UKBouldering.com

Climate Change (Read 59742 times)

Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 7097
  • Karma: +368/-17
  • Largely broken. Obsolete spares and scrap only.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
#150 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 11:36:56 am
If the source of the energy in the charging coil is renewable then isn't that getting near a cheaty definition of 'free energy'?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point... but no. Moving energy from EM radiation or wind form into electrical form is just moving energy around, not making free energy.

Yeah you’re misunderstanding my point but I didn’t word it well. I realise you can’t ‘make’ or destroy energy. It was more a figure of speech for getting energy from carbon-free processes and using it for both transporting people (the moving parts in a power generator) and energy generation.


Matt - so if inertia from spinning rotors is a way that power stations partly mitigate the inefficiency eddy currents, could you find something large and heavy that moves at a relatively constant speed, and use it for power generation? Say a large cargo ship or passenger ferry. Coming into dock use electromagnetic rails either side of it and eddy current to decelerate, instead of liquid fuel.
Also wonder why we haven’t got solar-powered ships - large surface area and plenty of capacity for massive heavy batteries?

Actually, most of the above is in use or development.

Oddly enough, these things tend to be developed first in the yachting industry, then the military, and only then begin to supplant accepted tech in large scale (even steam power, was first a rich mans toy, before the military advantage of being able to sail directly into/completely without the wind was recognised, only later were the  commercial advantages recognised as military use increased production and reduced costs).

Iirc, eddy current brakes have been used in heavy goods transport and trains for donkeys years. Shaft generators and brakes long used on ships, many of which are propelled electrically now. Quite a few with fuel cell tech as prime mover.

Copper is still too expensive and prone to  corrosion for many of the applications you mention.

https://futurism.com/new-ship-rigid-solar-sails-harnesses-power-sun-wind-same-time

Oh yeah,
Sorry, the first point, that’s a fly wheel.
Generally speaking, the energy cost of accelerating the wheel, and the subsequent frictional loses, make them non-viable/economic in the sense you describe. Frictionless bearings might be the answer, but as yet not available iirc.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 11:49:34 am by Oldmanmatt »

seankenny

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1007
  • Karma: +114/-11
#151 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 11:37:48 am
I reckon you could just give every motorist in UK a Tesla for less than it would cost to undertake some version of the proposed engineering nightmare and would smash it in efficiency too (and actually work).

:D And lots of folk would sell their Tesla and go back to their 15 year old cars :)

Why would I buy the Tesla you want to sell when I already have a brand new one that the government have just given me?

teestub

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2574
  • Karma: +166/-4
  • Cyber Wanker
#152 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 11:43:14 am


You know more people die in road accidents every year? Every year.

You know how many more die from air pollution, every year?


Our current habits are far more lethal! Not to mention, way more expensive. Add to that, the vast difference between fission reactors and nuclear batteries, in terms of risk etc. Then look at the likelihood of repetition...

Nope, our fear of the bogie man called radiation blinds us to the possibilities.

Which renewable tech does not require “extractive” industry for it’s source? Do wind turbines now grow fully functional from GMO pumpkin  plants? I must have missed the fields of organic Stainless Steel crops and Copper vineyards.
Probably hidden by Green houses where they grow the Lithium...


Sorry, snarky I know. But everybody forgets these thing are only “relatively” green.

People are going to start driving more safely because they have nuclear cars?

How much radioisotope would you need for a fissionable mass and how many car batteries would that be. How about for a dirty bomb?

Agreed all things are relatively green, and mining radioisotopes is very far down the list of relatively green!

abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4287
  • Karma: +341/-25
#153 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 11:45:36 am
Yeah you’re misunderstanding my point but I didn’t word it well. I realise you can’t ‘make’ or destroy energy. It was more a figure of speech for getting energy from carbon-free processes and using it for both transporting people and energy generation - by turning people travelling into the moving parts of a generator.

I don' really understand your idea about using it "for both transporting people and energy generation" - if we use a wind farm or solar farm, we're generating electrical energy... which we then use for whatever we want (light, running heat pumps, charging our EV etc.) If we then go drive our EV, we can recover some energy using regenerative breaking, but only when we're breaking... and not that much, so it makes sense just to run it back into the battery like Steve said.
When we're doing the bulk of using the energy is when we're not breaking, at which point I don't see how we can "generate" energy for the grid - you'd run your battery harder to inefficiently pump energy back into the grid you just took it out of. Perhaps I still don't quite understand what you're getting at. Is your point just about regen breaking?

Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 7097
  • Karma: +368/-17
  • Largely broken. Obsolete spares and scrap only.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
#154 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 11:52:44 am


You know more people die in road accidents every year? Every year.

You know how many more die from air pollution, every year?


