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Kilter Board (Read 7940 times)

petejh

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Kilter Board
October 13, 2019, 04:09:35 pm
Just noticed the Beacon are installing a Kilter Board, should be ready tomorrow. Anybody used one? Good/bad?

Mandatory horrible promo film.. hadn't realised there were so many professional climbers. Skip to 4.03 - 'the wolfpack ninjas'  ... :look:


abarro81

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#1 Re: Kilter Board
October 13, 2019, 04:26:04 pm
Think the Wolfpack ninjas thing relates to an American ninja warrior (i.e. the TV show) team or something along those lines?

Never used one so can't on the board..

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#2 Re: Kilter Board
October 13, 2019, 06:45:59 pm
It's the first in the UK Pete, so maybe ask a yank?

I'm quite psyched but haven't waded through all the info yet. You run it off your phone via a bluetooth app, again this week is learning week. We should have a tablet set up for those without posh phones.
I also think we've still got a week or so before its public ready

remus

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#3 Re: Kilter Board
October 13, 2019, 09:10:00 pm
From what I've heard it isn't that good, the major weak point being the app and a lack of surrounding community. Sounds like a bit of a chicken and egg problem...needs good problems to attract people, but people don't want to use it if there's not a good selection of problems.

The above seems fixable though, so maybe in a few years it'll be the dogs bollocks.

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#4 Re: Kilter Board
October 13, 2019, 09:18:27 pm
Iíve had maybe five sessions on them. My favourite board (apart from traditional woodie). So much better than a moon board. Holds so much nicer and the LED system is really good. Change in angle is handy and I havenít found an issue with number of problems or community. Very large number of problems and lots of Instagram videos linked into the app (I think this feature Moon has just copied into its app).

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#5 Re: Kilter Board
October 14, 2019, 05:08:37 pm
My issue is the pricing.  They're off the charts.  Means it'll be really rare for home users to be able to afford one. 

I've heard very good things about the holds though, and most seem to like that it goes super steep. 

petejh

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#6 Re: Kilter Board
December 05, 2019, 11:04:59 am
So after a long delay the Beacon finally had their kilter holds delivered. Had my first sesh on the board last. Thoughts:

Good points
The holds are brilliant. Texture is perfect, interesting shapes, joint-friendly, the sizes of hold are perfect for the 45 angle the Beacon have chosen to go with (it's not an adjustable set-up). Maybe a lack of pure boning holds like the Moonboard yellows but at 45 angle they aren't required.
Size of board is massive! 12'x12' - loads of room for creative problem-setting and you can make 2-3 big moves and still have room to spare. The moonboard feels cramped in comparison.
The size means it will also be a brilliant tool for training savage short PE - I reckon if you locked Shark in a room for a month with a bag of creatine and a Kitler board he'd emerge to crush the Oak with plenty of energy to spare to tow up a tight rope.
Variability of setting footholds works really well - you can set screw-ons only / feet follow hands / mixture - makes it easier to set interesting cool problems.
Quickly creating new problems is simple and quick with the app, and having loads of hold options for feet means you can easily tweak the difficulty up or down.
The lighting system is perfect - easy to see from below and above.
The 45 angle works well for a range of hold sizes from jug to small. Wouldn't want to go steeper.
It looks plush! Feels like you're using a deluxe expensive piece of equipment.
App is very good, bug-free from what I could tell, easy to use. Problems in the app have a beta symbol next to them where if you want you can watch an embedded vid of the problem.
Loads of problems in the app, you won't run out.
Grades of the probs I tried (up to low 7s) seemed fair, no silly 'warmup 6s' that are 7b but no doubt they exist.
Large grade range - the warmup 6s are just as fun as the harder problems.

Bad points
It's expensive..but not my problem.
that's it!


Well impressed. I'm a fan of the moonboard and I'm a little sad to say the Kilter is just miles better, the next step. The beacon finally, for the first time in their history, has a good board and decent training room :) Think I'll be purchasing a subscription for winter.. Now all they need to do for another first time in their history is to turn on the hot water for paying customers to use.. stingebags.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 11:10:06 am by petejh »

Paul B

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#7 Re: Kilter Board
December 05, 2019, 01:02:26 pm
Now all they need to do for another first time in their history is to turn on the hot water for paying customers to use.. stingebags.

