[Adam Lincoln]

Thought I’d do some weights on rest days from fingerboarding whilst offshore. Don’t want to bulk but want to do something that’s going to benefit me.

What reps and weight are people doing for not bulking. Is it best to work muscular endurance or strength?

Mainly looking at bench, barbell curls, military press, tri pull downs.

[mrjonathanr]

disclaimer: I know nothing.

You'd really have to be at it to gain much muscle bulk. A bit of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy - or more water in the muscle, but personally I wouldn't worry about extra weight, it's not that easy to gain.

Strength, surely. And it will train recruitment over hypertrophy. 
Sets: 3, Reps: under 12. Fewer and heavier is best for strength, but if you don't do much weights, don't trash yourself.

Someone who knows better (Nibile ? Sharratt ?) will be along soon, no doubt.

[Fiend]

The tan not getting you enough attention on Grindr??

Heavy weights, very low reps, lots of rest, mix it up.

I watched quite a few body builder videos on Youtube and then aimed to do the opposite.

[jwi]

Current thinking in sport-science is that any rep-scheme induce hypertrophy in the muscle cells if the reps are done to muscular failure (if combined with surplus of food of course). For increased strength there is plenty of evidence that stopping one or a few reps short of failure is sufficient for inducing increase in strength, and that higher load/fewer reps are generally better than lower loads and fewer reps but that variation in load is necessary for long term gains in strength.

[siderunner]

Take a look at the 5x5 programme via google. I saw decent gains in strength over a few months with negligible extra weight gain. I added 5x5 pullups to the end of the sessions.

Suggest adding deadlifts and/or squats to the exercises you mention. Big compound exercises seem to trigger more hormonal response. I shouldn’t be posting on here as I’m so weak and struggle to gain strength, but I think if you’re in that camp these exercises help.

[Nibile]

I'm on holiday at the moment, but if you give a look to my PC entries of the last few years, you could have an idea.
Will post again at the end of the week!
Sub max weights and max speed is the way to go.

[Sasquatch]

I'm on holiday at the moment, but if you give a look to my PC entries of the last few years, you could have an idea.
Will post again at the end of the week!
Sub max weights and max speed is the way to go.

second the speed, but would also add in over-max weight isometrics.  But only if you are also doing speed work.

[Nibile]

Good call, although working with supra max weights could prove tricky (setup, spotter, etc.).
Since it's a very good option to mix dynamic and static work, I prefer to do full iso holds and, even better, to add a static pause mid-way of the contraption phase.
Like half pull, 10" hold, complete pull. Or push.
Oh and do uphill sprints.

[gollum]

The other thing to consider, particularly based on you not wanting to bulk is that provided you don't go into calorific surplus, it is all but impossible to actually put on size.

[Paul B]

The other thing to consider, particularly based on you not wanting to bulk is that provided you don't go into calorific surplus, it is all but impossible to actually put on size.

I think worrying about 'bulking up' is a red herring given the impending #vanlife winter planned for Spain. In my experience, it's pretty difficult not to shed weight when living in a van as everything requires more effort than at home (filling water tanks, generally walking more etc.)!

I'd follow Mark Rippetoe's 5x5s personally (but mainly because he's got a cool name):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Rippetoe

[Nibile]

Moreover, don't get stuck into silly isolation exercises, choose multi joint ones whenever possible.
Squat instead of leg extensions, military press instead of lateral raises, deadlift instead of everything else. Etc.
Aim to perform at least two of them per session before doing some isolation work, and don't mix weights with climbing training.
Do pull ups but just as a form of conditioning.

[SA Chris]

second the speed, but would also add in over-max weight isometrics.  But only if you are also doing speed work.

Forgive my thickness, but what do you mean when you talk about speed work wrt weight training?

[seankenny]

Do pull ups but just as a form of conditioning.

So does this mean relatively high reps rather than low reps of weighted pulls? Why is the latter not a good idea?

[Nibile]

second the speed, but would also add in over-max weight isometrics.  But only if you are also doing speed work.

Forgive my thickness, but what do you mean when you talk about speed work wrt weight training?

It's about lifting a weight at the maximum speed possible. This usually involves using sub max weights to avoid grinding the rep.
Power is Strength x Speed, so working on speed is the only way for us to produce our max potential power.
Speed also involves the highest CNS recruitment, highest muscle fibers recruitment, testosterone production stimulation, and other nice things.
As climbers we want to be able to produce a lot of power without being heavy, and speed is the best tool for this.
And, before someone steps in, power is the best base for endurance.