Our current habits are far more lethal! Not to mention, way more expensive. Add to that, the vast difference between fission reactors and nuclear batteries, in terms of risk etc. Then look at the likelihood of repetition...

Nope, our fear of the bogie man called radiation blinds us to the possibilities.

Which renewable tech does not require “extractive” industry for it’s source? Do wind turbines now grow fully functional from GMO pumpkin  plants? I must have missed the fields of organic Stainless Steel crops and Copper vineyards.
Probably hidden by Green houses where they grow the Lithium...


Sorry, snarky I know. But everybody forgets these thing are only “relatively” green.

People are going to start driving more safely because they have nuclear cars?

How much radioisotope would you need for a fissionable mass and how many car batteries would that be. How about for a dirty bomb?

Agreed all things are relatively green, and mining radioisotopes is very far down the list of relatively green!

Ummmm...
Beta radiation is pretty safe. Generally speaking, a thick sheet of card would stop the electrons released (yes, electrons). No fission occurs, only normal decay. Tritium was what made watch faces glow.
We’re not talking about Uranium here.
This is  exactly the misconception I’m referring to.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betavoltaic_device

Edit:

Hang on. I realise what the underlying misconception is here.
It’s our current power distribution system.
Everything from centralised storage/generation. National Grid, Domestic Gas etc.

The point of the nuclear battery, is autonomy.

No grid required.

Also, the power required to move a car around? Ooph!

Comparatively, running your home is a doodle.

No grid.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 12:10:33 pm by Oldmanmatt »

dunnyg

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1521
  • Karma: +91/-7
#155 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 12:04:05 pm
If you aerosolised a load of tritium (dirty bomb style), and then the population of a city huffed it in, does everyone get lung cancer? I guess you need significantly more tritium to make a beta-voltaic cell in a car than you do do make your watch glow? The difference between using such technology in the Navy and on the street is the people who have access to it.


Ru

Offline
  • *****
  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1972
  • Karma: +120/-0
#156 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 12:13:42 pm
I think - one of the main issues with this is how our grid is structured...

There are snags certainly, but a friend in the industry says it is being worked on and can work in theory.

Re: aerosolised tritium - it's hydrogen, it would float off.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 02:33:15 pm by Ru »

Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 7097
  • Karma: +368/-17
  • Largely broken. Obsolete spares and scrap only.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
#157 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 12:21:12 pm
If you aerosolised a load of tritium (dirty bomb style), and then the population of a city huffed it in, does everyone get lung cancer? I guess you need significantly more tritium to make a beta-voltaic cell in a car than you do do make your watch glow? The difference between using such technology in the Navy and on the street is the people who have access to it.

If you aerosolised Lithium in a dirty bomb style....


Nope.

We use lethal elements and compounds daily. We do so by observing suitable precautions.

This is just an unjustifiable fear of the term “radiation”. Take a flight, go sun bathing, live on Dartmoor. Similar risk levels.

dunnyg

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1521
  • Karma: +91/-7
#158 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 12:30:01 pm
Wouldn't dare live on dartmoor. The ponies just have that look about them...

Fair enough, the next question is how do you deal with public perception of radioactivity? It might not be a physical problem but it is still a hurdle to a possibly more green technology.
Sorry for all the questions but it is interesting stuff that I know relatively little about!

Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 7097
  • Karma: +368/-17
  • Largely broken. Obsolete spares and scrap only.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
#159 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 12:42:30 pm
Wouldn't dare live on dartmoor. The ponies just have that look about them...

Fair enough, the next question is how do you deal with public perception of radioactivity? It might not be a physical problem but it is still a hurdle to a possibly more green technology.
Sorry for all the questions but it is interesting stuff that I know relatively little about!

Mainly, to achieve this, you must never have:

A: Nuclear weapons (that’s how we were all introduced to the radiation party).
B: A Three mile island incident, a Chernobyl incident or a Fukashima.
C: A Tabloid press.
D: An Abysmal approach to science education, that kills interest in the magic by forcing young minds to memorise tedious equations, whilst building a “foundation” of scientific understanding, that is so divorced from day to day activity, that it will almost never actually be built on...

dunnyg

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1521
  • Karma: +91/-7
#160 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 12:49:26 pm
Sounds like a dead end then...

Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 7097
  • Karma: +368/-17
  • Largely broken. Obsolete spares and scrap only.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
#161 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 12:50:12 pm
Aye.

Our own worst enemy, has ever been ourselves.

teestub

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2574
  • Karma: +166/-4
  • Cyber Wanker
#162 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 01:11:23 pm
Tritium eh, not exactly lying around in glowing rocks to be mined? So what difficult And expensive to produce by the sound of it?

Also I can’t think of anything bad anyone has ever done with a mass of tritium. Oh wait, there was that one time in Japan...

Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 7097
  • Karma: +368/-17
  • Largely broken. Obsolete spares and scrap only.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
#163 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 01:27:50 pm
Tritium eh, not exactly lying around in glowing rocks to be mined? So what difficult And expensive to produce by the sound of it?

Also I can’t think of anything bad anyone has ever done with a mass of tritium. Oh wait, there was that one time in Japan...

You didn’t read the NS article, did you?
The Tritium cells are 1970’s tech.

tomtom

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 20282
  • Karma: +641/-11
#164 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 01:28:34 pm
So - how come, after 70 years and $trillion+ of subsidy* worldwide over this time, Nuclear power is still so amazingly expensive? (and thats not including the ongoing cost of decomissionining the existing plants and development facilities)

Whilst the cost per kw/h of the next Hinkley is still - er 3 times that of offshore wind?

*lets include all that bomb making stuff in there too...

tomtom

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 20282
  • Karma: +641/-11
#165 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 01:34:45 pm
Anyway - wheres Stone when he's needed? I've had plenty of discussion with him at the crag about nuclear power and batteries.. :)

teestub

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2574
  • Karma: +166/-4
  • Cyber Wanker
#166 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 01:39:51 pm

You didn’t read the NS article, did you?
The Tritium cells are 1970’s tech.

Which bit, none of it talks about cost or scalability but it does talk about stacks of carbon nanotubes filled with gold and lithium which sounds dead cheap to me.

Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 7097
  • Karma: +368/-17
  • Largely broken. Obsolete spares and scrap only.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
#167 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 01:42:25 pm
So - how come, after 70 years and $trillion+ of subsidy* worldwide over this time, Nuclear power is still so amazingly expensive? (and thats not including the ongoing cost of decomissionining the existing plants and development facilities)

Whilst the cost per kw/h of the next Hinkley is still - er 3 times that of offshore wind?

*lets include all that bomb making stuff in there too...

Tom, you are talking about fission and reactors, I’m talking about batteries and converting radioactive decay directly into electricity.
You are simply compounding the misinformation.

No fission is involved.

No Gamma radiation required.

Relatively safe materials, already in common usage, would suffice.
The combination of nuclear batteries and Graphene batteries (really, capacitors) are extremely exciting!

Graphene has now been produced (quite literally) on the back of a CD, using a modified CD recorder, which was then used to “carve” capacitive structures onto/into the Graphene layer.
The combination of the nuclear battery’s stead, slow, output; with a capacitor’s almost instant full charge absorption/discharge potential, have massive implications for autonomous vehicles, for instance.
Imagine a vehicle, with a Graphene “battery”, coated across  the  inside of it’s body work, a few layers (still microns) thick and a small nuclear battery, constantly trickle charging it. A battery that doesn’t need to be changed for a decade or more and decays to inert.

Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 7097
  • Karma: +368/-17
  • Largely broken. Obsolete spares and scrap only.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
#168 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 01:46:56 pm
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/ucla-researchers-develop-new-technique-243553

We have a long way to go, but it will arrive.

Of course, the rabbit hole might branch off unexpectedly in a different direction. But, these were the hot topics when I was designing high efficiency motors, a few years ago. Mostly, I was working on replacing hydraulic systems for maritime applications, such as fin stabilisers and thrusters. But, we were moving into propulsion, when my life flipped.
Our focus then was on fuel cell tech. Replacing diesel units with cells. However, I was still in regular conversation with my erstwhile colleagues when the Graphene news broke and their excitement was palpable. Fuel cells and their need for fuel storage, were not “enough” hence the battery guys were constantly harping on about Betavoltaics and some sort of charge storage.
CMC was a Mitsubishi R&D outfit and I’m too long out of the loop for anyone to share the latest developments with, especially since much of it will be sensitive.
It’s coming though and if I had to wager the direction, this would be it.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 02:02:34 pm by Oldmanmatt »

teestub

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2574
  • Karma: +166/-4
  • Cyber Wanker
#169 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 02:26:45 pm
Despite all of the other issues with the potential tech noted above, it also seems to be an answer in search of a question. What are looking is battery tech to store energy from renewable sources, not an alternative power source.

Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 7097
  • Karma: +368/-17
  • Largely broken. Obsolete spares and scrap only.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
#170 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 02:48:04 pm
Despite all of the other issues with the potential tech noted above, it also seems to be an answer in search of a question. What are looking is battery tech to store energy from renewable sources, not an alternative power source.

I don’t think so.

I think what we are really in need of is autonomy.

No grid, no central storage.

It might be down to a smaller, regional/community affair and individual vehicles. It might shrink to individual homes and in many cases, individual devices.

You talk of expense, and I see millions of kilometres of cables hanging from pylons, redundant and ripe for repurposing.

Phones that never need recharging.