Don't building regs require them to provide hot water (for the basins near to or adjacent to their loos)?

petejh

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#8 Re: Kilter Board
December 05, 2019, 01:23:25 pm
I don't know. I know that construction industry regulations certainly require provision of hot water in welfare facilities on construction sites.
During the time I've been going to the Beacon, from the 90s at their old premises to now at their current one, I can't remember the hot water taps in the men's toilets ever working. No water comes out. I've always thought it's a stingy attitude towards people who are paying ten quid to use your otherwise pretty good facility.

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#9 Re: Kilter Board
December 06, 2019, 04:58:45 pm
Had my eye on the Kilter Board for a while, looks incredibly well done! Does anyone know how much it actually is?!

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#10 Re: Kilter Board
December 06, 2019, 05:45:55 pm
https://rockcity.co.uk/kilter-board-holds-and-leds/

11,760 Inc vat for the holds + LEDs.

Or about 4x a moonboard set.

petejh

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#11 Re: Kilter Board
December 06, 2019, 07:06:24 pm
Crazy  :blink:  And that's just for the holds and LEDs.. Need to add on 12x12 of panels, plus T-nuts and bolts. Plus the not inconsiderable time to drill and fix all those T-nuts and possibly paint the panels.

The Moonboard price includes the panels, which come painted, pre-drilled and T-nutted, plus bolts.

Duma

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#12 Re: Kilter Board
December 06, 2019, 09:00:06 pm
That's mental!

Think they don't really fulfil the same function - a MB is a feasible option for individuals and smaller walls, this just isn't - for both cost and size constraints. They do look well plush though. Really wish the MB just had a better thought out set of holds - all the rest is just fluff really, now its got screw on feet etc.

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#13 Re: Kilter Board
December 06, 2019, 09:06:12 pm
Donít underestimate how much mark up RockCity have on that... :D

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#14 Re: Kilter Board
December 06, 2019, 09:22:08 pm
Crazy  :blink:  And that's just for the holds and LEDs.. Need to add on 12x12 of panels, plus T-nuts and bolts. Plus the not inconsiderable time to drill and fix all those T-nuts and possibly paint the panels.

The Moonboard price includes the panels, which come painted, pre-drilled and T-nutted, plus bolts.

Plus, for the money you could get two Moonboards, a 20 and a 40; giving you a much more versatile set up.

Or, like I did, get a Moonboard (40) and a Lattice board (30), then add wooden holds to the Lattice.

In fact, all the wood and holds, in my main bouldering room...

And you still need matting. I think youíre looking at 5-6K there...
(Our main room cost ~26K for matting and that was Semi ďhome madeĒ rather than branded).

Nah.

Deffo rather turn on the water heaters.

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#15 Re: Kilter Board
December 06, 2019, 10:22:42 pm
Crazy  :blink:  And that's just for the holds and LEDs.. Need to add on 12x12 of panels, plus T-nuts and bolts. Plus the not inconsiderable time to drill and fix all those T-nuts and possibly paint the panels.

The Moonboard price includes the panels, which come painted, pre-drilled and T-nutted, plus bolts.

Plus, for the money you could get two Moonboards, a 20 and a 40; giving you a much more versatile set up.

Or, like I did, get a Moonboard (40) and a Lattice board (30), then add wooden holds to the Lattice.
I'd probably disagree and say one of the big kilter boards that Pete mentioned would be more versatile if you get the changing angle one (10 - 70 deg possible I think).

IMO ranking of boards I like:
Old school woodie with 60-40 ratio wood to resin holds (45 or 50 deg)
Variable angle Kilter Board
Variable angle Tension Board
Moon Board
Resin-only board...

Oldmanmatt

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#16 Re: Kilter Board
December 06, 2019, 10:25:05 pm
Crazy  :blink:  And that's just for the holds and LEDs.. Need to add on 12x12 of panels, plus T-nuts and bolts. Plus the not inconsiderable time to drill and fix all those T-nuts and possibly paint the panels.

The Moonboard price includes the panels, which come painted, pre-drilled and T-nutted, plus bolts.

Plus, for the money you could get two Moonboards, a 20 and a 40; giving you a much more versatile set up.

