[petejh]

People can survive off a remarkably crap diet. Even that boy who only ate sausages, chips, Pringles and white bread for 10 years 'only' went blind.

JB was fully sighted last time I met him?

[andy_e]

To be fair, JB does have greens in his diet too. The green haribo.

[Fiend]

I'm not so sure Andy is a proper vegan. Too smart and good humoured, a luxurious beard and not enough sanctimonious preaching.

(On the subject of which does anyone remember the woman who ran Zeds On The Edge health food / vegetarian store in Sheffield?? Pale, wan, haggard and thoroughly miserable. I always thought she was a great advert for the omnivorous life-style)

Anyway. I was encouraged to add some more protein to my diet last year due to digestive issues and dietary restrictions, and I quite liked Pulsin Pea Protein powder, especially cooking with it. Hard fry a few eggs (or your prefered vegan egg-alternative of choice) with a large dusting of the powder, it formed a nice crust etc.

[sheavi]

I'm not so sure Andy is a proper vegan. Too smart and good humoured, a luxurious beard and not enough sanctimonious preaching.

(On the subject of which does anyone remember the woman who ran Zeds On The Edge health food / vegetarian store in Sheffield?? Pale, wan, haggard and thoroughly miserable. I always thought she was a great advert for the omnivorous life-style)

Anyway. I was encouraged to add some more protein to my diet last year due to digestive issues and dietary restrictions, and I quite liked Pulsin Pea Protein powder, especially cooking with it. Hard fry a few eggs (or your prefered vegan egg-alternative of choice) with a large dusting of the powder, it formed a nice crust etc.

I remember the lady from Zeds .  It's a slightly more cheerful place now but still has a slight air of melancholy .

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/animals-and-us/201812/the-baffling-connection-between-vegetarianism-and-depression

[Plattsy]

The Game Changers film is on Netflix today I’m sure it won’t be lacking in bias, but imagine it will be worth a watch!

Watched this last week. Certainly didn't lack bias.
They didn't speak to anyone who changed to a vegan diet and caused them a perceived issue for example.
And I wasn't sure about some of the claims.
What i did take from it was that I could eat more plant based protein and be none the worse for it.
Oat milk seems to work well so far.

[monkoffunk]

Yeah, I imagine you could make a similar film in reverse if you picked different athletes with different stories. On balance I imagine veganism done sensibly is fairly neutral with respect to athletic performance.

[teestub]

Yeah, I imagine you could make a similar film in reverse if you picked different athletes with different stories.

I guess you’d have a lot wider choice of athletes if you wanted to pick those with a non-restrictive diet!

[Robbo]

Sunwarrior make a good quality plant protein made from a blend of different sources to ensure all your bases are covered.

https://uk.iherb.com/pr/Sunwarrior-Warrior-Blend-Protein-Organic-Plant-Based-Chocolate-1-65-lb-750-g/76186?gclid=Cj0KCQiAl5zwBRCTARIsAIrukdMSH-tfZr-__zPEha78as3_8pJwUBIFymPPDu4-t0_wAO5I4S7F80UaAt8JEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Bioavailability of protein should be a big consideration when avoiding meat and fish. Just because a plant has Xg of protein in it, doesn't mean you will be able to extract that amount from it.

Eat more eggs and fish would be a better option than baked beans.

Everyoneis different, some people thrive on a vegan diet, many people don't. Genetics plays a big part, as does the state of your gut biome and how well you can digest the food you are eating

[Bradders]

The Game Changers film is on Netflix today I’m sure it won’t be lacking in bias, but imagine it will be worth a watch!

Watched this last week. Certainly didn't lack bias.
They didn't speak to anyone who changed to a vegan diet and caused them a perceived issue for example.
And I wasn't sure about some of the claims.
What i did take from it was that I could eat more plant based protein and be none the worse for it.
Oat milk seems to work well so far.

Anyone watching The Game Changers should also watch Dave MacLeod's fantastic riposte:



Takes it apart pretty comprehensively.

[Fiend]

There are some obvious fallacies in his environmental arguments, but other than that it is top bantz. Especially the strong as an ox bit.

[Robbo]

Anyone getting nutrition advice from Netflix needs a rethink.

[AJM]

Anyone watching The Game Changers should also watch Dave MacLeod's fantastic riposte:

Takes it apart pretty comprehensively.

The riposte to a riposte to a riposte of Game Changers seems to have become a productive internet cottage industry.

I watched it and enjoyed it but then I probably didn't take it too literally - the presenters "I thought you could only succeed on steak" perceived start point wasn't where I was coming from - and it's it's more exaggerated elements that are easiest to nit pick.

Having said that, I thought McLeods riposte was no better than a lot of the others - man on a carnivore diet (or whatever the right term for his diet is) disagreeing with a pro vegan film is hardly a surprise - and I did think it fell foul of some of the same things it was criticising - the use of anecdotes for vegan health issues (how's that better than cherry picking the athletes you talk to), a certain amount of what felt like loose use of science (the whole "the hunter should know that prey need predators to be healthy" - yeah, sure, but what relevance that has to the bulk of his audience who likely consume farmed meat I don't quite know, it's hardly a natural predator prey environment is it), and so on.

