[Kingy]

The heel toe is for the RF but it is at the top of the pillar on the left hence your body is pulled leftwards. V hard to start pulling on off the rope. Unless I am mistaken the bolt is too far right to pull on in this position, not too too far left but I might be wrong, it's been a while since I was last on it. Probably easier to chat at the crag but I agree with the proposal in general.

[Nigel]

Having tried this a couple of times, I agree with Ted - I can't remember if the first bolt is too far left or too far right. Or too high. What I can remember is that yes, you basically have to do the whole start to try the hardest sequence - move to the flake i.e. you can't dog it at all. It's the crux by miles and it would be nice to test positions and how to hold the holds. To be honest an extra lower bolt would be nice to have clipped for belaying as it would provide extra friction (fall is close to deck) and might direct the dead rope better so not in way.

For me - go for it.

Its only the tor anyway.

[Ru]

Leave it. Everyone that's ever done it has done it with the bolt in that place and whilst it's not perfectly placed, it's not that bad either. It's only a few inches away from an ideal position and it's hardly onerous doing the one 5c move to get into the right hand slot from the floor.

I wholly disagree that we should be encouraging people to do this route. It's the best feature at the Tor and there's no need to encourage people to polish up the start even more. Plus, the route is historically sensitive - the bolts replaced like-for-like the drilled threads that protected the original ascent. Adding a convenience bolt will encourage someone to whack one in the runout at the top, because, why not - it's awkward to work and stick clip past.

[Nigel]

Despite my opinion (which is my ideal world, great if it was bolted like that originally), I also can't disagree with anything ru says. Difficult subject!

[tomtom]

(Pedant mode) wouldn’t a dogging bolt reduce the likelihood of the bottom (off the deck) parts getting polished?

Anyway - isn’t there something else you could try instead in the Peak Shark?

[shark]

I thought the runout on Obsession added to the character. Steve Crowe put it in for Karin IIRC.

Steve updated me. I was misinformed. It was put in by someone else after someone took a bad fall. Sorry Steve and Karin

[shark]

Anyway - isn’t there something else you could try instead in the Peak Shark?

Pretty crappy comment per se.

Just to be clear I was in fact scoping out reaction for a friend who was up for just pressing ahead and putting one in. I did have a go at dogging it and it was a pain. As I said I am agnostic on the subject.

[tomtom]

Anyway - isn’t there something else you could try instead in the Peak Shark?

Pretty crappy comment per se.

Just to be clear I was in fact scoping out reaction for a friend who was up for just pressing ahead and putting one in. I did have a go at dogging it and it was a pain. As I said I am agnostic on the subject.

Probably missing a 😃 at the end of that statement to make it clear I was being silly. No offence meant

[DAVETHOMAS90]

(Pedant mode) wouldn’t a dogging bolt reduce the likelihood of the bottom (off the deck) parts getting polished?

Anyway - isn’t there something else you could try instead in the Peak Shark?

I don't think that's "Pedant Mode" TT. It's a very good point. It may lead to more wear on the crux too - having the current bolt in a "poor" position.

I'm more inclined to think that, if a route is bolted, do it properly. I was talking about Sardine again the other night. Why on earth has there never been a lower bolt at the start, or has that route been bolted to reflect where the previous wire and pegs were?

The belay too, I think that should be a "primo" set up.

I can also fully appreciate Ru's points about the historical perspective - and why that's so important. However, I was really surprised by the initial resistance, and thought it's sad that the same is generally not the case with retro-bolting full stop.

Unfortunately these sorts of debates really seem to come down to trying to work out whether the "Yes" group is bigger than the "No" group, and whether you're going to have enough support after the event.

I think it's better to be clear about what you're doing, and your own arguments for (and against), and be willing to stick your neck out. I hate the way that the BMC is often used as some sort of spurious claim to democratic decision making on local crag ethics.