Or, like I did, get a Moonboard (40) and a Lattice board (30), then add wooden holds to the Lattice.
I'd probably disagree and say one of the big kilter boards that Pete mentioned would be more versatile if you get the changing angle one (10 - 70 deg possible I think).

IMO ranking of boards I like:
Old school woodie with 60-40 ratio wood to resin holds (45 or 50 deg)
Variable angle Kilter Board
Variable angle Tension Board
Moon Board
Resin-only board...

Yes,
However, thatís even more pricey (£18K inc VAT).
AKA 4x Moonboards 40,30,20 and 10⁰ and a Lattice board and almost all the required matting.

So, to edit again...
Thatís £38160 (inc VAT).

The Bunker (in itís most basic iteration, at opening) with 126m≤ matting, 250m≤ bouldering wall, a fully furnished cafe, fully equipped training room (12m x 7m), ~2000 shiny new Core holds and so on; cost ~£56K including hiring a pro to do the heavy carpentry (Somebodyís fool, really good, and knocked off Cider soak in a couple after work sessions. Hey Simon).
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 10:57:01 pm by Oldmanmatt »

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#17 Re: Kilter Board
December 06, 2019, 10:36:16 pm
The amount of Moonboards one has at varying angles does not make their choice of holds any better!

I understand the attraction of the Moonboard being first on the market and the price point, but the Kilter board seems like an all round better product.

What does the cost difference equate to for a wall, 5k is what 500-600 entry costs, so a few days for one of the big walls.

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#18 Re: Kilter Board
December 06, 2019, 10:39:49 pm
My issue is the pricing.  They're off the charts.  Means it'll be really rare for home users to be able to afford one. 

I've heard very good things about the holds though, and most seem to like that it goes super steep.

Yup - As I said earlier.  It's just off the table for home users. 

Oldmanmatt

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#19 Re: Kilter Board
December 06, 2019, 10:59:15 pm
The amount of Moonboards one has at varying angles does not make their choice of holds any better!

I understand the attraction of the Moonboard being first on the market and the price point, but the Kilter board seems like an all round better product.

What does the cost difference equate to for a wall, 5k is what 500-600 entry costs, so a few days for one of the big walls.

Thatís just the holds!
The complete set up is £38K

Yossarian

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#20 Re: Kilter Board
December 06, 2019, 11:07:54 pm
A Lattice board is £2k and has zero fun problems. On that basis a massive multi-angle Kilter board looks like a bargain...

petejh

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#21 Re: Kilter Board
December 06, 2019, 11:08:21 pm
I think most walls would choose to do what the Beacon have, which is to just buy the kilter holds and LEDs and put them on an own-build fixed angle board rather than blowing the budget on purchasing the kilter adjustable board. The 45 angle feels spot on to me. Works out as £10,000 plus panelling, matting and build cost this way.

edit: surely you could build a lattice board for a couple of hundred quid by cnc'ing some timber banisters and screwing them on in a criss-cross pattern..

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#22 Re: Kilter Board
December 06, 2019, 11:48:35 pm
I think most walls would choose to do what the Beacon have, which is to just buy the kilter holds and LEDs and put them on an own-build fixed angle board rather than blowing the budget on purchasing the kilter adjustable board. The 45 angle feels spot on to me. Works out as £10,000 plus panelling, matting and build cost this way.

edit: surely you could build a lattice board for a couple of hundred quid by cnc'ing some timber banisters and screwing them on in a criss-cross pattern..

Shhhh!

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#23 Re: Kilter Board
December 09, 2019, 09:07:45 am
I'm sure given the hundreds of designs there out there, no need for the cnc-ing

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#24 Re: Kilter Board
December 09, 2019, 10:21:46 am
Got the honor of jumping on the brand new, crispy kilter board just as beacon pulled the ropes back.

My thoughts:
- Holds are far nicer than MB, and with great texture. They are well rounded in places you want them to be and dont have that horrible habit of being sharp in unexpected places the MB has.
- BIG
- very easy to see where you are going because of the lighting system, this was a superb idea.
- Suffers from MB syndrome, in that a lot of the holds are, realistically, too big and good. What this meant is that a lot of the problems requires enormous moves between good holds. Now this is not necessarily a problem at all if you like that, but for me it transfers less well to outdoor (particularly NW) bouldering than less enormous moves between worse holds. I also suspect that it will result in the same madness that I have seen in the MB, where for every decent problem there are 2 or 3 with ridiculous contrived movements, usually requiring a campus/rose-move/awkward pogo shoulder dyno with no feet.
- As a counterpoint to the above, apparently there is a 'harder' hold set to go with the board. This may alleviate the aforementioned problems, though I suspect it will be prohibitively difficult for most people and will never be seen. The current set is probably a better choice for maximum usability.

