[shark]

 

[Fiend]

You've got to be smoking some serious gangsta-grade crack to even for a moment consider filling it in - and/or be chronically and delusionally obsessed with maintaining the difficulty / grade / what-ever of the problems to the point of losing all sense of perspective. It's just one hold that from all accounts has just got slightly bigger and made a few problems and link-ups slightly easier at a venue that is essentially a dismally unaesthetic mix-and-match training venue that people only visit because it's roadside and close to perma-dry. It's Peak Limestone, it's invariably choss, bits fall off all the time and unless it's actually ruined a problem / route by making it seriously unfeasible / unpleasant (as seems to happen a lot and gets rightly repaired a lot, and is the polar opposite in this case), then surely graciously accept the good fortune that the problems have got a bit easier.

[haydn jones]

leave it.

[T_B]

leave it.

Can’t believe you’re willing to forgo the challenge of there-back and there again, in its OG state.

FWIW it’ll get filled in whether or not there’s a poll on UKB. It’s so big it’s bound to break anyway unless it gets glued😂.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Here's a question.

How many wobbly bits will now be fair game?

The question isn't really about the one problem, is it?

Someone had been there, firtling around. On Peak lime, that's tantamount to chipping.

While we're at it, it probably needs more glue anyway.

Fill it 

[carlisle slapper]

  glueing holds back  filling holds back in with glue  especially when it's perfectly climbable and sound. I know its only limestone but please give it half a chance.

[Stabbsy]

Someone had been there, firtling around. On Peak lime, that's tantamount to chipping.

Apologies for the long post. I was quite happy to leave this topic alone and let folk decide what to do, but since it sounds like I'm being accused of something "tantamount to chipping" maybe I should make myself crystal clear. Frankly, I'm surprised/disappointed that I need to defend myself against someone like Dave who has that much experience of Peak lime and is aware of what the rock can be like.

So, to correct the above quote, no-one was there furtling around. I was there doing something we all do - I was climbing. I was trying a few different options on the move from the wobbly hold to the left hand slot to see if I was missing a better sequence with my feet (I was), got set up for the move to the slot, looked at the slot and then, as I started to move my left, hit the mat. The offending bit of rock was on the mat with me. There were no spotters, no-one else at the crag and no phones set up to video every attempt, so you can either take my word for it or decide you know better.

If the above describes an action "tantamount to chipping" then everyone who's snapped a hold off a route/problem is a chipper and there aren't going to be many Peak/UK sport climbers who can hold their heads up high to Dave's lofty principles (even Dave?). On those grounds, I'm responsible for "chipping" at numerous crags around the country - I can probably provide a list if anyone's interested, it's got nearly every sport lime crag I've been to in the UK on and that's a fair number. I haven't even restricted my "chipping" to sport routes - I even "chipped" some routes at the trad heartlands of Pembroke and Gogarth. So let's get this in perspective, it's not chipping, it's a loose hold that came off. Fill it in or leave it alone, it makes little difference, the problem's covered in glue anyway. However, don't refer to what happened as being "tantamount to chipping" or "definitely excavated", because mud sticks (even after it's brushed off) especially when it's thrown by well-known/well-respected climbers like Dave.

FWIW, I'm in the same camp as Dan when it comes to glueing holds back and filling holds in - it's a massive can of worms. Where the rock is stable and the problem still climbable at broadly the same grade, leave it alone. The crags  are in a continual state of erosion/decay (albeit over a very long timeframe) so we're fighting against a very strong tide if we think we can maintain things in the state similar to our current tiny frame of reference. Some routes/holds are always going to be temporary - does that mean we should try and save everything? If a move is done once without a hold coming off, does that mean it's now a permanent fixture? Where the rock is unstable post-break, I can see arguments for tidying up and where grades change significantly (particularly upwards) I can see some logic, but it's a fine balance. In this case, the hold is stable (probably more so than the rest of the problem), the grade broadly unchanged so leave it be.