Which is a shame, because some of the points - the regular use of the western junk food diet as the baseline against which go measure improvements, and its relevance also in terms of whether a "vegan junk food diet" nets you any of the usually claimed health benefits, felt like very relevant points to bring out.

It seems like a very polarising topic that makes it difficult to argue pros and cons in a measured way.

[teestub]

Having said that, I thought McLeods riposte was no better than a lot of the others - man on a carnivore diet (or whatever the right term for his diet is)

Ketogenic

[AJM]

Having said that, I thought McLeods riposte was no better than a lot of the others - man on a carnivore diet (or whatever the right term for his diet is)

Ketogenic

My recollection (which I haven't rechecked) was that he mentioned a carnivore diet several times during his review, which is what led me to be unsure as to whether he was on a ketogenic or a carnivore diet or somewhere in between them.

Is he definitely keto rather than carnivore then?

[Bradders]

Is he definitely keto rather than carnivore then?

Yes definitely, perhaps not all the time but certainly seems to be his main diet.

Agree there were a few comments I took with a pinch of salt but it just laid bare how fundamentally flawed Game Changers is as a film. I thought the anecdotes about certain vegans just added colour to his central argument; as in, he showed clear examples of vegans, including those in the film, who actually weren't vegan at all, or hadn't been vegan for most of the time they'd been successful, or had been vegan but stopped due to health concerns. It was more about debunking the "veganism is the solution" argument than trying to prove that his approach is the way forward.

[AJM]

Yes definitely, perhaps not all the time but certainly seems to be his main diet.

Agree there were a few comments I took with a pinch of salt but it just laid bare how fundamentally flawed Game Changers is as a film. I thought the anecdotes about certain vegans just added colour to his central argument; as in, he showed clear examples of vegans, including those in the film, who actually weren't vegan at all, or hadn't been vegan for most of the time they'd been successful, or had been vegan but stopped due to health concerns. It was more about debunking the "veganism is the solution" argument than trying to prove that his approach is the way forward.

Interesting difference in view points. It probably is worth people watching both, because whilst I found the film moderately interesting (albeit none of that was really putting too much weight on the more easily corrected areas of it, I don’t think - I’m neither vegetarian nor vegan, but to the extent I’m interested in either it’s from an environmental/welfare perspective; I don’t think at my level I’m really in a place where the minutiae of dieting, bar an obvious focus on power:weight, is the limiting factor so diet as a performance driver is of relatively low relevance) and the riposte slightly frustrating (in that I definitely felt that valid and more tenuous critiques were being dumped together to try to add weight to a rebuttal that was inevitable even before he clicked play, and that therefore valid critiques I’d have liked to hear more about were slightly lost) you’ve obviously taken them very differently. I suppose I see them as two biased information sources playing off against each other, rather than a fundamentally flawed film being demolished by a clear rebuttal...

[tomtom]

It’s almost as if the Guardian takes its editorial steer from UKB!

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/dec/29/is-veganism-as-good-for-you-as-they-say?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[crzylgs]

On the subject of rational critique regarding the Netflix piece 'Game Changers' there was an episode of the Joe Rogan podcast recently that did a fairly good job. Episode #1389 for anyone who cares to listen. Here is the episode description:

Chris Kresser, M.S., L.Ac is a globally recognized leader in the fields of ancestral health, Paleo nutrition, and functional and integrative medicine. Link to notes from this podcast by Chris Kresser: http://kresser.co/gamechangers

I get that many people are not Joe Rogan fans but his guest Chris Kresser does most of the heavy lifting and is an interesting fella. Previously vegan, now omnivore, with as many qualifications as anyone in the diet/nutrition sphere. Very rational and analytical in his methodology.

My personal take: I'm slightly worried anyone would believe any argument put forward by the Game Changers gang when they are using Roman era Gladiators (I.e. Slaves/prisoners of war) being on a vegan diet (gruel) as an example of a well honed diet of a performance athlete. How about the more realistic interpretation that those poor souls, who were being sent to their deaths, were simply given the absolutely cheapest food available in order to keep them alive... Long enough to die for the amusement of their owners?

Also there was a rather strange 'Anthropologist' lady who was making some outrageous claims counter to the entire body of reasonably accepted archaeological and anthropological (my area of study...) knowledge. Things like we didn't evolve to eat meat because we don't have sharp teeth and claws... Did she skip the millions of years that eating meat/fat is thought to have provided enough energy for us to support larger brains and thus wield tools/weapons. Which in turn render the claws and sharp teeth redundant and ultimately lead us to being the absolute prime species who has conquered almost ever habitat one earth, plundered it for all its resources?