[Nibile]

Do pull ups but just as a form of conditioning.

So does this mean relatively high reps rather than low reps of weighted pulls? Why is the latter not a good idea?

I was referring to the idea of not mixing weight training and climbing training in the same session.

Considering that not many climbers are able to do dozens of pull ups for sets on end, I would even say doing pull ups using an elastic band to take off some weight, or working on the lat machine. Greasing the groove, improving vascularization and preparing the muscles for heavy work in other sessions.
In my experience, working normal weight training and specific muscular climbing training in the same session is a waste of time. Specific strength work for climbing goes way beyond pull ups. In fact, I reached my top one armers prowess without doing a single pull up. It's much better working on leverage, speed, etc. than grinding reps.
Also, mixing the two works will result in a very long and very boring session, with one of the two being heavily penalized by the other.
We usually never factor the CNS fatigue in the equation. It takes longer than muscular fatigue to recover.
A set of max one armers or weighted pull ups could (and should) easily leave you done for the session, if properly done. And if it does not, you've not done a max effort.
So, I'd suggest to use weights sessions to focus on weights, with maybe some general technique work, say vertical stuff with no hands, at the wall.
On the other hand, you could throw some weights in during fingerboarding sessions (hoping that you do fingerboard).

It's all about having the priorities right and clear.

[Bradders]

Sub max weights and max speed is the way to go.

And, before someone steps in, power is the best base for endurance.

Appreciate you've already added to this, but could you expand on these two statements please?

Are they just your views based on experience, or can you back up with other sources?

Not saying you're wrong at all! It's just both those statements completely contradict everything I've ever read/listened to from all sorts of sources (Steve Bechtel, Lattice, Training Beta, Eric Horst, Dave Mac, to name but a few). They all, AFAIK, advocate the idea that if you increase pure strength, by lifting very heavy with low reps (I.e. close to max), you will improve both strength and underlying endurance ability.

Basically if you're right then I've wasted a whole lot of time over the last few years

As climbers we want to be able to produce a lot of power without being heavy

This I wholeheartedly agree with!

[Nibile]

Hey Bradders, I will try to be more precise.
My first statement was aimed at the original question regarding weight training, aside from climbing training.
Moving a weight at max speed produces a lot more power than grinding reps, that's why I advocate working on speed when doing weights aimed at climbing. Climbers want to be powerful, fast and explosive. Also, grinding reps tend to build muscle mass more than speed training.
This with regards to weights.

Your second question is a bit unclear. My second statement was a bit of a tongue in cheek comment for stamina plodders, who could possibly argue that power is unnecessary. So I think that you and I are saying the same thing, that is: power is an essential part of endurance training. A good base of power is essential for stamina.

If your question is about power versus strength training as the base of endurance training, I can't help you. I prefer to train power because of the many reasons explained in the post, and because moving fast is a lot more useful in climbing. Also, power is a more complete ability than strength, because it has the speed factor. Clearly, you can't work speed without a minimal base of strength, but, ceteris paribus, I'd prefer to move 100 kg fast than 130 slowly, if doing it for climbing.
Think about a dyno, or a deep lock off with a long reach: I want to get to the next hold as quickly as I can and move on.


At the moment I don't have the precise references, but what I've written comes from years and years of training and mostly from years and years of reading about training.
HTH.

[mrjonathanr]

One caveat though Nibs - and I’m not arguing with your point, which broadly matches what little I’ve gleaned on the topic: it depends what you mean by ‘climbing’.

For bouldering- power all the way. Ditto for red pointing. A bit less for onsighting.

For trad. climbing though, you need what I think of as ‘limpet strength’- the (static) ability to really hang around in one spot, feeling for holds, struggling to get out the rock 4 you jammed on 2 corners in the only feasible placement, that sort of thing 🙂

[abarro81]

I would probably argue that strength is the base for endurance... but that's mostly a finger strength thing (given that pump is mostly a forearm thing) so I think from a weights point of view it's probably not worth worrying about. Strength will make the rests feel better and mean you can shake mid-move (assuming that you do your endurance work), power will mean the moves feel easier so you spend less time faffing around before committing to the big slap. Best to have both if you've got the choice!

[Fiend]

hang around in one spot, feeling for holds, struggling to get out the rock 4 you jammed on 2 corners in the only feasible placement, that sort of thing 🙂

Grim  I sometimes wonder why I like it so much...

[Bradders]

Thanks Nibs, really helpful and given me a lot to try to work on.