As an aside, I can remember a hold being added back to Biological Need at Kilnsey when it went from F7c to F8a about 20 years ago and I'm glad it was because it's a great route, but I'm also glad it wasn't me making the decision because I'm not sure I'd have come to the same conclusion. The details of that decision have been lost in the mists of time, as will any decisions made about Weedkiller. In the case of Biological, the internet echo chamber didn't exist or was used far less, so much less hand-wringing and righteous quotes to be found, but I'd guess it wasn't clear-cut.

Bill Ramsey made an interesting point on chipping in the recent Runout podcast, saying that chipping should be an overall consideration encompassing aesthetics, ethics, etc. (I might be paraphrasing) and that decisions should be made by experienced route developers. I think similarly here - does a UKB poll give you the right answer? Does everyone voting have all the information? Has everyone been engaged? Neil Gresham found the sharp end of such internet polls when he bolted the start of Deja Vu (I think) a few years back. However the decision gets made, I hope people think about the aesthetics (hard at Raven Tor, I know!), the overall problem and the reason why they're filling or not filling the hold, rather than some knee jerk reaction to a small nubbin of rock going missing.

[shark]

Yes I’m not sure why Dave said that given your previous post - maybe he’d missed it.

The poll isn’t to decide as such but intended as useful feedback for crag activists.

I would be 100% for refilling if it had been deliberately removed. I’m 75% for refilling knowing it was accidentally removed. The Tor has more of a history of hold reattachment than anywhere else I know. The poll indicates I’m currently in the minority. As usual

Did you keep the lump?

[Oldmanmatt]

Yes I’m not sure why Dave said that given your previous post - maybe he’d missed it.

The poll isn’t to decide as such but intended as useful feedback for crag activists.

I would be 100% for refilling if it had been deliberately removed. I’m 75% for refilling knowing it was accidentally removed. The Tor has more of a history of hold reattachment than anywhere else I know. The poll indicates I’m currently in the minority. As usual

Did you keep the lump?

No, no, it’s actually not clear.

If you apply the Farage school of interpretation of percentages, this could go either way.
Depends how you feel.

[bigironhorse]

Is it back down to 7A+ now then? 

[tomtom]

Is it back down to 7A+ now then? 

The hard move is later on Shirley - the long reach with the right heel locked in - rather than the first couple of moves...

[yetix]

Didn't feel 7B to me yesterday, but the crux for me was at the end anyhow as TomTom said. Felt like 7A/+

[Wood FT]

The crux is by far the first throw from the crimps if you're short

[tomtom]

The crux is by far the first throw from the crimps if you're short olympic climbing athlete height

[Fiend]

Why do you want it reattached, sharkle??

[AlistairB]

Unless there's a risk of the whole thing coming off, just leave it IMO. A partial fill-in job seems arbitrary even by the arbitrary standards of peak lime hold repair and would open a huge can of worms  .

I agree that hold repair / reconstruction should be saved for when breakage has ruined a route, usually when something critical breaks and the route gets miles harder with a crap 1 move crux. We can't ever stop rock from changing completely and there's always the risk of a bad job being done.

[Will Hunt]

Why do you want it reattached, sharkle??

Because sieging and repeating a 7B traverse ad infinitum is respectable but a 7A/+ traverse is just embarrassing.






Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Will Hunt]

Btw, once this thing has been re-filled in, please can you pop up to Woodwell and reattach the bit that came off there? I think that altered a couple of classic arse-drags.

[shark]

Why do you want it reattached, sharkle??

To preserve a classic testpiece

[abarro81]

I'm sure Ru once told me that the start was different to how it used to be anyway (maybe the LH edge didn't used to exist or be the same?).. same for various things - better foot on Kaabah, Powerband/Staminaband feet...

[Bonjoy]

I remember the start hold being different/better many years ago. The latter crux holds also changed a bit when I took them off and re-glued back (the old glue was failing), maybe 15 years ago. Yeah, the footholds on the middle bit of Powerband have changed a lot over the year too.
Around the same time I stuck a hold back onto Chimes upside down by accident. Fortunately Stone ripped it off not long after and it went back on the right way up.
There's a lot of glue on the Tor. I'm surprised so much soul searching is going on in relation to a another few ounces of it. That's not to suggest I care either way.

[abarro81]

That's not to suggest I care either way.

ditto, I don't think it hugely matters either way

[Stabbsy]

Did you keep the lump?