Anyway, was a good laugh. Shame they didn't produce an actual balanced documentary... But that wouldn't be nearly as polarising or get a fraction of the views/clicks/SM mentions or whatever other metric the data overloads value these days?

[andy popp]

Chris Kresser, M.S., L.Ac is a globally recognized leader in the fields of ancestral health, Paleo nutrition, and functional and integrative medicine.

He may or may not be right about the original documentary, but this sounds like a bunch of hokum. A quick google suggests the man has a business - the Kresser Academy, no less - to sell. Those exact words turn up in multiple search results suggesting that they're his own self-penned piece of puffery. As far as I can tell L.Ac means licensed acupuncturist. I presume from M.S he has a Masters. Hardly sounds like as many qualifications as anyone in the world of diet/nutrition. Conversely, I wonder why the "anthropologist lady" get apostrophised? Are her claims to that description suspect?

[AJM]

Chris Kresser, M.S., L.Ac is a globally recognized leader in the fields of ancestral health, Paleo nutrition, and functional and integrative medicine.

He may or may not be right about the original documentary, but this sounds like a bunch of hokum. A quick google suggests the man has a business - the Kresser Academy, no less - to sell. Those exact words turn up in multiple search results suggesting that they're his own self-penned piece of puffery. As far as I can tell L.Ac means licensed acupuncturist. I presume from M.S he has a Masters. Hardly sounds like as many qualifications as anyone in the world of diet/nutrition. Conversely, I wonder why the "anthropologist lady" get apostrophised? Are her claims to that description suspect?

Not that I've watched it - in going on the title and some commentary I've seen on it - but didn't Kressner and Wills do a subsequent head to head on Rogans show where Kressner basically got taken to bits?

The quote comes from a vegan website, but the Instagram comment appears to be there:

Sharing the episode on Instagram, Rogan wrote: "[James Wilks] one of the producers of The Game Changers came on to challenge some of the criticism that Chris Kresser presented about the movie, and to say he did well would be a tremendous understatement. James knocked it out of the park and defended himself and the film quite spectacularly. So much so that I'm actually considering taking the original breakdown of the film offline

[andy popp]

Just to be clear, despite being vegan I have zero interest in defending The Game Changer (which I haven't watched) or in rebutting the rebuttals (likewise haven't watched or read); I'm just not sure Kresser should be taken as a great authority.

[duncan]

There seem to me to be good moral and environmental arguments for veganism given the nature of most industrial farming. Perhaps not as much if you were a subsistence farmer or could be completely sure of your food sources but neither apply to most people reading this. I doubt if there are health benefits versus "Eat food, not too much, mostly plants." I am not a vegan.

I love bread and pastries and I’d have to be convinced there were spectacular gains to be made to adopt a Keto diet. I’m not. The ClimbSci podcast episode 9 ‘Ketogenic diets’ is worth a listen.

I’m inherently suspicious of nutritional research, so much of it is really low quality: using fasted individuals as your control group to ‘prove’ the benefits of your supplement for example. Much of it is funded by the body dysmorphia industry. I have tried upping my protein in the last 6 months, seen some possible benefits in recovery and another health issue, nothing spectacular so not sure at the moment.

Much of the appeal of ‘Paleo’ diets is a winning combination of nostalgia and natural is good. See also barefoot running, anthrax, and dentistry without anaesthetic. The premise seems to be we stopped evolving 15 000 years ago. Given the variety of diets worldwide (until recently) and the individual  degrees of adaptation to different foods (lactose and alcohol tolerances vary widely between individuals) this is clearly as bollocks as ‘functional and integrative medicine’. Aldi’s Paleo date and cashew bars are yummy though...

Ray Davies on Paleo diets:

[tomtom]

Great post Duncan that I largely agree with. Lots of good research indicating reasons for eating a MORE plant based diet.. but less for ONLY a plant based diet.

There is a lack of decent science on this (we rh guardian article I linked 4-5 posts back discusses) - and it’s so it’s to come up with meaningful comparisons - as we are all different, metabolise in a different way, have different tolerances and intolerances, all eat different amounts of various food groups - that’s all sourced in different places! Fuck!

[teestub]

Great post Duncan that I largely agree with. Lots of good research indicating reasons for eating a MORE plant based diet..

Citation needed 😄

[petejh]

Great post Duncan that I largely agree with. Lots of good research indicating reasons for eating a MORE plant based diet..

Citation needed 😄

That was: ‘TomTom, December 2019. UKB: diet training and injuries’.

To bang my old drum: there’s plenty of eveidence for the damaging effects to health of eating too much refined sugar and too much processed food. A vegan diet or a paleo diet will cut down consumption of refined sugar and processed food.
The health benefits of paleo or vegan seem, to me at least, unlikely to come from what you’re eating but more likely to come from what you’re not.
Compare the well-known health benefits when you stop or reduce consumption of alcohol... Nobody claims their amazing new ‘water and soft drink diet’ is making the difference. (Unless you’re a nutcase fruitarian.)