Cars that don’t need to plug in, to recharge.

Etc, etc.

We are at the point, where these things are not hypothetical. We’re moving from the proof of theory into the engineering challenge.
I know as well as anyone how hard that might prove and how many bumps and drags there may be hiding in the future.

Look, if I came and spoke to 1995 me, and told me I’d be holding in my hand, in less than ten years, a “telephone” with complete internet access (bearing in mind how basic the www was then) , a camera, video recorder and with more computing power than my desk top then, I would have said something along the lines of what you’re saying.
And then, the difference between 2005 me and his devices, and 2019 me’s stuff?

Ultimately, if we’re going to cut our emissions and even act to reverse the situation, we need to power our efforts and society. Or stop. As a species. Just give up and return to the caves, even then our camp fires would be an issue...

teestub

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2574
  • Karma: +166/-4
  • Cyber Wanker
#171 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 03:07:19 pm

Ultimately, if we’re going to cut our emissions and even act to reverse the situation, we need to power our efforts and society. Or stop. As a species. Just give up and return to the caves, even then our camp fires would be an issue...

We have the means to produce power, that mainly fits in with our current supply system and advances in this won’t involve a wholesale change in the supply and distribution of power as your discussing, which is 1) unrealistic and 2) unnecessary.

We have plenty of sources of clean power that keep getting cheaper and better and the storage is coming on with that. Interesting article the other day about using smart meters and water storage tanks as another power storage system in the same way as electric vehicles and batteries hooked up at night.

Falling Down

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4880
  • Karma: +333/-4
    • bensblogredux
#172 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 03:26:35 pm
Thanks for starting this thread Jonathan.

I've been on a bit of a journey over the last couple of years. Moving toward a more environmentally conscious way of living.  I joined the Green Party, switched to Octopus (100% renewable) Energy, became vegetarian and made a personal pledge not to fly again unless work requires me to or if there's some kind of family emergency.  I've managed to just do two flights to Europe and back in nearly three years. Got rid of the car and motorcycle last year (I accept that's very easy to do in London with the public transport available everywhere). We're in the process of permaculturing our little backyard garden and I help tend the permaculture garden at St James' in Piccadilly. Small things like carrying a metal water bottle and a compact shopping bag have massively reduced plastic consumption.

This move has got me more socially engaged and involved in local community projects - clean air for Brent, tree planting and eco-therapy events and projects. 

Anyway, I hope that doesn't come across as some kind of humblebrag or holier-than-thou stance. It was just really to say that change is possible and it's had a positive impact on me and my life.  I'll follow up with some links and resources when I have some time.










Oldmanmatt

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • At this rate, I probably won’t last the week.
  • Posts: 7097
  • Karma: +368/-17
  • Largely broken. Obsolete spares and scrap only.
    • The Boulder Bunker climbing centre
#173 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 03:45:52 pm
Do you know how much energy is lost in transmitting it across the grid? Transferring it from the prime mover to the grid?
Constantly maintaining moving parts? (Not solar, ok, cleaning pannels).

Renewables are probably the short term answer, as is fission (even at that cost, it’s cheaper than the climate catastrophe), but I don’t see it long term (ie, over the next century).

I could imagine, for instance, someone coming up with a pocket sized charging pack,  that would be able to charge your handheld equipment, for the next decade, without ever plugging in.

Or, a larger unit, for site work, charging existing power tool batteries; or hooked up to lighting etc.

As consumer items power requirements drop too. (I re-did the lighting etc in the Bunker, over the last few years, dropping consumption by more than 70% (all the lighting combined in the main bouldering area consumes 200w and replaces 12 x120w fluorescent tubes). Our coffee machine, has gone from the old 2.2 kW beast to two 800 w units, where the second one is usually off and both shut down entirely if unused for five minutes. Ditching the PC’s in favour of tablets cut consumption quite a lot, surprisingly ).

Economically, just removing the cost of extending the grid, or maintaining it, will seem extortionate. This has already happened, in telecommunications in the developing world, where installing mobile networks, make far more sense than cabling up an entire nation.

Think of the political independence that goes with energy autonomy, too. How much power do we import from France, right now? Not sure, I’ll google, but it used to be a fair old chunk. And all without drowning under wind farms and fields of panels.

The environmental  costs of renewables is not negligible, just better than fossil. I know, broken record.



abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 4287
  • Karma: +341/-25
#174 Re: Climate Change
October 15, 2019, 03:57:59 pm
Very roughly, how much energy do you get out of one of these nuclear batteries (per unit mass or volume - whichever you prefer)? i.e. are we talking about a useful amount of energy, or about it being like sticking a small solar panel on the roof your your electric car and thinking you've solved the problem of how to charge it for your long daily commute?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 04:15:31 pm by abarro81 »

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal