[andy popp]

Hmmm, lot of people saying the same thing about finding routes of the right style and grade.

You need a similar type of focus and ability to not cock things up with minimal muscle memory.

Almost by definition you're not going to have the perfect sequence with every piece of micro-beta perfectly refined. I think you need to get efficient at quickly finding sequences that might be slightly rough and ready but work for you ... and then sticking with them (whilst being prepared to improvise mid-redpoint if necessary). A sieging mentality obsessed with doing every move perfectly is not going to be helpful.

[remus]

Lots of sound advice above.

Broadly speaking I'd guess the big thing for you is going to be getting your tactics right. There's loads of little tricks you pick up from redpointing that add up to make a big difference to your overall efficiency. For me the key is getting the balance between getting the route worked enough that you have a decent sequence while saving enough for some good burns.

On the first point, if all you want to do is get up something quickly then get stuck in to any beta videos you can find. Working a route with someone else (preferably of a similar height and ability) is also a great way of reducing the amount of effort you need to put in to finding a decent sequence. Shark's point about stick clipping up stuff is good as well, no point wasting loads of effort going bolt to bolt if you can avoid it. Even better, lower off from an adjacent route and swing over and check it out (or ab down) and have a good scope of the moves.

On actually redpointing, make your goes count. If you're low down and you cock up dont worry about dropping off, having 15 mins then going again. On the other hand if you're steaming ahead and make some small mistakes high up then start fighting: you've already committed a lot of effort to the burn so make it count. If you're working it with a friend then watch their burns with an eagle eye, you'll pick up loads of little bits that are hard to garner while you're on the route yourself.

[Fiend]

Thanks! Lots of replies, some of which made good sense to me. The universal ideas of "get better" or "pick easier routes" aren't so useful as they're applicable to any sort of climbing, and equally I'm not concerned about specific route tactics. But for general quick redpoint tactics...

How many goes does it take to do figure out the fat weak beta? If it’s one go then Andy is probably right.

If not maybe you need to spend more time on the first work go. I find I have a tendency to figure out one way of doing things and try to redpoint that before falling off and realising there was an easier way. Then I improve my beta each go, just not quite enough to account for the increased fatigue building up. 

Yes, this definitely can be an issue. I do get pretty good sequences early on, but then often have to refine them a little bit on the redpoint goes. Obviously not ideal. It's a bit tricky though, because working something on the dog, the difference between a 90% sequence and a 100% sequence might be very hard to notice, while on the redpoint it's a lot more prominent. I guess this judgement might come with experience.

Absolutely wire the finish too, so you can do it pumped silly.

Yes, I should pay extra attention to that.

You need to get the clips right.
Work out how you are going to clip on the hard bits and treat like you would a move. Do you need to extend them? Do you need to skip a clip? If you decide to skip then don’t change your mind on the RP. If the hard bit is at the bottom, clip the first couple and get down to the ground without weighting the rope.
If you have decided to go for a RP never ever shout take. 100% focus on trying to climb through if you fall you fall. The only things you can shout are watch us as you start the hard bit or off if you are actually off.
Finally don’t forget plenty of visualisation to the point that you don’t even hear on what your mate is saying if he interrupts your visualisation flow.

I think I'm pretty good at getting the clips right, it's something I do specifically practise and tinker with. Visualisation good ofc. Not shouting take obviously essential but equally requires moral fibre I sometimes lack. Incidentally I've started deliberately practising likely falls on routes to be prepared for them (i.e. prepared to ignore them).

Going for a taxing walk helps clear the mind and keep the blood flowing. A couple of jelly babies before a redpoint can help. Otherwise keep grazing on non-sugary stuff ie seeds, nuts, cheese, cold meats through the day. Obsess about staying warm at the crag - take plenty of clothing like over trousers.

If the rest before an attempt is more than 20 minutes then I’d re-recruit fingers on a portable board or by bearing down on some holds at the base of the crag. Subsequent redpoint attempts will benefit from longer rests and re-recruiting and a walk.

Other equipment suggestions to take that could give you an edge. Secret stuff liquid chalk, friction labs chalk, knee pads, variety of shoes, tape+superglue and (new to me this) Germolene new skin.