I really enjoyed my 20 minute play on it, but I don't train on a 45 ever (don't have on at my local) so the novelty value was doubly high.

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#25 Re: Kilter Board
December 09, 2019, 10:57:43 am
I think judging, or making comparisons relative to the MB is perhaps a little unfair and the concept should get a bit more recognition for what it was/is. When the MB appeared at the School my phone was one of those orange/white Sony Ericsson things and the Works had declared there was no need for a training board beyond the now circuit board!

At that time it'd have been hard to imagine being able to walk into your local wall and literally light up 100s of problems set by people from other countries/continents.

AMorris

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#26 Re: Kilter Board
December 09, 2019, 11:03:56 am
I think judging, or making comparisons relative to the MB is perhaps a little unfair and the concept should get a bit more recognition for what it was/is. When the MB appeared at the School my phone was one of those orange/white Sony Ericsson things and the Works had declared there was no need for a training board beyond the now circuit board!

At that time it'd have been hard to imagine being able to walk into your local wall and literally light up 100s of problems set by people from other countries/continents.

I don't think it's particularly unfair, or unreasonable. They are both light up training boards with almost identical user systems. It seems only logical to compare it to other boards of this style, of which (as you pointed out) the MB was the first, and therefore the most obvious choice. Furthermore, most people will not have tried the kilter boards (hence the thread) but will certainly have tried a MB. With this in mind it is the obvious choice for reference that most people will find helpful.

The MB is a great tool and a superb idea, but not without it's faults and definitely not above criticism.

Paul B

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#27 Re: Kilter Board
December 09, 2019, 11:12:04 am
The MB is a great tool and a superb idea, but not without it's faults and definitely not above criticism.

Indeed. Ben even popped up here a few years ago to disagree with one of my comments on the holds (I think a few of the yellow set are grim and still do). You're just comparing something ~10 years old, conceived in a time when training wasn't as 'mainstream', technology (specifically mobile phones) isn't what it now is, and I think that's worth remembering.

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#28 Re: Kilter Board
December 09, 2019, 11:50:57 am
The MB is a great tool and a superb idea, but not without it's faults and definitely not above criticism.

Indeed. Ben even popped up here a few years ago to disagree with one of my comments on the holds (I think a few of the yellow set are grim and still do). You're just comparing something ~10 years old, conceived in a time when training wasn't as 'mainstream', technology (specifically mobile phones) isn't what it now is, and I think that's worth remembering.

I think that is a valid point. You are right that it is worth remembering that MB is old tech now. But I feel the comparison is justified, since the MB is still considered the industry standard for this kind of board. My criticisms of the MB are not meant to dismiss it's value as a concept or the impact it seems to have had on modern climbing. I am just not a fan of (most of) the holds on it!

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#29 Re: Kilter Board
December 09, 2019, 03:02:43 pm

Indeed. Ben even popped up here a few years ago to disagree with one of my comments on the holds (I think a few of the yellow set are grim and still do). You're just comparing something ~10 years old, conceived in a time when training wasn't as 'mainstream', technology (specifically mobile phones) isn't what it now is, and I think that's worth remembering.

10 years is also a lot of time to make improvements, especially given Moon had a big head start in terms of being the first to market. Yet a lot of problems from the original setup are still present (vicious holds, funny app etc.)

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#30 Re: Kilter Board
December 09, 2019, 03:33:27 pm
I liked the first set of moon board holds. The white ones. Am I really the only one?

Paul B

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#31 Re: Kilter Board
December 09, 2019, 04:37:17 pm
10 years is also a lot of time to make improvements, especially given Moon had a big head start in terms of being the first to market. Yet a lot of problems from the original setup are still present (vicious holds, funny app etc.)

True but you've got to have a certain commitment to people that have heavily invested into your system. Imagine now if you/Lattice suddenly stopped supporting L 1.0 and based all your ongoing training around another hold/rail (L 2.0). You'd p*ss a lot of people off.