Left under the hold at the crag - it was about 3 or 4 weeks ago so might no longer be there.

[shark]

Did you keep the lump?

Left under the hold at the crag - it was about 3 or 4 weeks ago so might no longer be there.

Was it this?

https://m.imgur.com/eg2MnDo,4UIb6O6

[Fiend]

Why do you want it reattached, sharkle??

Is it a better or worse testpiece with that hold though??

To preserve a classic testpiece

[shark]

Is it a better or worse testpiece with that hold though??

The whole idea of a testpiece is that it is a benchmark / measure so change isn’t desirable in that respect. Whether it is a better or worse problem with the bigger hold is another question.

[tomtom]

The whole idea of a testpiece is that it is a benchmark / measure so change isn’t desirable in that respect.

Peak lime ain't the best for that then.... like making a ruler out of bread...

[Will Hunt]

Does it not just become a benchmark 7A+ (or whatever) testpiece? I'm sure there are other 7B testpieces out there. 


Caveat: I've never been to The Snore and have no strong feeling about what happens here.

[petejh]

A foothold on Rockatrocity came off a few weeks ago. Perhaps this is an opportunity for an anglo-welsh limestone cultural exchange - the Weedkiller handhold could be donated to the cave guardians to be reattached on RA and the Rockatrocity foothold given in gift to the peak Torlords be glued back on Weedkiller.

[r-man]

Is it a better or worse testpiece with that hold though??

The whole idea of a testpiece is that it is a benchmark / measure so change isn’t desirable in that respect. Whether it is a better or worse problem with the bigger hold is another question.

Weedkiller a benchmark? It used to be 7A+. Then got upgraded to 7B. Surely much easier than most lime 7Bs? Don't think it can be a benchmark.

On testpieces... There are couple of possible meaning origins for testpiece. Either a piece of music performed by contestants in a competition, or a piece of material used to gauge its properties.

The latter fits the idea of a problem determining a certain difficulty level. But the former offers the possibility that a testpiece can just be a notable challenge. I think I prefer that one.

[shark]

A notable challenge made easier can’t be good thing though - can it?

[tomtom]

A notable challenge made easier can’t be good thing though - can it?

You sound like my wife 😂

[kingholmesy]

Caveat: I've never been to The Snore

You’ve not lived. 

[Coops_13]

Caveat: I've never been to The Snore and have no strong feeling about what happens here.

How can you possibly catalogue the unknown stones when you haven’t been to the Known stones!

[tomtom]

Reports that say that something hasn't been climbed are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known stones; there are stones we know we know. We also know there are known unknownstones; that is to say we know there are some stones we do not know. But there are also unknown unknownstones—the stones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones.

[Will Hunt]

Reports that say that something hasn't been climbed are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known stones; there are stones we know we know. We also know there are known unknownstones; that is to say we know there are some stones we do not know. But there are also unknown unknownstones—the stones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones.

The familiarity of that gave me a horrible feeling for a moment that I'd actually said it.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Someone had been there, firtling around. On Peak lime, that's tantamount to chipping.

Apologies for the long post. I was quite happy to leave this topic alone and let folk decide what to do, but since it sounds like I'm being accused of something "tantamount to chipping" maybe I should make myself crystal clear. Frankly, I'm surprised/disappointed that I need to defend myself against someone like Dave who has that much experience of Peak lime and is aware of what the rock can be like.

So, to correct the above quote, no-one was there furtling around. I was there doing something we all do - I was climbing. I was trying a few different options on the move from the wobbly hold to the left hand slot to see if I was missing a better sequence with my feet (I was), got set up for the move to the slot, looked at the slot and then, as I started to move my left, hit the mat. The offending bit of rock was on the mat with me. There were no spotters, no-one else at the crag and no phones set up to video every attempt, so you can either take my word for it or decide you know better.