Yes good stuff. I do the grazing by habit, I've also started bringing a "Scottish mid-summer" clothing selection to the crag and putting it on even when I'm shirtless and boiling after an attempt. My hands start to get sweaty if I'm keeping the rest of my body warm but liquid chalk is helping with that. Not Secret Stuff though, that's like putting a talc-lube suspension on my hands as well as being snake oil prices. Good call about re-recruiting - I've started taking longer rests because that's what all the cool OAPs do, but I should heed the re-recruit.

I find I struggle to contain excitement / enthusiasm when the moves feel ok or after doing a good link. Expectation then builds and I then fuck up the sequence. (I’ve never really RPd anything vastly harder than in-a-day level, so I tend to figure out white quickly whether I’m going to manage something or give up.) Recent experience shows sequence concentration goes up rapidly as signs of fatigue / bad skin manifest themselves. More visualisation / calming / minimising expectation pre first redpoint is the thing I’m trying to work on way more than anything else.

Good thoughts. I'm increasingly focusing on "engaging the challenge, trying hard, and executing sequences well" rather than "getting to the top", with the additional likely benefits of getting a good work-out and further getting sequences smoother (so I get value even if I come off). I think this could be beneficial.

Choose a route that suits your style
Watch videos of people on it. Learn the sequences before arriving at the crag.
Get mate to put draws in if poss, clean, dry holds.
Work each section very carefully. I don’t clip stick up stuff personally, I have negative associations with it. Get the top really, really wired, imagining what it will be like pumped or powered out. A sequence off the rope needs to be realistic on redpoint.
Visualise.
Focus.
Only go for it when you’re ready.
Be precise when you climb. Don’t rush it. Be ‘in the moment’.
Try really hard.
If you fall off be positive, you may need less rest than you think and you will find the technicality of the moves easier even if you’re more tired.

I tend to choose routes that inspire me, irrespective from style, and then take it from there. I'm not too bothered about what other people do unless I'm discussing stuff with mates or affable climbers at the crag. I'm tending to dog up putting draws in, learning sequences as I go, this feels fine to me as I'm getting immediately familiar with the route. The other stuff all makes sense to me. I'm trying to find a good balance between climbing when I'm ready but also not getting too worried / wrapped up in precise timings.

Almost by definition you're not going to have the perfect sequence with every piece of micro-beta perfectly refined. I think you need to get efficient at quickly finding sequences that might be slightly rough and ready but work for you ... and then sticking with them (whilst being prepared to improvise mid-redpoint if necessary). A sieging mentality obsessed with doing every move perfectly is not going to be helpful.

That's a good point. It's a fine line and a fine balance. Maybe a 95% sequence is fine if it's taken less time and effort to work.

On actually redpointing, make your goes count. If you're low down and you cock up dont worry about dropping off, having 15 mins then going again. On the other hand if you're steaming ahead and make some small mistakes high up then start fighting: you've already committed a lot of effort to the burn so make it count. If you're working it with a friend then watch their burns with an eagle eye, you'll pick up loads of little bits that are hard to garner while you're on the route yourself.

Yes, this is particularly spot on. I've had good experiences with both of those - an early failed attempt when I thought I was ready but botched it low down - and found that brief go was actually useful for, I guess, re-recruitment. And attempts where I've been a bit sketchy in places but tried not to worry about that and focused on doing really well on the rest of it. This is a sort of attitude / approach learning I really like.


One thing I don't think that has been mentioned is: Improving the length of my sessions. I.e. at this time of year I generally run out of strength / energy in a session rather than daylight - if I can do longer sessions and keep climbing fairly well during those sessions, I have more opportunity to have a successful redpoint in a session, even if it's later on than planned. I've started doing this by not giving up when I'm feeling a bit tired, just resting a bit longer and keeping having goes, anticipating some tiredness but also appreciating increased familiarity with the route.

[SA Chris]

Do you have a crack at onsighting first, before you opt for IADing it? You can expend a hell of a lot of physical and mental energy fighting your way up an onsight attempt and ultimately failing, and that can screw you up for the rest of the day, especially if you have the onsight as the "gold medal" in your mind, then IAD automatically becomes silver, and you can have less enthusiasm before you even start any "working" of the route.

[Fiend]

Nope, definitely don't. If I'm picking something to redpoint it's way beyond my onsighting, and I'm pretty ruthlessly methodical about working / focusing on it.

[SA Chris]

like

[Fiend]

While I'm here, since this is UKB, I'm presuming most of this is fairly applicable to bloques in a session, with more of an emphasis on conditions and resting...

[duncan]

Fiend, thanks for starting this, it is one of those threads where I know what is being said in theory but it’s great to have it reinforced and collected in one place. I’m aware that this is also an issue for me. This may be because we come from similar climbing backgrounds, onsight trad. is where it’s at and we have not fully and completely committed to sport climbing. We’re used to starting at the bottom and not paying too much attention to others’ beta. Due to habit, or because it feels morally wrong (!), deviating from this approach doesn't come naturally.

I'm not too bothered about what other people do unless I'm discussing stuff with mates or affable climbers at the crag. I'm tending to dog up putting draws in, learning sequences as I go, this feels fine to me as I'm getting immediately familiar with the route.

 
This could genuinely be the most efficient approach for you but consider you might be doing it because you’ve not completely embraced The Dark Side.

[Will Hunt]

It's weird that Fiend hasn't really engaged much with redpointing till now. Redpoint sport climbing is a dour, bleak, miserable, grumpy experience and I think Fiend has a lot of fine attributes to bring to the table.

[cheque]

onsight trad. is where it’s at and we have not fully and completely committed to sport climbing. We’re used to starting at the bottom and not paying too much attention to others’ beta.

Another thing I find is that when onsighting, particularly on trad, I get through sections and don’t retain the knowledge of how I did it at all, just stay in the moment and look at what’s to come. This isn’t very compatible with sport climbing and even if I fall off or hang on a trad route I can find myself baffled by moves I did 30 minutes previously when I give it another go.

My best period of in-a-day sport climbing was my second trip to the Red when there’d always be 3 or 4 of us trying the same route, watching each other and comparing beta. It was like having an extra go myself every time one of my mates went up.

In contrast, most of my times climbing on UK lime sport (which I have a very bad in-a-day record on) are with partners who did “my” route years before, can’t remember what they did and are more focussed on whatever they’re working.

[jwi]

What's the point of trying to do routes in a day if relying on other people's beta? Padding the score card?

[SA Chris]

While I'm here, since this is UKB, I'm presuming most of this is fairly applicable to bloques in a session, with more of an emphasis on conditions and resting...

I polled this question aeons ago. I thin consensus was rests and microbeta refinement.

[andy popp]

What's the point of trying to do routes in a day if relying on other people's beta? Padding the score card?

But if a given route is not a candidate for an onsight attempt (and Fiend's made it clear that this is the case for him) what's the point in not getting some beta?

Some of the differences in philosophy here might be down to difference of climbing styles in different areas. Given their short bouldery nature many UK sport routes are very feasible as in a day targets but unlikely as onsights.

[monkoffunk]

What's the point of trying to do routes in a day if relying on other people's beta? Padding the score card?

My wife keeps telling me she thinks climbing is pretty much the same as stamp collecting the way I talk about it. 

[reeve]

What's the point of trying to do routes in a day if relying on other people's beta? Padding the score card?

But if a given route is not a candidate for an onsight attempt (and Fiend's made it clear that this is the case for him) what's the point in not getting some beta?

I imagine that it depends on what you want to get out of doing sport routes in a day (SRIAD?). I'd guess that Fiend is doing them as a way of maintaining / developing skills which will also be useful for trad on-sighting, such as working out sequences which are just above his ability to suss out on the OS. If this is his goal, then getting video beta would defeat the objective. Of course, if you want to redpoint something in a day because it is rarely in condition, its the last day of a trip, or you're a puerile ticker, then getting video beta sounds very sensible.

(In my experience, other benefits from quick redpoints are getting accustomed to trying hard above gear / a bolt, some physical training benefit, experimenting with less reliable sequences or moves which you can then hope to incorporate into trad onsights once you've gained confidence in them. 1-2 session redpoints give you this without the tedium and lack of novel terrain that comes with multi-year sieges.)

[nai]

What's the point of trying to do routes in a day if relying on other people's beta? Padding the score card?

For me it'd be simply to save having to go back for it.  Bit of a waste of a session putting clips in to do it first go then remove them again if you could have done it previously with better tactics or beta

[cheque]

relying on other people's beta

I can’t speak for anyone else but my example wasn’t meant to say “just let other people tell you exactly how to climb it” (does that even work?) it was meant to describe how working a route at the same time as others and talking about it/ being aware of other people’s approaches (whether they work for you or not) is both more fun and more productive in my experience.