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#32 Re: Kilter Board
December 09, 2019, 04:42:04 pm
In the Moon example they have released 2 more sets of holds recently which (as I understand) have also been poorly received.

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#33 Re: Kilter Board
December 09, 2019, 04:56:53 pm
I liked the first set of moon board holds. The white ones. Am I really the only one?

Nope. I like the white set of holds, I've got some of them on my board.

However, I don't think they particularly suit a foot-following-hands style board, as AMorris said earlier: many of them are miles too good/big imo.

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#34 Re: Kilter Board
December 09, 2019, 05:08:19 pm
The concept of the moonboard was great as the first standardized board that was the same anywhere, with light up holds and an app for uploading and logging climbs. The concept is what made all of the other standardized boards possible.

But the implementation of the concept is just awful. The resin holds are so tough on the skin and tweaky on the tendons due to the lack of radius. The plywood holds (haven't tried the new set) are the most conditions dependent holds I have ever used; if its at all warm or humid, you dry fire off them, if you don't brush them after every single attempt, they become sooo greasy. Every other wooden hold maker in the country makes holds that are much better to train on.

The LEDs become impossible to see from above, meaning you have to memorize the holds anyway, so you might as well not bother paying for the lights and the user interface on the app is really awkward.

It's a shame, I want to like the moonboard. The style of big moves between decent holds is a weakness of mine that I am trying to improve. But when I want to work on that weakness, I'm always going to struggle to choose the moonboard over the woody next to it that isn't going to trash my skin for the weekend and is less likely to injure me.

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#35 Re: Kilter Board
December 09, 2019, 05:24:53 pm
We're a fussy lot.. I find the local setup at BuK a bit  :devangel:

It looks great, and I like the holds I use on there but find the steeper one effectively has no feet when you're avoiding the biggest holds (all sidepulls etc. have their edges meticulously removed) and the RH board, like all BM boards feels like playing the tendon lottery (to me at least; uncontrolled 'slips' are common).

/tangent

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#36 Re: Kilter Board
December 09, 2019, 06:51:03 pm
10 years is also a lot of time to make improvements, especially given Moon had a big head start in terms of being the first to market. Yet a lot of problems from the original setup are still present (vicious holds, funny app etc.)

True but you've got to have a certain commitment to people that have heavily invested into your system. Imagine now if you/Lattice suddenly stopped supporting L 1.0 and based all your ongoing training around another hold/rail (L 2.0). You'd p*ss a lot of people off.

Sorry, I think I came across as having a harsher position than I actually do. As you say there's a balance to be struck and you definitely can't just throw away the existing holds/problems/setup and start from scratch as you'l piss of everyone whos's already bought the holds.

I think what is a little frustrating is that the new hold sets don't seem to have addressed the issues with the original holds. I had a session on the moonboard at the sheffield depot where I trashed my skin within 15 problems. Maybe in a few years time the holds will have softened a bit, but the 50 board 10ft away is plastered in excellent hardwood holds that you can climb on all day and night without ruining your skin. When the market is chock full of excellent holds it's hard to understand why the moonboard has so few decent holds after being on the market for so long.

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#37 Re: Kilter Board
December 09, 2019, 09:50:31 pm
This ^

I'm a fan of the Moonboard and unashamed to admit that Moon is one of my few heroes in climbing.. Actually felt a bit of 'brand loyalty' toward the MB! I accepted the MB's weaknesses (tweaky holds) because its strengths were it was a novel concept which really opened up training on a steep board to people who didn't want to or couldn't build a home woodie.

Now there's a better light-up board, with better holds, better lighting system, a larger area, better foothold layout which really opens up the potential for different styles of problem, better app, etc. etc. It's classic market evolution. If you put a Kilter and a Moonboard side-by-side in a climbing wall then nearly everyone would have a better session on the Kilter Board. That isn't unfair criticism of the Moonboard that's just the truth.

I hope Moon one day bring out holds for the MB which are of the standard of the Kilter holds, because it would then be a good competitor to the Kilter at a lower price.     

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#38 Re: Kilter Board
December 11, 2019, 07:42:11 pm
I really enjoyed my 20 minute play on it ...

