendous with such an out of control, dishonest  and dangerous government... I have no idea what Boris and co will do if, as likely, it all turns to custard but it certainly wont be anything good... hard right liars in government in troubled times don't have a great record.

[SamT]

https://news.sky.com/story/corbyn-and-johnson-in-row-over-early-release-of-london-bridge-killer-11875070

 

Why can the man not just think "what are the headlines going to say" before opening his trap.  I have read the full context of what he 'actually' says,

He added: "There has to be an examination of what goes on in the prison, because prisons ought to be a place where people are put away because of major serious offences but also a place where rehabilitation takes place."

but every voter, queuing to pay for their petrol today, will be idly scanning the headlines on the news paper rack and this is what they'll read.

(clever innit, the papers dont actually need people to buy the papers to get their message across, and I thought subliminal advertising was illegal).

interestingly,if you read further..

he father of Jack Merritt, the 25-year-old who was killed in Friday's attack, has urged politicians not to enforce "draconian" sentences.

According to CambridgeshireLive, David Merritt said: "My son, Jack, who was killed in this attack, would not wish his death to be used as the pretext for more draconian sentences or for detaining people unnecessarily.

Which is what JC was probably picking up on.

[Offwidth]

I don't really disagree with what you say either but I was pointing out centrists have most influence and determine all UK elections, and I see too much arguing shades of grey and various colours when I think we face a stark black and white decision, with Boris and his oven ready brexit (as much because of what he might do when it goes wrong as the event itself)  This is not helpful, and the clock is ticking. Its a risk-consequence argument. Both leaders if they had all their MPs behind them would likely cause much damage (and comparative estimates would depend on observer political views), but the risk of a Corbyn madness after this election is 0% and that of a Boris madness about 50%.

The same argument applies to climate change...middle Britian is obsessed with distracting itself with individual and random shit, when we need worldwide political change really soon, as the latest data seems to show we are in more trouble than we thought. The green movement is way bigger than the Green party, and voting Green (in safe seats) helps, and doesn't put Jonathan Bartley in power. As support grows for green policy (it will,  but hopefully not too late)  it's better to take the bus driver with the odd view,  who is there, than wait however long  for a new driver on a necessary journey.

[Oldmanmatt]

But this is the problem.
Currently Labour don’t oppose the Tories.
They oppose everybody and everything from the PLP right. They represent a small fringe. End of.
So the vast majority of those who wish to not vote Tory, have no realistic place to go, with leaping out of the frying pan into a loony left fire.
Sorry Simon, I like you, personally, but I don’t want a socialist paradise; because I have first hand experience of want that actually means.
Humans don’t do what they’re supposed to, when idealists try and impose they’re dreams on reality. All those Tory voters, for instance, are not just going to buckle under and toe the party line.

[seankenny]

Apparently some people want a broad church, so long as the socialists sit at the back and keep their mouths shut.

This is what people usually do after doing stupid and damaging things.

Personally I think that most of the PLP would describe themselves as social democrats, and I think on this sort of platform Labour might be in with a chance. I'm not convinced by Offwidth's 0% chance of Corbyn madness. Consider his utter mishandling of the anti-semitism issue, which was obviously a problem that could (and has) caused a great deal of damage, but had a pretty straightforward solution; it's clear the guy is just too thick and unimaginative to deal with it, but expelling a few hundred vile racists (which included his friends) is a piece of piss in comparison to the many challenges of being PM. Corybn has no sense, I think, of unintended consequences, of policies throwing up weird incentives or just being plain difficult to enact properly. He can't work closely with the PLP, how on earth is he going to negotiate for the UK on the international stage? Is he going to be able to stand up to the likes of Len McCluskey when Len wants to throw his weight around?

Both Corbyn and Johnson are over-promoted idiots, showing up the weakness of our ruling class, and whilst I think Johnson would be way worse, it's not as if Corbyn won't be damaging too.

[Offwidth]

But this is the problem.

Its the wrong problem.

"Currently Labour don’t oppose the Tories.They oppose everybody and everything from the PLP right. They represent a small fringe."

This is dangerously simplistic (as many Labour MPs are good) and an argument that is irrelevant in this election.

"End of. So the vast majority of those who wish to not vote Tory, have no realistic place to go, with leaping out of the frying pan into a loony left fire."

Yes they do have somewhere to go... as voting-in good Labour MPs in Labour marginals in this election (and Lib Dem in the S and SW tory marginals) is important and has zero risk in 'loony left' terms, as even in a Labour majority situation the moderate MPs won't let Corbyn get all his own way (just as the moderate tory MPs blocked the idocy of Boris). Labour unlike the tories has lots of moderate MPs

"Sorry Simon, I like you, personally, but I don’t want a socialist paradise; because I have first hand experience of want that actually means."

