[Fiend]

The OTHER type of performance, i.e. not what you do, but how you do it, not what you get done, but how you get there...

"the action or process of performing a task or function"

Was Dan barking up the wrong tree with his performance ponderings?? Was he so blinded by the glory of the "limits" that he wasn't seeing the "process"?? Regardless, I think THIS aspect of performance can be a measure of self worth.

It's not about the attainment, the acheivement, the ticks, the numbers, the measures of difficulty. It's about what you actually do on the climb, regardless of the end result. It's about approach, attitude, work put in, challenges overcome, pleasures enjoyed, about the quality of effort and the quality of experience - how you perform on the climb.

And surely this can be a valid measure of self-worth?? An expression and example of your quality as a climber and a human being??

Crag and route choice through genuine desire, respect for your partner and those around you, good planning and strategy before starting the climb, pacing, judgement, the execution of logistical and tactical skills, trying hard, accepting the challenge, using your best technique, acknowledging and dealing with any mental and emotional stress, resisting escape or retreat, maintaining a positive attitude, etc etc. All of which may or may not result in a "big tick" , but almost certainly will be a quality performance and expression of self.

Or the converse. We surely all know people, maybe including ourselves, who have got the end result, but the performance leading to it was shoddy as fuck, perhaps ridiculously protracted, perhaps characterised by a stink-arse attitude.

Discuss.

[tomtom]

Pink Anasazi.

[Johnny Brown]

Fiend, I think you've nailed it.

[Oldmanmatt]

Ummm...


Yes?

[andy_e]

What's the best Lattice workout for training self-worth?

[reeve]

And surely this can be a valid measure of self-worth?? An expression and example of your quality as a climber and a human being??

Crag and route choice through genuine desire, respect for your partner and those around you, good planning and strategy before starting the climb, pacing, judgement, the execution of logistical and tactical skills, trying hard, accepting the challenge, using your best technique, acknowledging and dealing with any mental and emotional stress, resisting escape or retreat, maintaining a positive attitude, etc etc. All of which may or may not result in a "big tick" , but almost certainly will be a quality performance and expression of self.

I think that's a great list of things to work on to enhance the reward you can get from climbing (or most pursuits, actually). But I don't think that should have anything to do with self-worth. I wouldn't say that I personally am there yet, but surely starting from the a priori assumption that everyone is of equal worth is more important to maintaining a sense of one's own self-worth; the way that you approach climbing - in a values driven manner that you described - is surely a good way to gain a sense of mastery, enjoyment, and satisfaction which is not dependent on comparison with others or uncontrollable things such as how hard the route actually transpires to be. I strongly doubt you intended to conflate these two things but it's important to distinguish them imo.

[Oldmanmatt]

What's the best Lattice workout for training self-worth?

Any.

If I pretend to take your comment seriously...

Because training is as much a rewarding activity as climbing is, with it’s own challenges and self imposed goals. It has it’s own flow and pleasing rhythm. Can be enjoyed alone or as a social activity.

[andy popp]

Fiend, I think you've nailed it.

Me too. Climbing with desire more than ambition, with a healthy balance of expectations and a willingness to see what happens.

[NaoB]

I like this fiend. Good post. It's something I strive towards, enjoying the feeling of climbing, the surroundings and the company, instead of getting caught up with 'the send'.

I have to confess to still being grumpy sometimes when I don't finish a climb, and much sunnier when I do. But I'm working on it!

[tomtom]

Just like following a shit football team. Generally failure - with the odd nugget of success but generally good fun along the way...

[Fiend]

Cheers guys. There might not have been so much to discuss as I had envisaged, but it was definitely a distinction that has been prominent in my mind recently (I've had good sends with bad performances - a bit dissatisfying despite getting the tick; failure due to bad performances - infuriating;and unremarkable sends but due to good performances - rewarding!).

In a tl,dr form, I guess it's the value from what you give to the climb, rather than what you take from it. God that sounds like hippy crap. But for something to base self-worth in climbing around, it seems good.


Reeve: thanks for your considered reply. I must confess I'm not 100% sure what you mean, but despite me writing comparative examples, my main thrust is not really comparing oneself to others - feeling "better" because you gave a better performance to a route than some other sod who also ticked it could be just as shallow as feeling better than someone because you ticked a bigger number. It's more just feeling independently good about yourself because you did good (and not just got a good end result).

[reeve]

Cheers guys. There might not have been so much to discuss as I had envisaged...

I guess that's because you hit the nail so firmly on the head in your OP!

Reeve: thanks for your considered reply. I must confess I'm not 100% sure what you mean, but despite me writing comparative examples, my main thrust is not really comparing oneself to others - feeling "better" because you gave a better performance to a route than some other sod who also ticked it could be just as shallow as feeling better than someone because you ticked a bigger number. It's more just feeling independently good about yourself because you did good (and not just got a good end result).

Reading back through my last reply i can see why you might not have understood it! I was trying to distinguish between factors behind self-worth, and factors behind feeling happy / satisfaction / proud etc. At the risk of making this post sound like a textbook, I'll define what I mean by each. Self-worth is more about whether you see yourself as a valid and valuable human being, which clearly has nothing to do with climbing although conflating ones own climbing ability with their own self worth is an easy trap to fall into. Experiencing a state of contentment / satisfaction / pride at the way that one has approached a climb is what you were talking about, I think, and I agree is the best way of enjoying climbing (or anything else I can think of) and gaining the most pleasure and reward from it. But no matter how good or how poorly one approaches a climb - that person is still just as valid and worthwhile as a human.

The part of your OP in which I think you tangled up self-worth and a feeling of reward is this bit:

...about the quality of effort and the quality of experience - how you perform on the climb.
And surely this can be a valid measure of self-worth??

For an example of how this could be damaging, imagine having a crappy week at work or in a relationship then going out tradventuring at the weekend. Your mind is elsewhere, so on the climb you are more prone to wanting a simple tick to feel good about yourself. Paradoxically, wanting a simple tick puts you in a suboptimal frame of mind for a runout crux. You back off and watch your mate - unencumbered by emotional turmoil from a crap week - cruise the route to show you how it's done. Obviously anyone but the most zen yogi is going to feel pissed off, but you don't want to let let such an experience affect your self-worth because at the end of the day the process of how you perform on rock isn't a measure of anyones value as a human being.

As I said in my last post, I strongly doubt that you would think of climbing performance (process or outcome) as defining value of a person. I think your OP did a really good job of disentangling process vs outcome definitions of performance; but it didn't quite disentangle the subjective sense of reward from climbing well vs seeing this as part of our value as a human.

Make any more sense? I hope I haven't followed Dan's wormhole into pseudopsychobabble 

[shark]

We surely all know people, maybe including ourselves, who have got the end result, but the performance leading to it was shoddy as fuck, perhaps ridiculously protracted,

Not even got the end result. Feel so worthless

[Fiend]

Shark, my counter-examples weren't necessarily referring to anyone in particular, but maybe the "banging head against wall" means of getting up a climb can be harder to get value from - as something at one extreme end of the spectrum. Conversely floating up a route as if it's a trivial warm-up can sometimes be less rewarding (apart from beauty of movement maybe) as it's a certaintity with less input from the climber. Then again maybe the sheer relentless amount of hard work in the former might be what the climber wants...

Reeve - cheers, I get it now. Maybe just a matter of terminology, but I had to use "self-worth" to mirror DanC's thread...