If you're willing to stick your neck out, then you're probably going to make the better decision.? Or rather, do it in a better way.

Final comments. Revelations is a majestic route, and maybe ensuring it's bolted in the best way possible would be more fitting to it's status.

On the other hand, the historical perspective is really important - but is the ethic of only bolting where the previous (drilled) placements were, really strong (used) enough to justify the messy compromise that results?

[T_B]

I've tried Rev a few times hanging off the first bolt with a Ggrigri. Yes, it's inconvenient that the hard bit is steep and right at the bottom, but I can't see another bolt helping that much. You're either strong/good enough to pull off the slot or not. A dogging bolt will just see more people spending longer dicking about. I reckon if you're good enough to do the moves you can cope with the current bolt placement.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Sorry Shark.

My post could read as a slur on your own decision making, which wasn't intended!

To properly address the question, what I was trying to say is that if we review how Revelations is bolted, then the dogging bolt question may be redundant in any case.

[petejh]

I think it's a really bad idea.

Peppering an existing route with new 12mm holes* because its a pain in the arse to dog a section? Just no; it seems like the same principle as not chipping a hold to make the route easier, albeit a greyer version of that dilemma. I'd prefer a new dogging bolt TBH.

*obvs an exaggeration for the purposes of making the point.

Bit surprised to see you making such exaggerated statements like that Stu! There's a world of difference between a 12mm hole and an 8mm hole on a route. The former would be seen, and possibly used as a mono by some beast while the latter would be difficult to see if you weren't looking for it and couldn't be used as a hold, even by the pre-pubecent folk who seem to crush peak 8s every other week these days.

To be clear I'm not actually encouraging this to done I just thought it an interesting possible solution to the problem Shark was presenting. And TBH if he'd have gone out and drilled said 8mm hole, you'd all be none the wiser and perhaps wondering how the hell he (or his mate) had sussed out the crux so quickly. Like you I don't think we should be drilling 8mm holes for petzl couer pulses all over crags as a matter of standard practice either.

I disagree with the 'historical precedent' argument put forward by some though - the precedent for 80s UK bolting was for it to be done really badly, using shit equipment, often in poor positions, and run out either dangerously so or enough to make the experience just a bit unpleasant. That's no precedent worthy of respecting. Good sport routes can and often are spoilt by poor bolting. It's about the moves, and yes the character, as long as that character isn't the dangerous awkward weirdo nobody likes.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Hi Pete.

I think that generalises things a bit too much here.

Ru's remarks about the historical placement was because of the position of the original drilled threads. However, there's only a vague precedent for that sort of thing, battled over on certain routes.

Perhaps more aligned with your sentiment, in this case, is that it results in a fantastic route not being bolted particularly well.

I don't think anyone should drill a small hole, 8mm or otherwise, on the premise that no one will notice - they will.

I'm certainly not against dogging bolts, but if they're in, they should be there properly in my opinion.

[petejh]

I am talking generally, because I obviously have no skin in the peak game. I agree btw, if you want a dogging bolt then do it properly for all.
The removable bolt thing is just one of those interesting tricks, a bit like other 'tricks' I know of like resin bolts that look like 'pegs' on trad cliffs. And I disagree with you - I really don't think many people would notice (or think much of it if they did notice) an 8mm hole unless someone told you about it.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I obviously have no skin in the peak game.

Who has Pete? 

[Ru]

Perhaps more aligned with your sentiment, in this case, is that it results in a fantastic route not being bolted particularly well.

It's not bolted badly, it's just that your body doesn't hang directly over the crux holds meaning that you have to pull onto the rock to work out where your feet go and get the body positions. If it were a boulder problem you would have to do this anyway. From what I remember the crux slot is within reach when sat on the bolt, if slightly over to one side. If the slot was slightly easier to hold, no-one would be complaining. Putting dogging bolts in where the crux moves are between bolts, or if the bolt is a few feet off to the side is one thing, but shifting bolts 6 inches here and there is a bit too thin end of the wedge ish. I don't really get sentimental about drilling bits of rock, but I do get uncomfortable with the concept of finding a bolt is in a slightly less than ideal position and drilling a convenience hole a few inches away, especially on something like Revelations.