I can see a Socialist paradise being possible, but so far the exploitation of power, the geopolitics and the opposition to such regimes led to those totalitarian or failed states. Communist parties run cities and states pretty well in some democratic countries.

"Humans don’t do what they’re supposed to, when idealists try and impose they’re dreams on reality. All those Tory voters, for instance, are not just going to buckle under and toe the party line."

Another red herring... we face a real danger with Boris and co,  and plenty of tory voters know that and are now voting Lib Dem... their human failings mean too many will 'cut off their nose to spite their face', so never vote Labour even when its the best way of blocking Boris  (I have the same failing in the other direction, but I do recognise without brave tory MPs who lost their immediate career we wouldn't even be in this fight)

[Offwidth]

I'm not convinced by Offwidth's 0% chance of Corbyn madness. Consider his utter mishandling of the anti-semitism issue, which was obviously a problem that could (and has) caused a great deal of damage, but had a pretty straightforward solution; it's clear the guy is just too thick and unimaginative to deal with it, but expelling a few hundred vile racists (which included his friends) is a piece of piss in comparison to the many challenges of being PM. Corybn has no sense, I think, of unintended consequences, of policies throwing up weird incentives or just being plain difficult to enact properly. He can't work closely with the PLP, how on earth is he going to negotiate for the UK on the international stage? Is he going to be able to stand up to the likes of Len McCluskey when Len wants to throw his weight around?

Thats because you're ignoring the realistic impact of all those good MPs (including some socialists) and the political reality of any minority government; and falling for irrelevant tory press tropes and internal party problems that of course have reduced Labour's electoral chances. Sure Len will still be influential, sure some more bad decisions will be made, and the stock markets always dislike a hung parliament. However, there is simply is no likelihood of any country enveloping madness from Labour in this election, even if they win (as they can't win big).

Given what we face from Boris, it's completely safe to vote to protect all those Labour marginals from the alternative this time. When this Boris brexit and this incredibly reactionary (even for the tories) government line-up is removed, we can all return to more normal party politics.

[seankenny]

falling for irrelevant tory press tropes

I would really, really appreciate it if you stopped this line altogether. Like I'm some kind of sucker for Tory lies and you - with seer-like powers - have seen through them.

Firstly, it's just arrogant. I'm not some political naif. Secondly, you're making all sorts of assumptions about the media I consume, assumptions which are simply wrong. Thirdly, it's utterly unpersuasive and counter-productive to your cause.

I doubt you will, however, as "everyone but us has fallen for the lies" is the de rigeur delusion for modern Labour. But it would be nice if you could try.

Thats because you're ignoring the realistic impact of all those good MPs (including some socialists) and the political reality of any minority government; and falling for irrelevant tory press tropes and internal party problems that of course have reduced Labour's electoral chances. Sure Len will still be influential, sure some more bad decisions will be made, and the stock markets always dislike a hung parliament. However, there is simply is no likelihood of any country enveloping madness from Labour in this election, even if they win (as they can't win big).

I've seen the impact of those good MPs first hand. My local MP is really decent but daren't say anything about the anti-semitism crisis because she'd be at risk of deselection. The mob will pick of individual MPs who speak up, ministerial posts will be dangled in front of others, and anyhow Labour MPs have shown themselves spectacularly spineless in the face of Corbyn and his idiocy. Has it ever occured to you that Len McCluskey, a Brexiter who, when democratically challenged on his leadership took his opponent to court, is exactly the sort of person I don't want having any say in the future of the UK? I'm both left-wing and liberal, whereas it's clear McCluskey is far left and authoritarian: and to me, those people are big, big trouble.

I note that Cameron led a minority government and it was a disaster for the UK.

Given what we face from Boris, it's completely safe to vote to protect all those Labour marginals from the alternative this time. When this Boris brexit and this incredibly reactionary (even for the tories) government line-up is removed, we can all return to more normal party politics.

I agree that Boris and his cronies will be a disaster. Not sure about a return to more normal politics. Consider Brutus' remark above: like all the populists of left and right, he sees no failure too big that it can be an obstacle to continuing to suggest stupid things to do.

[Offwidth]

Sean, my concern is not with your fair criticism of Labour mistakes, it's with not recognising the much greater risks from our actions allowing someone else in, who will almost certainly make more and bigger mistakes, and who will stand by this real madness that Boris has started (as all but a tiny minority of tory MPs will). Who seriously expects any MP to be perfect? The question is always how they and their government compare to the alternative; and this time the answer to that question seems very stark to me; more so than in any other election in my lifetime.  So no, with so much at stake I'm not going to be quiet.

If you think I'm wrong about 0%, why not explain the catastrophic damage a Labour minority government can do to the country (rather than to themselves). I can see nothing that compares to this fantasy of a brexit and these libertarian minded liars selling the people of Britian a one nation illusion. When it all unravels what do you think will happen?... that they will all say sorry and resign??