Padding the score card

What does this even mean? If it’s just a disparaging way of describing climbing a lot of routes then it’s a strange thing to try and make other climbers feel bad about.

[SA Chris]

jwi slipping into Jens mentality again.

[tomtom]

It's weird that Fiend hasn't really engaged much with redpointing till now. Redpoint sport climbing is a dour, bleak, miserable, grumpy experience

I thought you said you didnt do much repointing?

[tomtom]

Yes. Thank you for reminding me. Selecting a belayer who pays a modicum of attention and is therefore less likely to short rope you, on the fucking crux FFS, helps improve the chances of redpoint success.

I've found your ideal rope holder Shark!!

https://www.faulhaber.com/en/markets/environmental-safety/electronic-partner-for-individual-climbing-epic/

[Fiend]

I imagine that it depends on what you want to get out of doing sport routes in a day (SRIAD?). I'd guess that Fiend is doing them as a way of maintaining / developing skills which will also be useful for trad on-sighting, such as working out sequences which are just above his ability to suss out on the OS.

Actually it - redpointing overall - is mostly to have fun (sorry Will, I'm just not dedicated enough to the cause), and keep fit and active while I'm avoiding feeling scared on proper climbing, with additional benefits of pulling hardish on smallish holds and taking a few falls (i.e. a bit useful for general progression). Doing SRIAD is because I like trying different routes and crags and stuff, and don't really have the boredom tolerance for sieges - and it's quite interesting learning about it, as answers in this thread have shown.

I'll happily use bits of beta in person but I do like working stuff out myself and I'm pretty good at it I think (and good at remembering it), that is definitely a big part of the fun - problem solving. Of course in that context, the general advice of "be open to refinements and extra beta" is good SRIAD advice

[Paul B]

I've found your ideal rope holder Shark!!

His ideal belayer is a tree stump, a sling and a handled ascender!

I'll happily use bits of beta in person but I do like working stuff out myself and I'm pretty good at it I think (and good at remembering it), that is definitely a big part of the fun - problem solving. Of course in that context, the general advice of "be open to refinements and extra beta" is good SRIAD advice

This could genuinely be the most efficient approach for you but consider you might be doing it because you’ve not completely embraced The Dark Side.

It seems that what you're willing to take on board is at the 'marginal gains' end of the spectrum.  If you were truly interested in increasing your 'in a day' performance you'd be looking harder at the other suggestions (even if you don't like them).

You'll waste energy, time and skin starting up on a typical UK sport route lacking beta. There's a reason why as Andy suggests above that many are good candidates for IAD but not OS.

It's weird that Fiend hasn't really engaged much with redpointing till now. Redpoint sport climbing is a dour, bleak, miserable, grumpy experience

The best RPers (SuperTed; Jordan) I know are eternal optimists willing to  in poor conditions (usually stating that things are drying back) who just keep showing up and taking delight in the smallest refinements and victories. It's really impressive to watch. One of my best efforts in recent years followed a similar pattern of getting on a route when it wasn't entirely dry (missing out vast sections), I then caught a break on the one day the start dried properly and with a cool breeze found myself wildly pedaling my feet on the head-wall.

[Fiend]

It seems that what you're willing to take on board is at the 'marginal gains' end of the spectrum.

Maybe, maybe not - there's been a lot of cumulatively good suggestions in this thread. Either way I'd rather take the marginal gains of resting well / keeping really warm / going for a walk / really refining beta early on / keeping fuelled / re-recruiting / over-working finishes to account for pump / not getting fazed by little mistakes etc etc whilst enjoying working out the climbing, than subjecting myself to a soulless join-the-dots exercise in blindly following instructions, even assuming the beta for some 60kg cunt / 6 foot cunt / 8c climbing cunt worked for me....

I met Jordan the other day, he came off a route in a "giving up" sort of way, looked quite hufffy, and then was quite clear in his usual affable way that conditions were far too fucking hot for anything except lounging around and how psyched he was for 14'c and gales later in the week. I took that as good confirmation of how clarty it felt for me.

[Mr E S Capegoat]

Just breaking rank (anomaly) to confirm that ‘yes Matt this thread is possibly the most boring thing you could have come up with’ fucking genius mate

[Fiend]

Sigh. Can you lot cyber-bully him off my so-far useful and informative thread please??