+1

Just tried out the board installed at the gym here in Squamish, with help from GenZ son #1 who worked the app for me. The gym has had some issues with the angle-change mechanism so it is currently fixed at 40 degree, but that seemed the right angle anyway. Would be a great toy to have at home ...

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#39 Re: Kilter Board
December 11, 2019, 09:50:08 pm
This ^

I'm a fan of the Moonboard and unashamed to admit that Moon is one of my few heroes in climbing..

A propos this, a tale ... Unrelated to the KB, although it sounds ace, I'll be interested to have a play on that sometime.

1988ish late one afternoon in Buoux I watched Ben fall off the very last move of La Secte  ie one move off doing La Rage, one of the few 8b+ around at that time. It was his 3rd go or something that day, so I headed off to hitch back to Apt.

When I got back at 6.30ish, Ben, having transport, was already there at the campsite.

He'd done the route.

SA Chris

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#40 Re: Kilter Board
December 12, 2019, 08:45:48 am
Did he have video evidence though ;)

Coops_13

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#41 Re: Kilter Board
January 08, 2020, 04:08:57 pm


This gives a pretty good view of what the board is like and the problems, for those who haven't been near one. Maybe watch on mute...

Doylo

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#42 Re: Kilter Board
January 09, 2020, 06:44:51 pm
Is it me or are the holds very samey? Doesnít look like much variety , all similarly sized white pinchy things and flatties.

petejh

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#43 Re: Kilter Board
January 09, 2020, 08:43:56 pm
It's you. The holds are varied. Has everything from bony crimps to jugs; plenty of sidepulls, undercuts, slopers and pinches. You need to try it out at the beacon.

Doylo

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#44 Re: Kilter Board
January 09, 2020, 08:51:32 pm
Iím too grumpy to go to a climbing wall  ;)

James Malloch

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#45 Re: Kilter Board
February 04, 2020, 02:31:21 pm
Had a session on the Board at Awesome Walls Sheffield last night. They have the adjustable 12x12 version.

Itís a really great board! Nice holds, easy to climb on (i.e. the lights are clear), loads of problems. The only thing I didnít like was it seemed like a pain to change between problems if thereís a few of you. It probably would work okay with multiple phones, but if you just have one then we needed to remember problem names to re-search after changing problems.

SamT

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#46 Re: Kilter Board
May 04, 2020, 01:51:44 pm
Might be old news to most on here, but happened across this.

'Interesting' back story I was un-aware of..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50270731

SA Chris

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#47 Re: Kilter Board
May 04, 2020, 02:00:25 pm
Very. Good read

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#48 Re: Kilter Board
June 15, 2020, 04:52:22 pm
We just got a new 12í12 Kilter board in our local gym south of Munich and I second all of the positive aspects mentioned above:
ē   Great variety of holds, both shapes and orientation
ē   Very ergonomic and nice to touch. No nasty or painful ones discovered (yet)
ē   App is very intuitive to use and offers good filtering criteria; also easy to define and upload own problems
ē   Works easily with multiple phones in parallel, so multiple climbers / groups of varying ability can have sessions together
ē   Angle change is not open to the public user here, as staff donít want everybody to mess with it, so canít comment on this, but usually the angle is set to 30į or 45į and especially the latter one offers a perfect combination of demanding body tension and still be wall-ish (not too roof-ish)
ē   Broad variety of problems offered Ė all styles, for all strengths and weaknesses!
ē   Have not figured out how the user feedback re difficulty is being taken into account (majority vote?), there are some inconsistencies (e.g. problem having easier grades at steeper angles) and there are also the obligatory sandbag boulders around, but anyway, but these are all minor issues.
ē   Can understand the price being an issue for home use, but for a commercial gym, I think that set-up caters the biggest possible variety for climbers of all levels

James Malloch

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#49 Re: Kilter Board
June 15, 2020, 07:59:41 pm
For anyone around Leeds, looks like City Bloc are getting a kilter board installed based on some instagram posts

Anti

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#50 Re: Kilter Board
June 16, 2020, 09:34:50 am
Might be old news to most on here, but happened across this.

'Interesting' back story I was un-aware of..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50270731

This is also worth a watch, if you're into the story of Kilter.


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#51 Re: Kilter Board
June 25, 2020, 08:35:37 pm
Nice little interview that I was delighted to happen across on a very hot and sweaty drive today.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w3cszd9y

 

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