When anyone tells you they think Corbyn is a danger, they are right but that danger is to him and his party, not to the UK (in anything but this gives Boris a better chance of winning).  That he is a danger to the UK is one half of the tory press big lie in this election alongside the getting brexit done with an oven ready deal. Since he is still the Labour leader we have to do the best we can despite that. Voting for good Labour MPs in Labour marginals is no risk.

[Oldmanmatt]

I’ve been in a wedding, since my last post this morning (just managed to sneak off for a few minutes before the reception), I missed the Bojo interview, because we were driving etc.

I understand it was a train wreck and in a just world, enough to end his run.

But it wasn’t.

Offwidth, I think you are missing my point, it doesn’t matter what I or you believe or hope, only what the electorate at large percieve.
You are preaching to the choir!

Opened FB to find out how the interview went, this was the top of my timeline. It’s a left leaning, Labour supporting friend; who is usually trying to convince me to move to the left.
I haven’t capped to comments, there are too many (left, center and right) but the upshot is he’s voting LD.
He knows it will be a wasted vote.

[Offwidth]

I am asking for people to try and change perceptions, where the perception is untrue or being used to hide an even worse evil from Boris's side. I have no concerns about UKB users understanding my argument, but how many will act on it beyond their own vote?

Boris in his Marr interview blamed Labour for the early release that enabled the terrorism this week.

Those same Facebook themes on Corbyn's links to terrorists came up in 2017, yet Labour did well enough then to prevent a tory majority. People who think that way on that issue probably won't ever change. What Corbyn did was wrong but is not a serious  threat to the UK if he ends up leading a UK minority government (in a Parliament which includes Sinn Fein MPs, who don't take their seats in protest).

[TobyD]

I can see a Socialist paradise being possible, but so far the exploitation of power, the geopolitics and the opposition to such regimes led to those totalitarian or failed states. Communist parties run cities and states pretty well in some democratic countries.

Really? Where? Perhaps the fact that its 'some' tells you something? Communism in the former USSR was an economic and social disaster which morphed into today's brand of gangster capitalism in Russia under Putin. Venezuela,  Cuba... none of these are prosperous,  desirable places to live. Eastern European Communism again,  hardly a roaring success.  Where has done well?
Social democracy,  sure but socialist paradise?

[Will Hunt]

The Aztecs had some quite progressive policies but did also cut the hearts from the living bodies of their human sacrifices.
 

[Offwidth]

I can see a Socialist paradise being possible, but so far the exploitation of power, the geopolitics and the opposition to such regimes led to those totalitarian or failed states. Communist parties run cities and states pretty well in some democratic countries.

Really? Where? Perhaps the fact that its 'some' tells you something? Communism in the former USSR was an economic and social disaster which morphed into today's brand of gangster capitalism in Russia under Putin. Venezuela,  Cuba... none of these are prosperous,  desirable places to live. Eastern European Communism again,  hardly a roaring success.  Where has done well?
Social democracy,  sure but socialist paradise?

Those are countries... but you forgot Nepal and that Cyprus had a communist majority about a decade back .....examples of  internal states are Kerala and Maranhao... quite a few cities and thousands of towns (many hundreds in France) have had a communist authority or mayor.

[i.munro]

He knows it will be a wasted vote.

If only it would be  wasted !!  it's effectively  a vote for the Tories.

[teestub]

If only it would be  wasted !!  it's effectively  a vote for the Tories.

That’s a very constituency dependent statement!

[Offwidth]

Most progressive minded people who won't vote otherwise or who are in a safe seat can always vote Green. This won't elect many Green MPs but it will add pressure to the other parties on climate change. In that respect there is no such thing as a wasted vote for a progressive. You can be sure that most reactionaries will vote brexit (big or little B), which means for once its not just the marginals that count .....nearly all votes will count in our FPTP system.

[i.munro]

That’s a very constituency dependent statement!

Well hopefully!

[Nutty]

.....nearly all votes will count in our FPTP system.

Pull the other one Offwidth. If we wake up on the 13th to a Conservative majority in terms of seats, then no matter what the percentage breakdowns are then all we'll hear is that the voters have given them a clear mandate etc. etc. Any vote that hasn't been for the winning candidate in a constituency will be considered not to exist, until it is useful for determining where to spend campaign resources in the next election.

[Will Hunt]

.....nearly all votes will count in our FPTP system.

This is only true of runner-up parties acquiring votes in sufficient quantities and in the necessary constituencies to present a credible threat to the Conservative or Labour party. So 500 or 1000 odd votes is not going to cut any ice in the majority of places.

[andy popp]

The Conservatives have held Hugo Swire's seat in Devon since 1835 ...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/02/14million-voters-live-areas-held-same-party-since-second-world-war