[shark]

Leave it. Everyone that's ever done it has done it with the bolt in that place

They haven't had a choice

whilst it's not perfectly placed, it's not that bad either.

Its rubbish. Too high and too far left - see photo below

it's hardly onerous doing the one 5c move to get into the right hand slot from the floor.

5c! more like hard 6a or 6b

the bolts replaced like-for-like the drilled threads that protected the original ascent.

The drilled threads may have been fine for the ground up yo-yo style which was the way it was originally climbed but is a pain in the arse for working then redpointing





The bolt shown clipped is the first bolt on the route which is pre-clipped.

The route starts at the shallow corner and you get your left hand in the tight horizontal slot at its top with your left hand smear up on your right foot to reach up and right over the bulge to the infamous slot pocket you then get a left toe on the rib of the groove and get a right heel/toe where the first slot is to crank up to a high flake.

At any point you come off you swing off and out nearly touching the ground. The first bolt is obviously too high and too far left to work properly in finding the best position for the heel/toe for example

[Stu Littlefair]

Now the specific route is revealed, some thoughts:

1) Pete. I was specifically referring to 12mm holes in my reply. I’d be more relaxed about an 8mm hole but still don’t like it as an idea. I’ve used plenty of bolt holes as holds/intermediates and one in the middle of revelations crux would change it massively. If a dogging bolt goes in, it has to be permanent.

2) Unlike ru, I’m not too concerned by the historical argument in this particular case. Don’t know why, it just doesn’t bother me. Maybe because the crux has evolved so much over the years?

3) I find myself agreeing with TB, I can’t see how a dogging bolt actually helps in this specific instance. To meaningfully work one of the moves on Rev, you’ve got to

  a) have RH in the slot and LH in the starting hold (in which case you might as well pull off the ground)
  b) pull on from slot and first intermediate with LH, which you can do off the bolt anyway.

A dogging bolt would allow you to do practice the heel hook move, but only from a body position you wouldn’t get into anyway, so it would be a waste of time, IMO

[Stu Littlefair]

In fact, I believe there’s already an old bolt hole down and left from the slot: if you want a “dogging bolt” just put a slider in that or something...

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Agree with a lot of those points Stu.

It does sound as though things could be improved quite a bit - mostly in my finger strength in that pocket tbh 

This is a route which should be bolted as well as possible, in my opinion.

[shark]

In fact, I believe there’s already an old bolt hole down and left from the slot: if you want a “dogging bolt” just put a slider in that or something...

You mean the useful intermediate hold..

[Nigel]

In fact, I believe there’s already an old bolt hole down and left from the slot: if you want a “dogging bolt” just put a slider in that or something...

You mean the useful intermediate hold..

I thought that! I use it for lh when putting heel in. Might be a better hold with a slider in....cheers stu!

[petejh]

Stu, go down to B&Q and examine an 8mm drill bit - you'll find you won't get your thinnest digit in an 8mm hole. Then come back and admit that even you aren't capable of using an 8mm drill hole as an intermediate 

Saying an 8mm drill hole in the middle of the crux of Revelations anyclimbanywhere would 'change it massively'' is pure silliness. I don't think temporary 8mm bolts are the way to go btw.

[Stu Littlefair]

Sometimes, Pete, you really seem to be trying to make an argument out of nowhere.

For the second time, and in bold

i was specifically referring to 12mm bolt holes.

The fact that there is already an empty bolt hole here which is being described as “the useful intermediate” should be clear enough.

[petejh]

Fair enough for 12mm. But why even bother saying you can use 12mm holes as intermediates if what was being discussed is 8mm holes.