If the above describes an action "tantamount to chipping" then everyone who's snapped a hold off a route/problem is a chipper and there aren't going to be many Peak/UK sport climbers who can hold their heads up high to Dave's lofty principles (even Dave?). On those grounds, I'm responsible for "chipping" at numerous crags around the country - I can probably provide a list if anyone's interested, it's got nearly every sport lime crag I've been to in the UK on and that's a fair number. I haven't even restricted my "chipping" to sport routes - I even "chipped" some routes at the trad heartlands of Pembroke and Gogarth. So let's get this in perspective, it's not chipping, it's a loose hold that came off. Fill it in or leave it alone, it makes little difference, the problem's covered in glue anyway. However, don't refer to what happened as being "tantamount to chipping" or "definitely excavated", because mud sticks (even after it's brushed off) especially when it's thrown by well-known/well-respected climbers like Dave.

FWIW, I'm in the same camp as Dan when it comes to glueing holds back and filling holds in - it's a massive can of worms. Where the rock is stable and the problem still climbable at broadly the same grade, leave it alone. The crags  are in a continual state of erosion/decay (albeit over a very long timeframe) so we're fighting against a very strong tide if we think we can maintain things in the state similar to our current tiny frame of reference. Some routes/holds are always going to be temporary - does that mean we should try and save everything? If a move is done once without a hold coming off, does that mean it's now a permanent fixture? Where the rock is unstable post-break, I can see arguments for tidying up and where grades change significantly (particularly upwards) I can see some logic, but it's a fine balance. In this case, the hold is stable (probably more so than the rest of the problem), the grade broadly unchanged so leave it be.

As an aside, I can remember a hold being added back to Biological Need at Kilnsey when it went from F7c to F8a about 20 years ago and I'm glad it was because it's a great route, but I'm also glad it wasn't me making the decision because I'm not sure I'd have come to the same conclusion. The details of that decision have been lost in the mists of time, as will any decisions made about Weedkiller. In the case of Biological, the internet echo chamber didn't exist or was used far less, so much less hand-wringing and righteous quotes to be found, but I'd guess it wasn't clear-cut.

Bill Ramsey made an interesting point on chipping in the recent Runout podcast, saying that chipping should be an overall consideration encompassing aesthetics, ethics, etc. (I might be paraphrasing) and that decisions should be made by experienced route developers. I think similarly here - does a UKB poll give you the right answer? Does everyone voting have all the information? Has everyone been engaged? Neil Gresham found the sharp end of such internet polls when he bolted the start of Deja Vu (I think) a few years back. However the decision gets made, I hope people think about the aesthetics (hard at Raven Tor, I know!), the overall problem and the reason why they're filling or not filling the hold, rather than some knee jerk reaction to a small nubbin of rock going missing.

Stabbsy, what's this "defending myself from someone like Dave" rubbish? 

I went on what I'd seen, and what it looked like - in the absence of any other info.

It's reassuring to get the low down from you about what did happen. If you've posted info anywhere else, I wasn't aware of it. So, no reference to you there 

I've seen plenty of holds scraped out before - as we all have, and it looked as though some of the other rock there had seen some attention too.

I think the flake could do with pinning pre-emptively.

[tomtom]

Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups

It's hardly a fuck up TT.

We all make guesses, all the time, and mine wasn't unreasonable.

The word "enlarged" could mean many things - rather than "broken".

 FWIW I think that if I'd read Stabbsy's post on another thread, I wouldn't have been likely to suggest that "someone had been firtling around". 

I'd still support filling it.

[shark]

No one’s like Dave

[NaoB]

A solution to please all involved: find a suitable size rock and attach a little handle to the front. Then it can be inserted or removed depending on the climbers preference. Hey presto!

[Moo]

I'm gonna smash the whole problem to pieces with a sledgehammer and give you guys something to really talk about.

[moose]

Weedkiller a benchmark? It used to be 7A+. Then got upgraded to 7B. Surely much easier than most lime 7Bs? Don't think it can be a benchmark.

On testpieces... There are couple of possible meaning origins for testpiece. Either a piece of music performed by contestants in a competition, or a piece of material used to gauge its properties.

The latter fits the idea of a problem determining a certain difficulty level. But the former offers the possibility that a testpiece can just be a notable challenge. I think I prefer that one.

Perhaps "rite of passage" is more apt - with its implications of a faintly unpleasant experience that's sold to each new generation as "character building".